Premillennialism safe house

[Jeffwhosoever]

So what do you think about the nation of Israel right now?

 

[Timtofly]

So what do you think about the nation of Israel right now?

God will choose sheep from every Nation. God will choose goats from every nation. God's Israel is still scattered.

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

He is not gathering from just Israel. He is gathering Israel out of all Nations. Also this gathering takes place after the Second Coming, not leading up to the Second Coming. The fig tree in bloom is not the gathering, so what Israel is today, will not be the same after the Second Coming.

 

[Randy777]

I think this is who "God" calls His children. All others perish.
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

That covenant Jesus introduced in His blood started first in Israel.

In REV 11 the holy city, (Jerusalem), is figuratively called by God Sodom and Egypt. A nation does not bring salvation to its people.

Then they gathered around him and asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?"

We don't know the day or hour but the Kingdom of the Son of Man can never be destroyed.

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

On that day the Kingdoms of the whole world will become the Kingdom of God and His Christ.

 

[JulieB67]

Some other verses that are premil, when the apostles of Acts as Christ in 1:6,

Acts 1:6 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"
So even though this is "after" Christ has risen we are still looking for restoration of all things, it hasn't happened yet. Some would claim this already happened when Christ resurrected.

He answers,

Acts 1:7 "And He said unto them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power."

Which mirrors, Paul's teachings in 1st Thess,

I Thessalonians 5:1 "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." We all know this is talking about God's wrath.

And one was thinking peace and safety after the destruction in 70AD.

 

[Timtofly]

It was not really about before or after, in the first few centuries. There were believers who taught there would be a literal 1000 year Kingdom on earth. John pointed that out in Revelation 20. That is what they went by.

No one was post, because only Christ, Himself could bring the kingdom.

By the time of Augustine, he convinced folks there is no coming millennium at all. Really? Some theologian became the authority on whether or not a Millennial Reign would happen?

I think post was in opposition to the thought there was no millennium. The church would usher in the second coming after a millennium, then Christ would return. The new Amil once again refute post and the new surge of pre-mill thought. Pre-mill cannot be a backlash against either post or amill. One claim is the Jesuits used it as a backlash. Just reading Revelation itself is where Chiliast thought comes from. That there is a literal 1000 years between the Second Coming and the NHNE comes straight from the text of God's Word. Theology has to interpret the plain text reading, and literally take the passage out if context. Or apply so much symbolism to make it say something different. There is no coming of Jesus in Revelation 20:7-10. In the next scene current heaven and earth pass away.

John does not develop what this 1000 years consist of, outside the fact, Satan is bound. Those resurrected are priest, indicating a temple of some kind. They are rulers over earth. However I do disagree with the thought sin continues. Daniel 9 and the 70 week promise is definitely over at the end of the 7th Trumpet. No more sin, and transgression. There is a bodily resurrection. The only people are those resurrected. They will have to populate the earth, to have people, offspring, to rule over. This is a reign and priesthood of founding fathers over new nations.

Isaiah 65 seems to indicate rebellious children will be literally killed for breaking the law. Not that people will be naturally born sinners. It is not easy to see how humans can live without evil. If a thought comes, it would not be sin. But if any act on a stray thought that would break a law, such action would be dealt with swiftly, and death would be the only sentence handed down. The rule of the iron rod cannot allow sinful nature to take hold and be passed from parent to child. Saying that those born in Adam's sinful flesh live on earth goes against the very point of a resurrection, and iron rod rule. They would not be allowed to exist period. This is a Sabbath millennium, and sin will not exist.

As for the GWT, it has to appear at the 6th Seal. At the end of the Millennium, it alone will still be, while heaven and earth pass away, until the NHNE become a reality. That all on earth living at that time, minus the billions just consumed by fire, are standing before the GWT should be understood. Are they glorified at that point, or do they continue living on the earth, while the New Jerusalem descends. I tend to think both are possible. Multiplying more humans on earth may go on, in a different way, besides being born as a baby. When God created current existence the sons of God multiplied on earth as full glorified beings.

The point about currently having babies in Paradise as non-existent; does not mean they cannot. It means they do not. Babies born on earth, have populated Paradise. Living on earth has been the means for Adam's offspring to populate Paradise. The process does not need to be repeated again in Paradise. Paradise is added to daily. Jesus points that out in John 3. You have to be born of flesh first, here on earth, then by choice, one is born again into the family in Paradise. Earth is the temporary dwelling place, while Paradise is the forever dwelling place.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I really don't understand how Revelation 20 can be interpreted in any other way than premillennial. Everything else requires a ton of symbolism and "smoke and mirrors" when the solution is so straightforward in Scripture. Occam's razor backs us up.

 

[St. Helens]

ADMIN HAT ON

It's been decided that the Premill safehouse is for what Premill futurists have in common. Historic Premillennialism is about not only Christ returning before the Millennium but also reigning on Earth from Jerusalem. No posts about a Heavenly Millennial reign will be allowed here but you may post regarding Christ returning before the Millennium and other things that align with Historic Premillennialism.

Debating whether the Millennium is Earthly or Heavenly can be debated in the main forum but not in this safe house.
ADMIN HAT OFF​

 

[bannerman]

What should we make of Zechariah 14:16-19 then? Those verses indicate there are mortal survivors as of the 2nd coming. But how could there be if there are no survivors remaining, according to how some of you are interpreting Revelation 19? How can the OT be saying one thing, and the NT is saying something entirely different?

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


If both accounts pertain to the 2nd coming, how can there be zero survivors remaining, per the latter, and many survivors remaining, per the former? That is a contradiction, therefore we need to interpret the latter in light of the former, apparently. And besides, it is only those gathered together with the beast that are killed in Revelation 19 to begin with. Not everyone on the entire planet would be gathered together with the beast at the time, would they?

 

[bannerman]

Yes there will be mortal survivors and so the church will be immortals living among mortals. The church will have a job on it's hands administering God's Kingdom to the mortal who hated Jesus and murdered us before Jesus returned. But remember this will be for a thousand years and there will likely be a thousand generations of children who will only know Jesus as King and ruler. They will only know peace and no war.

So they may join our ranks in faith in the second resurrection.

 

[Randy777]

Yes there will be mortal survivors and so the church will be immortals living among mortals. The church will have a job on it's hands administering God's Kingdom to the mortal who hated Jesus and murdered us before Jesus returned. But remember this will be for a thousand years and there will likely be a thousand generations of children who will only know Jesus as King and ruler. They will only know peace and no war.

So they may join our ranks in faith in the second resurrection.

I am premil and agree with you in part.
Rev 2
To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’ b —just as I have received authority from my Father.

However if we set revelation aside for a moment and note what was well known and understood about the resurrection it was on the last day. The Lord would gather His own from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth. A bodily resurrection of us all. Now we go back to revelation and we note in the 1st resurrection there were those that remained faithful to Jesus. Therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.

Only two resurrections. Those who rise to live (1st)and those who rise to be condemned (2nd)

 

[Timtofly]

Yes there will be mortal survivors and so the church will be immortals living among mortals. The church will have a job on it's hands administering God's Kingdom to the mortal who hated Jesus and murdered us before Jesus returned. But remember this will be for a thousand years and there will likely be a thousand generations of children who will only know Jesus as King and ruler. They will only know peace and no war.

So they may join our ranks in faith in the second resurrection.

The Millennium starts out with a resurrection of those killed during the GT and the 42 months given to Satan. Since the church is not on earth and not killed during the GT and the 42 months, that resurrection is not for the church. Neither is the Millennium. The 1000 year reign is for those just resurrected. Yes all of Adam's flesh and blood were dead. Then some were resurrected in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They have 40 generations of offspring. The next generation has 39 generations of offspring. But not just one generation. Those resurrected will have children for hundreds of years. Their children will have children for hundreds of years. There is no sin or death.

But a child that rebels prior to turning 100 will be punished with death. Rebellion will not be tolerated. So no one is training old Adamic flesh to be good, and the church is already glorified and cannot mix in with those on the earth. The church will remain in Paradise for 1000 years until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE.

Not sure if that is considered breaking the rules of classic pre-mill, but how can the bride come down in the New Jerusalem if they are on the earth when it happens? The 1000 year reign was prophesied to the OT Israel, not to the NT church. It is physical Israel's inheritance, once they turn back to God, and God heals their physical condition. That is the point of the tribulation and cleansing the earth. The Second Coming fulfills Daniel 9:24 for Israel. So Israel will rule over restored and sin free nations who were all the firstfruits of the millennium hand picked by Jesus and the angels, along with the 144k of Israel. The tribulation is the final harvest after the church is glorified. This final harvest will inherit the earth.

 

[Randy777]

The Millennium starts out with a resurrection of those killed during the GT and the 42 months given to Satan. Since the church is not on earth and not killed during the GT and the 42 months, that resurrection is not for the church. Neither is the Millennium. The 1000 year reign is for those just resurrected. Yes all of Adam's flesh and blood were dead. Then some were resurrected in permanent incorruptible physical bodies. They have 40 generations of offspring. The next generation has 39 generations of offspring. But not just one generation. Those resurrected will have children for hundreds of years. Their children will have children for hundreds of years. There is no sin or death.

But a child that rebels prior to turning 100 will be punished with death. Rebellion will not be tolerated. So no one is training old Adamic flesh to be good, and the church is already glorified and cannot mix in with those on the earth. The church will remain in Paradise for 1000 years until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE.

Not sure if that is considered breaking the rules of classic pre-mill, but how can the bride come down in the New Jerusalem if they are on the earth when it happens? The 1000 year reign was prophesied to the OT Israel, not to the NT church. It is physical Israel's inheritance, once they turn back to God, and God heals their physical condition. That is the point of the tribulation and cleansing the earth. The Second Coming fulfills Daniel 9:24 for Israel. So Israel will rule over restored and sin free nations who were all the firstfruits of the millennium hand picked by Jesus and the angels, along with the 144k of Israel. The tribulation is the final harvest after the church is glorified. This final harvest will inherit the earth.

The resurrection Jesus spoke of is on the last day.
He would send His angels to gather His elect from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth. The resurrection of us all. Those left alive on earth caught up.

This applies to all.
This is my Father’s will: that all who see the Son and believe in him will have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

It is noted in the first resurrection as spoken of in the book of revelation those that remained faithful to Jesus. Therefore those not raised on that day must be those who suffer.

Rev 16:15 - A coming of the Lord on the last day of this age.
“Look, I come like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

One resurrection of those in Christ to eternal life at the beginning of the 1000 years.
One resurrection of the wicked to be condemned after the 1000 years ended.
2nd res -The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.

 

[BobRyan]

So what do you think about the nation of Israel right now?

Is there a limit, boundary to what we are allowed to say we think about that topic on this thread?

 

[Randy777]

So what do you think about the nation of Israel right now?

I think at the time of the end God brings those willing to listen into the body of Christ through the signs given in Rev 11.
At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

As in Zach 14 at the time of the end the mount of olives is split in two to make a way of escape from the surrounding armies. Those armies are destroyed by a coming of the Lord not man.

I think the earthquake in Rev 11 and the mount of olives being split in two is connected as it is the same city and the same time of the end.

Zach 14
You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

So I see both spiritual and military help from God at the time of the end for Israel and all Israel will be saved.

In the mean time these are those God calls His children
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

I agree with that interpretation.

 

[Jeffwhosoever]

Is there a limit, boundary to what we are allowed to say we think about that topic on this thread?[/QUOTE

From Statement of Purpose for the main subforum. I assume it applies here as well:

• Full preterism is not allowed.
• Date setting or date speculation is not allowed.
• No Personal Prophecy (prophetic utterance) allowed.
• Do not refer to specific religious leaders (alive or deceased) as the antichrist, the beast, or the false prophet.
• Discussion or promotion of any form of serpent seed doctrine that dehumanizes existing groups of people is not allowed.
• Please respect the guidelines and purpose of the safehouse threads as stated in the OP's of the Safehouse threads.

 

[BobRyan]

From Statement of Purpose for the main subforum. I assume it applies here as well:

• Full preterism is not allowed.

I assume this part of your post was to address the limits here about Israel - but I don't know what full preterism has to do with it.

"Full Preterism is the belief that the Bible teaches the Second Coming, judgment and resurrection of the living and dead took place at the end of the Old Covenant age"​

Or are you saying that discussing that question about the state of Israel and God's purpose for them can be discussed as long as it does not go to the extreme listed above for full preterism or any of the other things listed in that rule? (Which is basically saying the topic is allowed here, and open for discussion as I read it)

 

[Timtofly]

I assume this part of your post was to address the limits here about Israel - but I don't know what full preterism has to do with it.

"Full Preterism is the belief that the Bible teaches the Second Coming, judgment and resurrection of the living and dead took place at the end of the Old Covenant age"​

Or are you saying that discussing that question about the state of Israel and God's purpose for them can be discussed as long as it does not go to the extreme listed above for full preterism or any of the other things listed in that rule? (Which is basically saying the topic is allowed here, and open for discussion as I read it)

This thread is really not for debating. It is for having friendly discussions between Premil adherents without other types of eschatology looking down their judgmental noses at other types of eschatology. So really not even a thread to discuss other types either. Post 127 even puts a limit on Premil thoughts as well. I do not think we can discuss the actual Millennium outside the classic historical view, whatever that is. I think that means no one can challenge the accepted norms.

 

[chad kincham]

Hi ewq,

Thank you for that information. However we still need more scriptures to clarify where the Body of Christ will reign with the Lord.

Marilyn.

Revelation 3:12 is confirmation - also if Jesus and the redeemed were ruling in heaven, why would Satan, after his release from the bottomless pit, assemble an army to attack the holy city, Jerusalem, if all the saints and Jesus were in heaven?

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

That temple is in the city New Jerusalem that comes down to earth, and Revelation 21 states that we will be in that city forever, along with God and the lamb.

 

[chad kincham]

Hi ewq,

The `saints.` Well there are lots of saints.

1. The saints in the Body of Christ will be in the third heaven ruling with the Lord.
2. The saints who were martyred in the trib, will rule on earth with Israel.
3. The saints in the nation of Israel, (who turned to the Lord) will be on earth ruling over the nations.
4. The saints of the Old Testament will still be in the general assembly. (Heb. 12: 23 `just men`)
5. The saints of the Great Multitude will also be in the general assembly awaiting their inheritance - the new earth. (see palm branches (Rev. 7: 9) as a symbol of the Feast of tabernacles in the new earth.)

Lots of `saints` there. Marilyn.

There are a lot of prophecies that state that Jesus will rule literally and physically on the earth, in the city of Jerusalem, on the throne of David, forever.

Currently, Jesus is doing what the father said, to sit down at His right hand UNTIL He makes the enemies of Jesus, into His footstool.