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Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by sovereigngrace, Nov 1, 2021.

  1. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    Ok I'm confused by your response. Either you think the resurrection happened during the Babylonian captivity or you think Daniel 12 isn't the time of Jacob's trouble. Could you clarify your position and then I'll respond.

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
    Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
     
  2. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Daniel 12 isn't the time of Jacob's trouble; it is the time before the end (the second coming).
     
  3. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Verse 1 refers to the nation of Daniel's people. Israel - Jacob. Of never a greater time of trouble.

    Daniel 12 takes place as the time of the end - verse 4. The time of the end is the narrow band of time at the end of the last days.

    The last days being the 2000 years from the cross and resurrection to Jesus's return.

    The parable of the fig tree generation is the time of the end generation. (the 1967 generation in which we are presently living)

    Jacob's troubles is the narrow amount of time in the 70th week of Daniel 9 forthcoming, when the daily sacrifice is stopped and the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation, revealing himself as the man of sin - and not the messiah after all that the Jews will in error initially think of him. Until Jesus returns in Zechariah 14 to rescue them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  4. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I've ever ran across that view. Take a look at both passages.

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it

    Both passages speak of a time of trouble for Israel.
    Both passages portray a time that is like no other for Israel.
    What makes you think they aren't the same?

    Take it a step further.

    Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
    Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

    When was the yoke of the wicked Jews broken off the neck of Israel?
    When was David their king raised up in Babylon?
    When did Israel begin to serve David their king?
    Hopefully it's crystal clear that David their king is Jesus Christ.
     
  5. Timtofly

    Timtofly Well-Known Member

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    This symbolism of fish is about living humans, not dead ones. This reward of life and death is not a resurrection of physically deceased people. If you are going to use this as an example, you are going to also point out that Jesus Christ and the angels are walking around on earth and literally being "fishers" of men's souls.

    I would point out that the angels and Christ are here because of the Second Coming. There is not some prior point where angels and Jesus are on earth prior to the Second Coming. The church is taken away at the Second Coming and no longer on earth. Calling these living humans rewarded with eternal life is not the definition of saved. They are blessed and live on earth during that forbidden 1000 years.

    If you can explain away:

    "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous."

    Are the angels literally coming? Because if not what is Jesus really saying? Jesus claims in the OD:

    "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

    John gives his version of the OD here:

    "And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

    Was not John's account the angels coming to earth symbolized by the stars coming to earth?

    Jesus and the angels are coming for the final harvest and they will be removing souls from the living, not taking souls out of "their graves". The other parable of this event is in Matthew 13.

    "As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

    This is not the here and now. This harvest is for the coming Millennium Kingdom. The church will be in Paradise shining as stars. Others will be on earth reigning as priest for 1000 years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2021
  6. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    In your view, when will God be done with Israel forever?

    Amo 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.
    Amo 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

    Keep in mind that Amos 8 happens at time when the earth casts forth MANY but not all dead bodies in every place in Israel and when the sun was darkened at the 6th hour over the entire world.

    Amo 8:3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
    Amo 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

    That event was recorded here:

    Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
    Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
    Mat 27:47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
    Mat 27:48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
    Mat 27:49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
    Mat 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
    Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
    Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
     
  7. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I disagree, but we can set that aside for now. What about the dead in Christ whose souls are in heaven right now. Does the second death have power over them right now?

    What do you believe is necessary in order for the second death to not have power over someone?
     
  8. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that the judgment will occur when Christ comes with His angels, not 1000 years later. Do you somehow think that the judgment of "them who have done good" and "them who have done evil" isn't portrayed here:

    Matthew 25:31When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world....41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels...46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

    The above passage is about the same time that Jesus said is coming when all of the dead will be resurrected and judged. And that time will occur when the Son of Man comes in His glory with His angels. The sheep represent the righteous/saved and the goats represents the wicked/unsaved. Notice what it says in verse 41 above and compare that to Revelation 20:15.

    Just like John 5:28-29 and passages like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 13:47-50, this portrays all people being judged at the same time. That fits with Acts 17:31 which says that God has set a day (not multiple days - one day) in the future when the world will be judged by His Son when that day comes. This passage says it will happen when Jesus comes with His angels.

    Other passages indicate it happens at the end of the age which fits with the fact that Jesus will return at the end of the age (Matthew 24:3). How do you reconcile all of this with your doctrine? Don't just ignore all these scriptures. Think about it and figure out if your doctrine can be reconciled with scriptures like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. I don't see any way that it can be.
     
  9. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    There are many dark days in Israel's history. These are not identically worded. You are totally ignoring the context of Jeremiah. The resurrection is not mentioned there by Jeremiah, and your location of Daniel 12 is wrong. It refers to the end.
     
  10. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    That is all your opinion. It does not say that. You have a habit of stating opinions as facts.
     
  11. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    We disagree, no problem. Could you give me some insight on when you think God raised up David their king in the passage from Jeremiah?
     
  12. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    Give me chapter and verse please.
     
  13. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    Jer 30:9 (KJV) But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
     
  14. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    No, it does not.
    To be saved by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.
     
  15. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would say some of the rewards are given when someone's soul goes to heaven and some rewards will be given at His future second coming. What is the reason for these questions?

    Amil does not say that believers come to life upon death. I've talked to you about this before and I see that you still don't get it. Our souls never die. Our bodies die. When our bodies die, our souls go to heaven to be with Christ. So, believers do not come to life upon death. They have already been brought to spiritual life from having previously been dead in sins (Eph 2:1-6) and because of that their souls go to heaven when they die.

    You seem to think that this passage is talking about people being up in heaven and just laying around waiting for the day for Christ to return. No. All it's saying is that they should be at peace and not worry about it for a little while longer at that point (when the 5th seal is opened) for the time when Christ will take vengeance on His enemies. It does not say they are not reigning with Christ. You are seeing things in the passage that aren't there.

    I disagree. I know we've talked about this before, but the context just does not support that idea. This thread is all about the tense in which these scriptures are written in and you're not taking that into account when reading Ephesians 2:6, which is written in the present tense, not in the future tense.

    Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressionsit is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

    The context of verse 6 can be seen in the 2 previous verses. Clearly, verses 4 and 5 are speaking of a current reality. God makes a person spiritually alive with Christ after previously being spiritually dead in transgressions when a person becomes saved by grace. Paul doesn't suddenly switch to a different subject and time in verse 6. In that verse he is describing the same thing that he was describing in verses 4 and 5 in a figurative way. Obviously, we're not literally raised up with Christ and seated in the heavenly realms, but we are in a figurative and spiritual sense.

    We can look at other scripture for help in seeing the context of Ephesians 2:6 as well.

    Colossians 2:11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    See, how this passage says "you WERE RAISED with Him through your faith"? That's clearly speaking of a current reality just like it's talking about being spiritually circumcised by Christ and buried with Him in baptism as a current reality. Like Ephesians 2:6, it's talking about being spiritually raised up with Christ. It's figurative language.

    Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God.

    Would you try to say that Colossians 3:1 is talking about a future event even though it says you HAVE BEEN RAISED with Christ? This is speaking figuratively in a spiritual sense. It's not talking about the future bodily resurrection of the dead there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  16. Spiritual Jew

    Spiritual Jew Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Since the second death currently does not have any power over the souls of the dead in Christ and the second death doesn't have power over those who have part in the first resurrection, then why would that not mean that the souls of the dead in Christ have already had part in the first resurrection?

    Clearly, their bodily resurrection isn't what makes it so that the second death doesn't have power over them, right? The second death already doesn't have power over them. So, they don't have to wait for their bodily resurrection in order for Revelation 20:6 to be true about them. They already spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection, which is the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18, Rev 1:5).

    You said yourself that the way for the second death to not have power over you is "To be saved by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.". So, to me, that means having part in the first resurrection involves being saved by believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, which was the first resurrection.
     
  17. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    The First Advent.
     
  18. Douggg

    Douggg anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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    "the first resurrection" of Revelation 20:4-6 has not happened yet.

    Them in Revelation 20:4-6 are not yet Christians. They turn to Christ after the resurrection/rapture event has taken place.

    The resurrection/rapture event is the escape from having to go through the great tribulation.

    Having missed the resurrection/rapture because they were not Christians at the time, in the shocking reality of what had happened, many will turn to Christ, but will have to go through the great tribulation, and many will be martyred for taking their stand for Jesus and not worshiping the beast, his image, or taking his mark.

    ____________________________________________________________

    To simplify it for you - in the Left Behind movie, them left behind turn to Jesus and many will be martyred for taking their stand for Jesus and not worshiping the beast, his image, or taking his mark.

    Those martyred Christians will be the ones who be brought back to life as what is called the first resurrection in Revelation 20:4-6.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
  19. Bob_1000

    Bob_1000 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly and the first advent was the time of Jacobs trouble.
     
  20. sovereigngrace

    sovereigngrace Well-Known Member

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    LOL. How? Just because you say?
     
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