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Premillennialism safe house

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by mnorian, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. mnorian

    mnorian Oldbie--Eternal Optimist Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Supporter

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    Members who chose to participate in this safe house should believe in premillennialism (see definition below). This thread is for discussing end time events and prophecy (Biblical) from an premillennial point of view. Fellowship posts from all members are welcome.
    • This safe house thread is for those members who believe in premillennialism.

    • The safe house is for discussion and not for debate. Debate is defined as: "Engaging in argument by discussing opposing points."

    • Members who do not believe in premillennialism may post in fellowship only.

    • No posts from this safe house may be quoted in other threads or used to start discussion threads in the main Eschatology forum.

    • Premillennialism: is the belief that Jesus Christ will literally and physically be on the earth for his millennial reign at his second coming. The doctrine is called premillennialism because it holds that Jesus' physical return to earth will occur prior to the inauguration of the millennium.
     
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  2. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Here is proof that the thousand years takes place after the second coming:

    Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

    That is the second coming.

    Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations.

    Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.
     
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  3. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
    Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    Satan is bound by a chain which means to have it wrapped around him preventing arm and leg movement ie: incapable of moving. Whether the chain is spiritual or literal doesn't change what it's purpose and it's result. It's is irrelevant whether it's made of steel, gold, plasma or kryptonite.

    He is also cast into a bottomless pit which is where the Genesis fallen angels are also kept. Satan is "shut up" in this pit which is a prison for angelic beings. He is also "sealed". So there are three things that bind and imprison Satan both physically and spiritually. Satan cannot leave the pit or influence anything outside of the pit nor in the pit. He is completely and utterly incapacitated. Any doctrine that teaches anything otherwise is changing what the scriptures present. When this happens, the world will be without Satan's deceptions and lies for the first time in history. This is the perfect time for the gospel to finally reach those who normally would be deceived and incapable of hearing or accepting the gospel. In addition these same people will be under the shepherding rule of Jesus and his resurrected priests and kings who are Christian saints, many having been murdered in the great tribulation.

    Any doctrine that teaches Satan will have any amount of influence and mobility and power outside of the pit, and can deceive people during the thousand years is teaching things that scripture does not teach and in fact contradicts what scripture does teach about Satan and that time period.
     
  4. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Major holes found in the Amil theory:

    Time no longer theory

    Rev_10:6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

    The "time will stop existing" theory is based on misunderstanding the archaic KJV wording. Here "time no longer" simply means there will no longer be a delay before certain events begin to occur not that time somehow actually stops. Scripture never claims that time ends in fact the eternity is never ending time and there is a new fruit on the tree of life every month (30 days of time).

    Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

    World here is AION which is an age or period of time. Usually it speaks of an everlasting period of time. Here the verse not only uses AION but adds "without end" to make clear time never ends for overcomers.
     
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  5. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The first resurrection? Christ's resurrection?

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Here Amil changes the "first resurrection" from a reference to the first of two groups of the dead being raised back to life in Rev 20 to somehow being a reference to Christ's own resurrection found in the gospels. It is clearly not speaking of Christ's resurrection for many contextual reasons.
     
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  6. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Thousand year reign of the saints in Heaven or on the Earth?

    Amil claims the resurrected saints that reign for 1000 years are in heaven during that reign, yet Amil also says the 1000 years doesn't apply to those saints in heaven because "heaven is eternal" and there is no time there. According to Rev_5:10, the saints reign on the Earth not in heaven therefore the reign of the rod of iron for a thousand years in Rev 20 is upon the Earth.
     
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  7. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi ewq,

    Ok let`s discuss. The Greek word `epi` in Rev. 5: 10 actually means `over` and also can be `on.` Thus we need more scriptures to show which.

    Would you like to find other scriptures to support the `on` &/or look at `over` scriptures?

    I think this is a very important point to clarify.

    regards, Marilyn.
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I think this would be a matter for Greek scholars. But, "over" would not imply a higher distance above something but power "over" a place.

    Rev_18:24 AndG2532 inG1722 herG846 was foundG2147 the bloodG129 of prophets,G4396 andG2532 of saints,G40 andG2532 of allG3956 that were slainG4969 uponG1909 theG3588 earth.G1093

    Here is the same word and again, relating to the Earth it means on or upon the Earth.
     
  9. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi ewq,

    Thank you for that information. However we still need more scriptures to clarify where the Body of Christ will reign with the Lord.

    Marilyn.
     
  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    It says on the Earth...question? Who are the saints? Especially within the book of Rev?
     
  11. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Even if it means 'over' in that verse, one can still reign over the earth while actually on the earth. I don't see why not.
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Hey David.

    FYI for those who don't know, Marilyn believes Christ returns before the thousand years begins. She does believe he rules in heaven for the thousand years which is interesting for a Premil belief so that is what she and I were discussing.

    @Marilyn C did you see post 10 yet?
     
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  13. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I assumed that was where she was going with this. I have heard of other Premils concluding the same before. If they reign in heaven during the thousand years, this would seem to indicate Amil could be a possibilty as well. But if the martyrs have to reign a thousand years on the earth after having been martyred, that for sure can't work with Amil, but can only work with Premil.
     
  14. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi David,

    The reason we will not is because God`s word tell us that our inheritance is with the Lord on His throne.

    `To Him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me on my throne as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

    Marilyn.
     
  15. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi ewq,

    It says, `epi` the earth. And the Greek word `epi`can mean `over or on.` And thus we need to look at what inheritance the Body of Christ has been promised.

    `To Him who overcomes, I will grant to sit with me on my throne as I also overcame and sat down with my Father on His throne.` (Rev. 3: 21)

    And the `saints` in Revelation (after ch. 5) I believe are the trib. saints who are told of the coming reign of Israel`s Messiah.

    Marilyn.
     
  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    And where are the saints during the thousand years?
     
  17. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of Revelation 3:21, and that we were discussing this in another thread recently, did you ever get around to providing the answers to some of the questions you were asking some of us, where we had no answers for at the time? Mainly in regards to where Jesus' throne will actually be located? I see no reason to keep some of us in suspense forever, in the event you are yet to provide the answers to some of these questions you were asking of some of us.
     
  18. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi ewq,

    The `saints.` Well there are lots of saints.

    1. The saints in the Body of Christ will be in the third heaven ruling with the Lord.
    2. The saints who were martyred in the trib, will rule on earth with Israel.
    3. The saints in the nation of Israel, (who turned to the Lord) will be on earth ruling over the nations.
    4. The saints of the Old Testament will still be in the general assembly. (Heb. 12: 23 `just men`)
    5. The saints of the Great Multitude will also be in the general assembly awaiting their inheritance - the new earth. (see palm branches (Rev. 7: 9) as a symbol of the Feast of tabernacles in the new earth.)

    Lots of `saints` there. Marilyn.
     
  19. Marilyn C

    Marilyn C Newbie Supporter

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    Hi David,

    Oh I didn`t realise that you or others were interested in what I thought. That`s great, thank you.

    So.... the Lord`s own throne.

    Now we know that Jesus went to the Father on His throne, (meaning authority). This is the Godhead who are above the created order in the invisible realm, as God is Spirit.

    Then in the Father`s timing He will send Jesus, (Acts 3: 20 & 21) to connect with His Body and bring them to the third heaven where He will be inaugurated as the highest ruler in all of God`s great kingdom.

    Rev. 4 reveals this most important of all enthronements, when the Lord will be visibly acclaimed as worthy to rule over all. (Rev. 4: 11)

    The Father `sets` (Rev. 4: 2) up this throne/authority and gives His Son the authority to bring all rule and power and authority under His feet, (1 Cor. 15: 24 & 25) 7 then the Lord delivers it all to the Father. (1 Cor. 15: 28)

    Looking forward to the discussion and your comments on this. Marilyn.
     
  20. ewq1938

    ewq1938 It's easy to say anything but hard to say nothing. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The opening of the pit in Rev 9 is the same exact event and time when the pit is opened in Rev 20.

    The problem here is that in Rev 9 onward satan is powerful and successful against his enemies even to the point of overcoming and killing the saints. In Rev 20 satan fails completely with no success against the saints. The other issue is that Rev 9 is the 5th trump/1st woe but Rev 20 is decidedly after the 6th trump/2nd woe and even after the 7th trump/3rd woe so how can the two openings be parallel events according to chronology?
     
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