Premillennialism safe house

[Timtofly]

Rev 20 calls that "the first resurrection" - because John is looking into the future - you have a previous resurrection in your list - the one in Matthew 27... but that is in John's past so he does not mention it.. and besides Rev 19 is describing the second coming - so definitely the first resurrection happens at the second coming.... premill.

I think most have been taught only the two second resurrections. The rapture and the GWT. Neither of the second events are actual resurrections. I agree that both the first resurrections do not really apply to the church age. The first first was the firstfruits of the church. The second first are the firstfruits of the Millennium. The living church can only rise, they never feel the sting of death. The living church is the condition between resurrections. Isaiah 65 in describing the coming millennium, say only those cursed will die. There does not seem to be death by natural causes.

 

[BobRyan]

I think most have been taught only the two second resurrections.

the "two second resurrections"??? seriously?

Rev 20 -
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

the "two second resurrections"??? seriously?

Blame the church, not me. I am just pointing out the unobvious.

 

[BobRyan]

Blame the church, not me. I am just pointing out the unobvious.

Well you have a point there if they are leaving stuff out.

In the mean time - if we give John his due -- with Rev 20:4-5 as the "first resurrection" which clearly happens at the Rev 19 second-coming event.... then... that means... 1 Thess 4 is describing the "first resurrection" not the second resurrection.

 

[Timtofly]

Well you have a point there if they are leaving stuff out.

In the mean time - if we give John his due -- with Rev 20:4-5 as the "first resurrection" which clearly happens at the Rev 19 second-coming event.... then... that means... 1 Thess 4 is describing the "first resurrection" not the second resurrection.

Why does a living body need a resurrection?

If you think the church belongs in the world instead of the temple in Revelation 7, where does it say people in glorified bodies are running around as light in the darkness? Why would a glorified body be put to death? Why would this harvest time not be a harvest time? Harvest means all souls go somewhere. Paul says the living church meets The Lord in the air. How do we go from in the air to needing a body resurrection?

 

[ewq1938]

I think most have been taught only the two second resurrections. The rapture and the GWT.

The rapture isn't a resurrection. A rapture means someone being moved from one place to another, usually upwards. "the Rapture" is when all the saved survivors of the GT are moved from the ground to the clouds in order to meet Christ there. The resurrection of the dead had already happened before the rapture happens to the living saved mortals.

 

[Timtofly]

The rapture isn't a resurrection. A rapture means someone being moved from one place to another, usually upwards. "the Rapture" is when all the saved survivors of the GT are moved from the ground to the clouds in order to meet Christ there. The resurrection of the dead had already happened before the rapture happens to the living saved mortals.

Why is the rapture not when Jesus comes as the Lamb in the clouds? Either the church leaves, or the church is running around with everyone on earth hiding from God. John does not mention the church. John new the church was covered by Paul. Then he said in the next chapter the state of the church. Either all were with God in the temple of God, or there were 144K Jewish male virgins on earth. Sort of sexist that disciples can only be men, but we need to get over ourselves. Either you are literally in the church in the temple, a sealed Jewish male virgin, or on earth about ready to die over the next few years.

All will be dead fom the 6th seal on. It is the day of harvest and ends in God's wrath. Go for it. All we be dead. Those waiting to be resurrected in Revelation 20, will have to die. They will feel the sting of death. They may endure till Satan asks if they want the mark. They will have to have their head cut off.

Even the 144K are with Christ when He destroys all left living at Armageddon. Then the Resurrection of Revelation 20 happens. How can any one in the church endure to get their heads cut off? It is not a resurrection of the living. It is a resurrection of the dead.

 

[Running2win]

Why is the rapture not when Jesus comes as the Lamb in the clouds? Either the church leaves, or the church is running around with everyone on earth hiding from God. John does not mention the church. John new the church was covered by Paul. Then he said in the next chapter the state of the church. Either all were with God in the temple of God, or there were 144K Jewish male virgins on earth. Sort of sexist that disciples can only be men, but we need to get over ourselves. Either you are literally in the church in the temple, a sealed Jewish male virgin, or on earth about ready to die over the next few years.

All will be dead fom the 6th seal on. It is the day of harvest and ends in God's wrath. Go for it. All we be dead. Those waiting to be resurrected in Revelation 20, will have to die. They will feel the sting of death. They may endure till Satan asks if they want the mark. They will have to have their head cut off.

Even the 144K are with Christ when He destroys all left living at Armageddon. Then the Resurrection of Revelation 20 happens. How can any one in the church endure to get their heads cut off? It is not a resurrection of the living. It is a resurrection of the dead.

So, new here and I've read some of the post. I'm pre-mill but also pre-wrath.
Some of what you say sounds kind of strange to me?

The dead in Christ rises first (their bodies from the grave/earth), then we who are alive and remain are changed (we get our new bodies without dying). People that die today go to heaven (their souls), their bodies await the resurrection when their souls will be put into their new glorious body that God will raise thus:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The souls under the altar show that the soul has a form, but they are not resurrected yet. It's the same way when we die now: body dies, goes into the grave, turns into dust, and the soul goes to heaven to await the resurrection.

The unsaved go to hades. Abrahams bosom is just another name for Heaven or Paradise. Jesus taught on the reality of heaven and hell in Luke 16. Rev 2:7, makes it clear that Paradise is the same place where the tree of life is. Jesus told the thief in Luke 23:43, that the very day He died on the cross he would be with Him in Paradise.

So I disagree on the compartment theory of saints in the OT being in the ground. Did Jesus come from Heaven or the ground? Was not Elijah taken into Heaven?

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

The difference in the Pre-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib, is the timing of when Jesus comes back and the resurrection/rapture takes place, and of course how it all fits together:

Pre-Trib a secret unexpected coming before the 70th week and another coming or parousia at Rev 19-20.
Pre-Wrath One coming or parousia at the six seal, when God will then be active and present in the earths affairs during the day of the Lord (trumpet and bowl judgments) cumulating with Jesus taking possession of the Kingdom in Rev 19-20.
Post-Trib One coming at Rev 19-20 and immediately taking possession of the kingdom.

All believe it is pre-mill, before the MK starts. Neither of the three viewpoints deny a literal physical resurrection. Cults deny a physical resurrection and always have. That is what 1st Cor 15 is all about the necessity of a physical resurrection.


12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.



The Order of Resurrection

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[Timtofly]

So, new here and I've read some of the post. I'm pre-mill but also pre-wrath.
Some of what you say sounds kind of strange to me?

The dead in Christ rises first (their bodies from the grave/earth), then we who are alive and remain are changed (we get our new bodies without dying). People that die today go to heaven (their souls), their bodies await the resurrection when their souls will be put into their new glorious body that God will raise thus:

13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The souls under the altar show that the soul has a form, but they are not resurrected yet. It's the same way when we die now: body dies, goes into the grave, turns into dust, and the soul goes to heaven to await the resurrection.

The unsaved go to hades. Abrahams bosom is just another name for Heaven or Paradise. Jesus taught on the reality of heaven and hell in Luke 16. Rev 2:7, makes it clear that Paradise is the same place where the tree of life is. Jesus told the thief in Luke 23:43, that the very day He died on the cross he would be with Him in Paradise.

So I disagree on the compartment theory of saints in the OT being in the ground. Did Jesus come from Heaven or the ground? Was not Elijah taken into Heaven?

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

The difference in the Pre-Trib, Pre-Wrath, and Post-Trib, is the timing of when Jesus comes back and the resurrection/rapture takes place, and of course how it all fits together:

Pre-Trib a secret unexpected coming before the 70th week and another coming or parousia at Rev 19-20.
Pre-Wrath One coming or parousia at the six seal, when God will then be active and present in the earths affairs during the day of the Lord (trumpet and bowl judgments) cumulating with Jesus taking possession of the Kingdom in Rev 19-20.
Post-Trib One coming at Rev 19-20 and immediately taking possession of the kingdom.

All believe it is pre-mill, before the MK starts. Neither of the three viewpoints deny a literal physical resurrection. Cults deny a physical resurrection and always have. That is what 1st Cor 15 is all about the necessity of a physical resurrection.


12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.



The Order of Resurrection

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight. )
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paradise has been the temple of God in heaven. Jesus never called sheol, Paradise. Jesus called sheol Abraham's bosom. Until the physical death of Jesus Christ on the Cross, no one could enter Paradise. The Atonement had to be placed on the alter. After the Atonement, the OT saints left Abraham's bosom and entered Paradise. John calls Paradise under the alter. I am not sure why some break up the church into different groups. God has redeemed His people (all descendants of Adam) unto Himself. All in the Lamb's book of life, redeemed sons of God, in God's image is the whole church. OT and NT are all the same in Christ. All who die in Christ even today are all the same in Christ in the same place. All the dead did rise and have been raised first.

According to Paul all dead in Christ since the fall until this minute are under the alter in incorruptible bodies, but until the living are raptured, all are waiting their spirit to be joined in glorified form. The church is complete by the 7th seal. All in glorified bodies. Saints called sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders will die, but resurrected on the first day of the Millennium. They do not have glorified bodies. They have biological bodies to populate the earth for 1000 years, and populate the new earth at the end of the Millennium. According to Revelation 7, the whole church will be in the temple of God during the Millennium. Then in the New Jerusalem coming down from the New heavens onto the New earth.

 

[Running2win]

2 Corinthians 5:1-8
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight. )
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paradise has been the temple of God in heaven. Jesus never called sheol, Paradise. Jesus called sheol Abraham's bosom. Until the physical death of Jesus Christ on the Cross, no one could enter Paradise. The Atonement had to be placed on the alter. After the Atonement, the OT saints left Abraham's bosom and entered Paradise. John calls Paradise under the alter. I am not sure why some break up the church into different groups. God has redeemed His people (all descendants of Adam) unto Himself. All in the Lamb's book of life, redeemed sons of God, in God's image is the whole church. OT and NT are all the same in Christ. All who die in Christ even today are all the same in Christ in the same place. All the dead did rise and have been raised first.

According to Paul all dead in Christ since the fall until this minute are under the alter in incorruptible bodies, but until the living are raptured, all are waiting their spirit to be joined in glorified form. The church is complete by the 7th seal. All in glorified bodies. Saints called sheep and wheat during the Trumpets and Thunders will die, but resurrected on the first day of the Millennium. They do not have glorified bodies. They have biological bodies to populate the earth for 1000 years, and populate the new earth at the end of the Millennium. According to Revelation 7, the whole church will be in the temple of God during the Millennium. Then in the New Jerusalem coming down from the New heavens onto the New earth.

The Temple is not called Paradise, but where the tree of life is, in the garden of God, this is in the heavenly Jerusalem. There is no Temple in the city. And you are assuming that people didn't go to Paradise in the OT.

Sheol and Hades are the realms of the unseen and according to Jesus Angels carry the souls to be there. They are in a different, spiritual dimension where both can see into the other although they are far apart. This is Jesus teaching us, not Jewish sages or Baptist preachers. Who are we going to trust?

Again, Paul does not say everyone is under the altar, only the souls of them who die in the great trib are there , and it is John who writes this.

Nobody has been raised from the dead except a wave grain offering of the 24 elders in the day of Jesus. We all await the resurrection to get our new bodies, this is the order Paul laid down, not you. You need to read a little closer IMO.


7‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

 

[ewq1938]

Again, Paul does not say everyone is under the altar, only the souls of them who die in the great trib are there , and it is John who writes this.

Those souls had died before the great Trib started. They are told to wait until their brethren die as they did which is a reference to the GT.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

That little season also known as the 42 month GT is the short time Satan has to persecute the remnant of the woman's seed who are Christians as found in the last verse of Revelation 12.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[Timtofly]

The Temple is not called Paradise, but where the tree of life is, in the garden of God, this is in the heavenly Jerusalem. There is no Temple in the city. And you are assuming that people didn't go to Paradise in the OT.

Sheol and Hades are the realms of the unseen and according to Jesus Angels carry the souls to be there. They are in a different, spiritual dimension where both can see into the other although they are far apart. This is Jesus teaching us, not Jewish sages or Baptist preachers. Who are we going to trust?

Again, Paul does not say everyone is under the altar, only the souls of them who die in the great trib are there , and it is John who writes this.

Nobody has been raised from the dead except a wave grain offering of the 24 elders in the day of Jesus. We all await the resurrection to get our new bodies, this is the order Paul laid down, not you. You need to read a little closer IMO.


7‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

Jesus planted a Garden with the tree of life in it. We are Adam's descendants. Where else would the temple be? Abel kept the sacrifices going until Cain killed him. Then Cain was banned. Paradise is the term for Garden. Paradise is in heaven. That is what your verses point out. No, Paradise has been closed except to Enoch and presumably Moses, because Jude says Satan never got the body of Moses. No, Jesus called sheol Abraham's bosom, because no one could enter Paradise as a fallen human in Adam. Only in Christ on the cross and the Atonement opened Paradise.

In Adam all are dead and in sheol. In Christ all were made alive into Paradise. The temple, the alter, started in the Garden. The Garden was moved to heaven. Then Noah's Flood destroyed the old world. Jesus in His teaching said the dead were in sheol, Abraham's bosom. Then on The Cross, Jesus told the thief he would be in Paradise that day. Jesus died, opened Paradise. A few hours later the soldiers killed the thief. The thief went straight to Paradise. The temple of God with God on the throne. The Garden, Paradise, the temple in Revelation 7 has always been the place prepared for the church. The church is all those restored to the position of being a son of God like Adam was when God placed Adam in the Garden.

Some claim the body needs to be raised. A glorified body does not need to be raised. Flesh and blood cannot enter Paradise. That is why Adam was banned. If those in seal 5 are getting robes of white, a glorified body, why does the whole church from Abel to Christ or from Christ until now have to wait a little season? The dead in Christ do not have to wait for people killed in the future. Those alive cannot prevent them who die first. John is indicating that in seal 5 and 6, the whole church will be complete and in glorified bodies. Then between seal 6 and 7 in Revelation 7, the 144K are sealed. The church is complete. The season is over. The 7th seal is opened. The Trumpets begin the harvest of the sheep and goats.

By the Second Coming all humanity will be dead, or there will be Satan's 3.5 years, some will be beheaded some will be removed from the Lamb's book of life and be marked with 666. Any who have the mark will never be found in the book of life. Then the battle of Armageddon and all humanity has to die. It is appointed unto man, once to die, and after this the judgment. No living human can escape death. If there is never a rapture, then Paul was wrong when he claimed some would be alive and meet the Lord in the air. The Lord came in seal 6. Before all would be killed in the harvest of the Trumpets, Thunders, and the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Running2win]

Those souls had died before the great Trib started. They are told to wait until their brethren die as they did which is a reference to the GT.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

That little season also known as the 42 month GT is the short time Satan has to persecute the remnant of the woman's seed who are Christians as found in the last verse of Revelation 12.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The seal has just been cracked and then we read of the souls under the altar. But at this time they have already been killed by beheading and the full number are waiting to be fulfilled. Why?

If you read the fourth seal, this is when the beheading started (the wild beasts is reference to soldiers of the Beast empire, under his authority). If you check, this is the same Greek word for the Beasts rising out of the sea and land-but plural, which is different from the living creatures around the throne. These are wild beasts and have 3.5 years of power. So the connection is solid that the Beast takes power and gets authority to kill in the the middle of the 70th week is during the 4th seal.

It's a mistake I made before to.

beasts
θηρίων (thēriōn)
Noun - Genitive Neuter Plural
Strong's Greek 2342: Properly: a wild beast, hence: any animal; met: a brute. Diminutive from the same as thera; a dangerous animal.

1And the dragon stood on the sand of the seashore. Then I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns [were] ten diadems, and on his heads [were] blasphemous names. 2And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like [those] of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority. 3[I saw] one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed [and followed] after the beast; 4they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?" 5There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him. 6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, [that is], those who dwell in heaven.

7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, [everyone] whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain. 9If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10If anyone [is destined] for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

The Fourth Seal—Death

7When the Lamb broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.” 8I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. Authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.



The Fifth Seal—Martyrs

9When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

 

[Randy777]

The Temple is not called Paradise, but where the tree of life is, in the garden of God, this is in the heavenly Jerusalem. There is no Temple in the city. And you are assuming that people didn't go to Paradise in the OT.

Sheol and Hades are the realms of the unseen and according to Jesus Angels carry the souls to be there. They are in a different, spiritual dimension where both can see into the other although they are far apart. This is Jesus teaching us, not Jewish sages or Baptist preachers. Who are we going to trust?

Again, Paul does not say everyone is under the altar, only the souls of them who die in the great trib are there , and it is John who writes this.

Nobody has been raised from the dead except a wave grain offering of the 24 elders in the day of Jesus. We all await the resurrection to get our new bodies, this is the order Paul laid down, not you. You need to read a little closer IMO.


7‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

1Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations

18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.” 22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

The Lord returns in the end to destroy the beast at the battle of God almighty. Rev 16:15
The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. The angel of the abyss is released in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump. So the 5th to 7th trump are concurrent with the bowl judgments. The reign of the beast. And Rev 16:15 would be in the days of the 7th trump when the kingdoms of the whole world become the kingdom of God and of His Christ. The reign of the beast is the period of the great tribulation. He will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on this earth. And again the beast and his armies are not destroyed/defeated by man but by the Lord Jesus and those that follow Him. The armies of heaven. Jesus will pronounce judgment in favor of the saints of the most high. The world that states, "who can make war with the beast", will be shocked and surprised by the sudden appearance of Jesus on that last day. And before all these things take place the 2 witnesses in Rev 11 will be a sign that can't be mistaken. After their testimony has been completed, 1260 days, it is the beast who is finally allowed by God to overpower them. Those that take joy in their deaths will fall to the lie of the beast.

 

[Running2win]

Jesus planted a Garden with the tree of life in it. We are Adam's descendants. Where else would the temple be? Abel kept the sacrifices going until Cain killed him. Then Cain was banned. Paradise is the term for Garden. Paradise is in heaven. That is what your verses point out. No, Paradise has been closed except to Enoch and presumably Moses, because Jude says Satan never got the body of Moses. No, Jesus called sheol Abraham's bosom, because no one could enter Paradise as a fallen human in Adam. Only in Christ on the cross and the Atonement opened Paradise.

In Adam all are dead and in sheol. In Christ all were made alive into Paradise. The temple, the alter, started in the Garden. The Garden was moved to heaven. Then Noah's Flood destroyed the old world. Jesus in His teaching said the dead were in sheol, Abraham's bosom. Then on The Cross, Jesus told the thief he would be in Paradise that day. Jesus died, opened Paradise. A few hours later the soldiers killed the thief. The thief went straight to Paradise. The temple of God with God on the throne. The Garden, Paradise, the temple in Revelation 7 has always been the place prepared for the church. The church is all those restored to the position of being a son of God like Adam was when God placed Adam in the Garden.

Some claim the body needs to be raised. A glorified body does not need to be raised. Flesh and blood cannot enter Paradise. That is why Adam was banned. If those in seal 5 are getting robes of white, a glorified body, why does the whole church from Abel to Christ or from Christ until now have to wait a little season? The dead in Christ do not have to wait for people killed in the future. Those alive cannot prevent them who die first. John is indicating that in seal 5 and 6, the whole church will be complete and in glorified bodies. Then between seal 6 and 7 in Revelation 7, the 144K are sealed. The church is complete. The season is over. The 7th seal is opened. The Trumpets begin the harvest of the sheep and goats.

By the Second Coming all humanity will be dead, or there will be Satan's 3.5 years, some will be beheaded some will be removed from the Lamb's book of life and be marked with 666. Any who have the mark will never be found in the book of life. Then the battle of Armageddon and all humanity has to die. It is appointed unto man, once to die, and after this the judgment. No living human can escape death. If there is never a rapture, then Paul was wrong when he claimed some would be alive and meet the Lord in the air. The Lord came in seal 6. Before all would be killed in the harvest of the Trumpets, Thunders, and the battle of Armageddon.

You don't make any sense.
The souls under the altar are just that, souls. The white robe is not a new body, they are robes of salvation, and they need a covering so they are not naked before God-like the unsaved will be.

We are body, soul, and spirit- although spirit and soul could be interchanged in a lot of verses, but we are body and soul at least. The body dies, the soul goes to either heaven or hell.

The contrast is seen of the souls of the martyrs resting for awhile longer in Rev 6, and coming to life in 20:4-although I believe this could be speaking of an action that took place in the past and John is just pointing out he sees those now resurrected and reigning with Christ. Coming to life, or being made alive is what happens at the resurrection, as both Scripture teach.

The key point is there is a difference, and some don't just say the body has to be raised, ALL true Christians believe this, it is in all the Creeds of the historical faith. The big deal is the body has to be raised or our faith is in vain, as Paul points out. If you don't believe in the bodily resurrection, you are a cult member, plain and simple, and you sound like a JW to me. The Gnostics are still around today.

What is Christian Gnosticism? | GotQuestions.org

We have to be raise just like Jesus, and this will be at the coming (parousia) of Jesus. Paul makes this clear in the order of the resurrection. This is when we get our new bodies and are complete.


12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.



The Order of Resurrection

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

souls
ψυχὰς (psychas)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 5590: From psucho; breath, i.e. spirit, abstractly or concretely.

 

[Running2win]

The Lord returns in the end to destroy the beast at the battle of God almighty. Rev 16:15
The bowl judgments are the last of Gods judgments and are the judgments that plunge the beasts kingdom into darkness. The angel of the abyss is released in the days of the sounding of the 5th trump. So the 5th to 7th trump are concurrent with the bowl judgments. The reign of the beast. And Rev 16:15 would be in the days of the 7th trump when the kingdoms of the whole world become the kingdom of God and of His Christ. The reign of the beast is the period of the great tribulation. He will cause and be the cause of astounding devastation on this earth. And again the beast and his armies are not destroyed/defeated by man but by the Lord Jesus and those that follow Him. The armies of heaven. Jesus will pronounce judgment in favor of the saints of the most high. The world that states, "who can make war with the beast", will be shocked and surprised by the sudden appearance of Jesus on that last day. And before all these things take place the 2 witnesses in Rev 11 will be a sign that can't be mistaken. After their testimony has been completed, 1260 days, it is the beast who is finally allowed by God to overpower them. Those that take joy in their deaths will fall to the lie of the beast.

So yes I agree with most, I'm just don't believe the trumpets and bowls are concurrent but everything follows in sequence: 7 sealed scroll 1-7, last seal allows the scroll to be opened and then the 7 trumpets in order, and finally the bowls. Judgments get worse and only the 5 &6 bowl is not world wide.

You post trib? Or is there ant pre-wrathers that post here? I know pre-wrath is a minority view. Use to be pre, when I was first save, then went post, and now pre-wrat.

1Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels who had seven plagues, which are the last, because in them the wrath of God is finished.

 

[Timtofly]

You don't make any sense.
The souls under the altar are just that, souls. The white robe is not a new body, they are robes of salvation, and they need a covering so they are not naked before God-like the unsaved will be.

We are body, soul, and spirit- although spirit and soul could be interchanged in a lot of verses, but we are body and soul at least. The body dies, the soul goes to either heaven or hell.

The contrast is seen of the souls of the martyrs resting for awhile longer in Rev 6, and coming to life in 20:4-although I believe this could be speaking of an action that took place in the past and John is just pointing out he sees those now resurrected and reigning with Christ. Coming to life, or being made alive is what happens at the resurrection, as both Scripture teach.

The key point is there is a difference, and some don't just say the body has to be raised, ALL true Christians believe this, it is in all the Creeds of the historical faith. The big deal is the body has to be raised or our faith is in vain, as Paul points out. If you don't believe in the bodily resurrection, you are a cult member, plain and simple, and you sound like a JW to me. The Gnostics are still around today.

What is Christian Gnosticism? | GotQuestions.org

We have to be raise just like Jesus, and this will be at the coming (parousia) of Jesus. Paul makes this clear in the order of the resurrection. This is when we get our new bodies and are complete.


12Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.



The Order of Resurrection

20But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be abolished is death.


Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

souls
ψυχὰς (psychas)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Plural
Strong's Greek 5590: From psucho; breath, i.e. spirit, abstractly or concretely.

Because the body is changed and resurrected at death. Souls were considered just in sleep in the OT. The point of the Cross changed that. Now souls were given an incorruptible body. That is what Paul taught about a seed being placed into the ground. A body does not need to be burried, but this flesh and blood has to die to be changed. After the Cross this change is immediate at death. In Christ we do not have to wait to be changed. That the church was told all had to wait, misses half of Paul's teachings. There is no waiting in death any more. And the body is already changed and with the Lord.

 

[Running2win]

Because the body is changed and resurrected at death. Souls were considered just in sleep in the OT. The point of the Cross changed that. Now souls were given an incorruptible body. That is what Paul taught about a seed being placed into the ground. A body does not need to be burried, but this flesh and blood has to die to be changed. After the Cross this change is immediate at death. In Christ we do not have to wait to be changed. That the church was told all had to wait, misses half of Paul's teachings. There is no waiting in death any more. And the body is already changed and with the Lord.

You don't know what you are talking about bud. Yeah, the whole church is wrong about a bodily resurrection and you are right. Soul sleep is a JW doctrine too, why don't you just come clean and quit hiding your identity?

 

[Timtofly]

You don't know what you are talking about bud. Yeah, the whole church is wrong about a bodily resurrection and you are right. Soul sleep is a JW doctrine too, why don't you just come clean and quit hiding your identity?

So Paul was the first JW? He claimed we will not all sleep, but all will be changed. I just told you no soul sleeps. Should you inform Paul he needs to get out of the JW cult? You are the one claiming a bodily resurrection after the body sleeps in the ground. I did not say the whole church was wrong. The church teaches the soul goes to heaven. No one teaches a rapture do they? There is no rapture for the amil. There is no rapture for the post mill. There is hardly a rapture for the pre-mill. This body returns to dust. It is gone. God does not need that body. God gives those in Christ new incorruptible bodies when they die. No SLEEP period!!! Read 2 Corinthians 5. There is a new body in Christ. The old one will be destroyed.

 

[Running2win]

So Paul was the first JW? He claimed we will not all sleep, but all will be changed. I just told you no soul sleeps. Should you inform Paul he needs to get out of the JW cult? You are the one claiming a bodily resurrection after the body sleeps in the ground. I did not say the whole church was wrong. The church teaches the soul goes to heaven. No one teaches a rapture do they? There is no rapture for the amil. There is no rapture for the post mill. There is hardly a rapture for the pre-mill. This body returns to dust. It is gone. God does not need that body. God gives those in Christ new incorruptible bodies when they die. No SLEEP period!!! Read 2 Corinthians 5. There is a new body in Christ. The old one will be destroyed.

I didn't say the body sleeps in the ground. Sleep is death because the body looks like it is asleep when it dies. Asleep just means a person is dead, and nobody has gotten a resurrection body yet except Jesus and probably the 24 Elders-which would be a wave grain offering for more to come. I'll try one more time, but I doubt it will help.

Ok, what about Jesus? His body died,He went to heaven before His body rose again, then that very same body was changed and passed through the burial clothes when He rose again. Another body did not come down from heaven. John believed when he saw the sunken in burial clothes (like a cocoon)that was flattened and empty. It wasn't a different body but a changed one. He ate food with the disciples, and they touched His feet, showing He had a real physical, material body. This is how the resurrection works:

Our old bodies get changed into new ones ready for both Heaven and earth that will never die again. Spiritual describes the new nature of the body, wanting things of the spirit, not that the new body is like a ghost or immaterial- although we will be able to operate in the spiritual realm, a realm we cannot see or venture into now. This is where Heaven is and one day it will be on the earth again. That is why Jesus made great pains to show He was in a material body and not just a spirit.

God don't need a body true, but He is keeping tabs on each body there ever was and will reconstruct them where ever that dust is and raise it up (resurrect) it one day. Rev 20:13 proves the bodies are put back together with the souls from Hades (Hell) of unbelievers at the second death, or resurrection.

The flip side is at the first resurrection, our souls and changed bodies will be put back together, so there is a continuity of the same body and same soul. We will be judged in accordance to the things we have done in this body, so body and soul must be ours.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

That's is what Paul is teaching in 1st Thes. 4. The dead in Christ are the reconstructed bodies that God raises from all over the earth, God brings back the souls with Jesus (those that sleep-like those resting under the altar) from Heaven and they are put together. A split second later, we who are alive and remain (after the great trib. is cut short) will be changed and caught up together with them in the clouds, then taken back to the Fathers House in Heaven while the trumpet and bowls are being poured out on the earth dwellers. Angels do the gathering.


13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18Therefore comfort one another with these words.


13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

36While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39“See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43and He took it and ate it before them.

This is what Paul teaches and the historical Christian faith is, the gospel. If you don't believe in a bodily resurrection you are probably not in the faith, your hope is in vain. Read below what Paul says the gospel is, this is an early creed. If you can't understand this, how can you claimed to be saved?


1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.


3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; 8and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. 9For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

Must One Believe in the Resurrection to be a Christian?

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/essay/resurrection-christ-salvation/