Preferred marriage improvement programs or systems

tall73

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Since this has bled into a few topics lately, perhaps it needs its own thread. What counselor, system, program, etc. do you think is helpful in resolving issues within a marriage?

If you are an advocate of a particular school of thought please give a summary and what you perceive to be the pros and cons of that system, and what it is best able to address.
 

Paidiske

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My approach would be to look at things on a case-by-case basis, not think that any one system or programme is "the answer" for each person or couple and their unique issues.
 
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Tolworth John

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A thorough premarital preparation course that is mandatory before marriage at ones church.
Plus regular teaching in sermons on marriage and each partners responcibilities.

Otherwise for marrages in trouble go over the marriage preparation course so each person can learn about their roles etc.
If problem remain to tackle them one by one by how the bible deals with those issues.
 
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Paidiske

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I admit, I don't preach on marriage a lot because of the high number of singles (and especially those whose spouses have died) in the congregation. It doesn't seem right to focus on one group rather than bringing a message which has something for everybody.

Not that I think we shouldn't teach on marriage, I'm just not sold on sermons being the right place for that being a focus very often. (Obviously sermons at weddings are an exception!)
 
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mkgal1

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What counselor, system, program, etc. do you think is helpful in resolving issues within a marriage?
This isn't directly aimed at marriage....but I believe being an emotionally healthy person will naturally contribute to a healthier marriage.

The idea (in the Protestant world) that we recite a prayer and automatically (through the Holy Spirit) *become* a new creation--and thus don't need any self-introspection and effort--I think has done a LOT of damage to the church in general (and that's reflected in the high divorce rate/percentage of domestic abuse within the church).

....and from the perspective of his wife (Geri):

Quote from video: "She began to tell me--in a not-so-nice way--what it was like to be married to me the previous 8 or 9 years--the roller coaster ride she'd been on. It was an amazing moment, because it was the most *honest* moment up until that point in our marriage".
 
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mkgal1

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Another program (that's more relational encouragement and not one-size-fits-all list of "do's and don't's") is Retrouvaille:

Retrouvaille Page said:
Our primary goal is to provide help for couples who live in the disappointment and pain of marriage problems. The Retrouvaille weekend provides a safe setting encouraging couples to learn communication in marriage in a respectful manner. The post-weekend phase of the Retrouvaille program is as critical to a couple experiencing marital problems as the initial weekend experience. We know that the degree of disappointment, deterioration and despair in hurting marriages cannot be healed in one weekend. Restoration takes time. The post-weekend sessions provide support as couples discuss concepts of the importance of communication in marriage, intimacy, handling conflict, and many other topics.

The final phase of the program, CORE (Continuing Our Retrouvaille Experience) allows for casual supportive small group meetings each month to continue to reinforce the communication tools learned on the weekend as couples continue to heal their marriages.~About Retrouvaille Marriage Help

In the end we never found out what drove the other couples to sign up, which brings me to the number-one thing that we learned about Retrouvaille (and that everyone should know before they go): Whatever has happened between a couple stays between the couple. Unless you volunteer your issues, no one will ever know or ask what they are.

"But how can they help us if we don't talk about our problems" you might ask. Well, that's the thing-- Retrouvaille isn't therapy. It's more of a crowdsourced DIY affair. The sessions are led by other couples like you, who attended Retrouvaille in the past and used it to save their own marriages.

The entire focus of the weekend is on communication, particularly how to share your emotions with each other in a safe and productive way.~One couple's last-ditch attempt to save their marriage ends in renewal (Retrouvaille Marriage Help)

 
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ValleyGal

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As I stated in the other thread, I am a Gottman gal. His 7 principles for making marriage work are based on 40 years of scientific research and his research papers have been peer reviewed and published. Dr. Gottman has been recognized as one of the top ten most influential therapists and researchers in the last 25 years. His contributions to family therapy has won distinguished award after distinguished award.

On the plus side, he looks at some very practical things couples can do to make life together meaningful, such as knowing the minutia of each other's lives (love maps), rituals, making the most of conflict and how to navigate unresolvable conflict, etc. His workshops on the seven principles guide couples through conversations and conflict exercises that will strengthen any marriage where both spouses are equally committed to practicing the principles. Gottman's approach gets both spouses to focus on the marriage dynamic and set a friendship 'tone' to the relationship. He has other workshops as well, and has developed several different programs to meet various needs couples have.

It is difficult to find any critical review of his work, because his method works and he is so well respected among his peers. With the disclaimer that I have never taken his in-depth counsellor training, what I have seen is a simplistic approach and does not include deeper personality or character issues, or issues resulting from trauma, mental illness, or addictions. Additionally, part of what I think might be missing is also partner suitability. For example, in one of my social psychology courses, the textbook (I can't cite it because I have lost the usb drive with all my education on it) said that while opposites attract, they do not make for long-term partnerships, but when "birds of a feather flock together", the result is long-term relationship with greater levels of perceived marital satisfaction. Gottman's method does not address this issue, or the couple-specific ways that a couple is alike versus different. When you have two people who have a positive outlook on life and how to live it, they will likely live and let live in their marriage. When two people have a negative outlook, they can find mutual support in the things that drag them down. But when you have one of each, they are mostly not on the same page with how they live or how they think or how they process information. Honestly, I do not know how it would unfold to have a couple in a Gottman-trained therapists' office where one has a negativity bias and the other has a positivity bias. Or fundamental character flaws, or personality issues, or one has a history of trauma, mental illness, addictions, or any other huge issue that could plague a marriage.

I do not believe he totally dismisses those issues, though. I just think he deals with them in a simplistic way, such as including them in the four horsemen that lead to divorce - for example, the criticism horseman can also be seen as a negativity bias, but that would likely require more than marriage therapy to address at it's core.

Overall, I trust Gottman though, because his research is proven, is scientific, and because if he has earned the highest respect from his peers worldwide, then who am I to question all those who respect him so highly.
 
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Paidiske

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That's interesting, ValleyGal (about the likelihood that similar personalities will make more stable relationships over time). Do you have any idea about whether that would be true also for, say, similarity over Myers-Briggs type traits?

(One thing my husband and I learned, when we both did Myers-Briggs, is that on one measure we're extremes apart... and we realised that that difference fuels most of our disagreements and tension. Over time we've learned to navigate it better, but I can definitely see how it would be easier if we were more similar in that regard).
 
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ValleyGal

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That's interesting, ValleyGal (about the likelihood that similar personalities will make more stable relationships over time). Do you have any idea about whether that would be true also for, say, similarity over Myers-Briggs type traits?

(One thing my husband and I learned, when we both did Myers-Briggs, is that on one measure we're extremes apart... and we realised that that difference fuels most of our disagreements and tension. Over time we've learned to navigate it better, but I can definitely see how it would be easier if we were more similar in that regard).
I'm not so sure it's about similar personalities so much as it is about specific qualities such as work ethic, optimism/pessimism, upbringing, class (yes, this factors into marriage on a subconscious level), values, etc. With personalities, I would think it is more about the ability to accept, love, and cherish the differences and using them to enhance the marriage rather than criticize the person for being different - especially if the criticism is about character. Because my mobility is challenged, I think someone who values daily fitness would become bored with me because I walk so slowly, for example. However, my friend has a chronic illness, and her husband is a fitness fan. But he treasures her spiritual beauty so much that her physical challenges become meaningless.

As for Meyers-Briggs, I think how the traits can be useful in identifying areas that might need more attention - as you experienced. But it should not be done without discussion as to how important those traits play out in the day-to-day dynamic in the relationship. As you say, over time you learned to navigate them better, and Gottman teaches about this in his seven principles. He says that every single marriage will have about 5 - 7 core conflicts that are unresolvable. He says to solve the solvable ones, and for those that can't be resolved, they must be navigated each time - and those times of navigation can actually help the marriage deepen. He gives the example of one couple who will have an argument every few years. Once they realize it's the same old argument, he sits in his chair and reads a paper, and she goes out shopping. They don't talk about it anymore, and every time, it just works itself out. One or the other might not be happy about it, but they get over it, and it's not always the same spouse that ends up unhappy.

Back to Meyers-Briggs, if a couple can take the assessment, and talk honestly about how much they value certain traits that might become a problem, they can be proactive in laying out how they will handle the issue when it happens in the future. Or they can choose not to marry, if they haven't already. As a very serious person and one who is focused on career and professionalism, it's hard for me to let loose and be myself in a fun-loving way. I would welcome someone who could help me to do that. But I also know that someone who is similar to me in this area would make me wonder if our entire lives we would ever laugh again. Then again, I also know that having been a very positive person with an optimistic view all my life (except the last few years), that I need to be with other optimistic people and would choose that in a partner (not that I'm considering anything, as I am still legally married). Bottom line: Meyers-Briggs is a good conversation to have.

Myers-Briggs is also fairly comprehensive, though... I would be more inclined to go with one like Personality Plus by Florence Littauer. This method breaks down personalities into only four categories, making it a little easier to explore more fundamental differences. For example, one type is "choleric" which is the boss, manager, and can keep things running and can delegate, but who also might become a workaholic and become too bossy and demanding at home. How might that personality type play out with the more passive, peaceful "phlegmatic" who will do anything to avoid conflict (iow, do as the boss says) but then later harbor resentment because of it. Or how might the more depressed melancholic personality react to a choleric workaholic? Likely by emotionally withdrawing, reinforcing the workaholic's tendency to stay at work. Or take the fun-loving sanguine who nags the melancholic to go out and party, then still goes out anyway, leaving the melancholic at home to wonder about whether to trust the sanguine's faithfulness. That's a big conversation, and that's only touching the tip of the personality iceberg.

When I wrote my marriage preparation program, this was one of the sessions.
 
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Paidiske

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Yes, there's a lot to Myers-Briggs. We happened to do it for other reasons and then realised there was a lot there for us to explore.

Not sure I'd put much stock in choleric/phlegmatic/melancholic/sanguine characterisations, though. Didn't thinking of people's "humours" go out with the middle ages?
 
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ValleyGal

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Yes, there's a lot to Myers-Briggs. We happened to do it for other reasons and then realised there was a lot there for us to explore.

Not sure I'd put much stock in choleric/phlegmatic/melancholic/sanguine characterisations, though. Didn't thinking of people's "humours" go out with the middle ages?
lol. Yes, the titles are certainly outdated, but I like the simple format for some clients due to the complexity of Meyers-Briggs. It would be good if the four titles were changed. For couples who actually enjoy introspection and talking about how things play out in marriage, Meyers-Briggs is great, but there are a lot of couples out there who aren't that into it, or who are incapable of that kind of depth.
 
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Endeavourer

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How many of you who advise people based on your preferred marriage system have terrific marriages, where you are madly and romantically in love with each other, and are each other's closest friends and confidants?

How often do you have conflicts in your marriage that result in fights?
 
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mkgal1

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Basically us as well. We've had one main conflict in our marriage (that's--thankfully--behind us)....but with 30 years behind us, I wouldn't describe our love as "madly in love romantically". It's more of a stable and secure...."safe" kind of love that endures (as it's been tested and refined). "Madly in love" --to me, personally--describes infatuation....a fantasy of what we hope (full of expectations and idealizations).

But since you made it personal, Endeavourer, have you and your husband experienced anything like addiction, disconnect for years, or any long-term unresolved conflicts? Because unless you've actually seen/experienced how complex marital issues can be....it's difficult to understand how destructive it is to believe there's a formula to use in order to obtain a "great marriage" (and that sharing that formula is like handing out a cure to all marriages). I'm sure your intentions are out of a true heart...but it's typically just not that simple.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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"Madly in love" --to me, personally--describes infatuation....a fantasy of what we hope (full of expectations and idealizations).

I think definitions for these things are different for different couples, as is what defines a successful marriage. I’d say I’m madly in love with my husband... I get butterflies for date nights and miss him when he’s not around. When he calls, I get excited, and finding a surprise note or card makes my day. I have a lot, of even say most, of those “newly dating” emotions and reactions despite almost 10 years, 3 shared children, his more than full time job, my more than full time disability, and life in general. I know he feels the same because he acts the same.

But I don’t think it’s something that a relationship “needs” or something where, if you don’t have it you’re failing. And I also don’t think if you have it, it’s what you need all the time. For example, when I was admitted to the hospital last year, I didn’t need butterflies and romance and I didn’t want it. I needed nurturing, safety, security, tenderness, and an advocate. Somebody to help me in ways I couldn’t define because the situation was so foreign to me, to us. Somebody to walk me to a bathroom and stay with me, help me shower, willing to sleep in the chair next to my bed, tell a doctor that my modesty and privacy was not being attended to... Somebody who paid nurses to run and get him coffee on breaks because he didn’t want me to be alone.

I don’t think you can quantify a successful marriage using consistent watermarks or goals hit or even things like how often you fight. If you could, I certainly don’t think that you take the template of that successful marriage and stencil it on somebody else’s marriage then they will be successful. Some people want the butterflies. Some people don’t. Some people want the security and the nurturing. Some people want a partner who gets a need for alone time. We all want different things and the things we want will change as we age or our circumstances change.
 
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ValleyGal

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It takes two people who are 100% invested, to make marriage work. TW, what you describe as your husband doing all those things for you - the point is, he did them for you. Selflessly giving 100% for your best interest. And if the situation were reversed, I'm willing to bet that you would have done the same for him.

That is what I like so much about Gottman's principles. They apply whether the marriage is about those butterflies in the belly after 30 years of marriage, or whether it's based on the pragmatic tending to one's spouse when it's needed the most, or anything in between. It's not a formula; it is a set of principles that allows a couple to make the most of the good times and bear with each other on the same team through the times of conflict. It's about being each other's best friend - however that looks in the context of each couple.

I've never said the Gottman method is perfect, and I'm sure he has a handful of critics, but to have gained the prestige he has among his peers worldwide, that says a lot to me about his contributions to making marriages work. This is why he is my go-to. However, if I have clients who are having issues unrelated to "normal" marriage issues, I will refer them for more specific counselling, for example, exploring how their early attachment styles factor into current marriage attachments and how that looks in the overall family functioning.

I am also careful to also examine Lewis Smedes' contribution to marital functioning - the theory that commitment is the sum of caring and consistency. You can have one or the other, but both are required for commitment. And without commitment, there isn't much of a marriage left. So... it's all about what the individual couple needs - but more often than not, the Gottman method is very successful, as it can be applied in every marriage, as long as both spouses are equally committed to making it work.
 
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