predestination

[Urban_Legend]

I know this question was posted online numerous of times and being argued in forums and debates over and over again but I'm new and would like to hear the opinions from Christians who come here and share their views

This is my thinking with a bit of influence from previous points of view on this matter. So in (Romans 9 verse 10-21) states " Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?..."

I understand the reasoning and the way of thinking the author has used and I know that God's way is superior and eternal but I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful". Can someone please give me your view and understanding of this theory in the bible.

 

[Devin P]

I know this question was posted online numerous of times and being argued in forums and debates over and over again but I'm new and would like to hear the opinions from Christians who come here and share their views

This is my thinking with a bit of influence from previous points of view on this matter. So in (Romans 9 verse 10-21) states " Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?..."

I understand the reasoning and the way of thinking the author has used and I know that God's way is superior and eternal but I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful". Can someone please give me your view and understanding of this theory in the bible.

I think, it's mainly to increase your faith, saying that, all you need to do, is trust Him. Which is absolutely right, pray for guidance and that He makes your path straight, and that He gives you the wisdom, the strength and the desire to Love Him enough to drop anything and everything that doesn't serve Him the way He desires to be saved.

The fact that you're on here, desiring harmony in your spirit is telling. He's called you, that is where your predestination lies. Now, take that calling, and run it out, as it is written, work out your faith with fear and trembling. You can lose your salvation, but so long as you desire Him, and keep seeking Him, you will be fine.

I suggest you pray about Torah. I know seminary, and a lot of churches teach against obeying the Torah, but I can point out countless times in the new testament where the apostles kept the biblical feasts, the biblical sabbath, and kept Torah, and historically the followers of Jesus kept Torah until rome banned it's observance, and excommunicated those that kept it, and eventually ended up killing those that kept it. Look into the pagan origins of christmas and what not. Since you're new, I just suggest reading the bible from genesis to revelation, cover to cover. Good luck brother!

 

[SkyWriting]

I know this question was posted online numerous of times and being argued in forums and debates over and over again but I'm new and would like to hear the opinions from Christians who come here and share their views

This is my thinking with a bit of influence from previous points of view on this matter. So in (Romans 9 verse 10-21) states " Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?..."

I understand the reasoning and the way of thinking the author has used and I know that God's way is superior and eternal but I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful". Can someone please give me your view and understanding of this theory in the bible.

You are aware of the discussions on this.
So you are "New" in what way, exactly?

 

[jax5434]

Romans 9,10&11 are single literary unit wherein the Apostle Paul discusses the role of the people and nation of Israel under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ. At no point is he discussing individual salvation. Note how he sets the context at the beginning of each chapter and resets it at the conclusion of each chapter.

Romans 9:1-5

9 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could [a]wish that I myself were anathema from Christ for my brethren’s sake, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed [c]for ever. Amen.

Romans 9:30-33

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: 31 but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Wherefore? [p]Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; 33 even as it is written,

[q]Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:

And he that believeth on [r]him shall not be put to shame.

Again in the 10th chapter

Romans 10:1

10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my supplication to God is for them, that they may be saved.

Romans 10:21

21 But as to Israel he saith, [q]All the day long did I spread out my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Finally chapter 11

Romans 11:1-2

11 I say then, Did God cast off his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not cast off his people which he foreknew. Or know ye not what the scripture [a]saith of Elijah? how he pleadeth with God against Israel:

Romans 11:25-26

25 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in; 26 and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written,

These 3 chapters are all about the destiny if Israel: Not the pre-destination of individual believers.

Hows that for controversial?

 

[bling]

Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

 

[paul1149]

" Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Two passages are cited here. Let's take a look at “The older will serve the younger."

23 And the Lord said to her,
“Two nations are in your womb,
and two peoples from within you shall be divided;
the one shall be stronger than the other,
the older shall serve the younger.”​

It is crystal clear that nations, not individuals, are referred to here. And there is nothing in the lives of Jacob and Esau that would suggest Esau served Jacob in any way. Indeed, when Jacob returned to the family, it was he who prostrated himself completely before Esau. After that they wept together and continued as brothers. No one was serving the other.

Now let's look at “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

“I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob
but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’”
Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!” -Mal 1:2-5​

Edom here is consistently referred to in the plural. Clearly this is a reference to the nation of Edom. Malachi is writing many hundreds of years after the birth of Esau, and his nation had gone badly astray since then. There is no record of God dealing this way with the man Esau, or of God hating him. Indeed, Esau by all accounting was blessed during his time on earth, as he had great wealth, even before Jacob's submission to him.

Romans 9-11 is a discussion of corporate service election. In much of the OT God dealt with man at the national level. Because Abraham was God's friend, the nation that came from him was given the honor of bringing Messiah into the world. God in His wisdom went ahead with that plan despite Israel's disobedience, because the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. But He used the disobedience of the Israelites to bring the blessing of salvation to the Gentiles, through their rejection of Jesus. But Paul concludes by revealing that by God's compassion Israel too will in the end believe in Jesus, and will also be saved. So salvation is the end goal, but the means to get to it is the service election of Israel, the nation, to bring forth Messiah. But all of it, every bit, is at the corporate level. There is nothing about individual deterministic predestination.

 

[sparow]

I know this question was posted online numerous of times and being argued in forums and debates over and over again but I'm new and would like to hear the opinions from Christians who come here and share their views

This is my thinking with a bit of influence from previous points of view on this matter. So in (Romans 9 verse 10-21) states " Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?..."

I understand the reasoning and the way of thinking the author has used and I know that God's way is superior and eternal but I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful". Can someone please give me your view and understanding of this theory in the bible.

There is predestination as a word and concept in the English language and the there is the Doctrine of Predestination.

God's system of prophesy and His plan is predestined; that Esau would precede Jacob from the womb may not have been God's plan, it may have been Satan's plan. Where is it written that God hated Esau before he was born.

The doctrine of Predestination is to do with an individuals salvation I believe. As I read what is written mankind is predestined to the second death unless he overcomes, finds the narrow path that leads to life which few find; many are called but few are chosen; once Christ's Christ does not let go easily.

God does not blame us except for being lazy and not seeking Him with all our might and for being lawless like Esau. "brutal" and "unmerciful", is subject to relativity; mercy and grace expires.

 

[Gottservant]

Jim Brown of Grace and Truth Ministries, has extensive views on predestination.

It is in his opinion, a failing of the Later Baptist Church that predestination was not upheld more vigorously from then to now.

 

[Radagast]

I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful".

To paraphrase the passage from the apostle Paul which you quoted, who made you the boss of God?

 

[Radagast]

God's system of prophesy and His plan is predestined; that Esau would precede Jacob from the womb may not have been God's plan, it may have been Satan's plan. Where is it written that God hated Esau before he was born.

It was God's plan.

See Romans 9:10-12: And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

 

[1213]

...and he hardens whom he wants to harden. ..

I just want to say one thing about that. The way that is said makes it look like God forces somebody to be evil. And I don’t think that is the case. For example, in the case of pharaoh, it is said God hardened his heart. I think it is really important to look, how it happened. The story tells, every time the plague ended, pharaohs heart was hardened. So, God hardened pharaohs heart by letting him have easier times. That shows, pharaohs heart was evil and unrighteous, but only when things went really badly for him, his heart was softened and he acted more like he should have acted. So, pharaohs mind was not altered, the situations were and it made different things happen. But to have pharaoh with soft heart it would have meant God should have let the plagues continue without end.

I believe same is with us. Our innermost determines how we will act, but changing the situation, it is possible to also change how we act. God knows our heart well and that is why he knows what we would choose in different situations. And that way it is possible to also have influence in matters on earth.

 

[Urban_Legend]

To paraphrase the passage from the apostle Paul which you quoted, who made you the boss of God?

It was God's plan.

See Romans 9:10-12: And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

To paraphrase the passage from the apostle Paul which you quoted, who made you the boss of God?

No one made me the boss of God...but God did create us in his image, us humans are the most intelligent and advanced form of God's creation. God created us with a sense of "free will" to choose to have relationship with him or not, to choose to love him or not. God could've created us as robots, to obey him and worship him but that's not what he wants.

 

[sparow]

It was God's plan.

See Romans 9:10-12: And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”

This comes from Gen 25:21 and Duet 21:15. except "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls", which Paul contributes or maybe it is a teaching of the Pharisees; I don't agree with Paul; the story reveals both Jacob and Esau bucked the system and in part each determined the course.

It is claimed by some that the prophesy: the greater will serve the lesser, has not been fulfilled; but this prophesy or concept is found more than once in scripture and such is said of Ephraim and Manasseh and the prophesy could be being fulfilled in them as we write.

 

[Radagast]

I don't agree with Paul

You are wrong, but I won't debate this further. It is actually against the CF rules to disagree with Paul being an inspired author of Scripture (even here in Controversial Christian Theology).

 

[SBC]

I know this question was posted online numerous of times and being argued in forums and debates over and over again but I'm new and would like to hear the opinions from Christians who come here and share their views

This is my thinking with a bit of influence from previous points of view on this matter. So in (Romans 9 verse 10-21) states " Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?..."

I understand the reasoning and the way of thinking the author has used and I know that God's way is superior and eternal but I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful". Can someone please give me your view and understanding of this theory in the bible.

First, I do not view or call Scripture "theory".
Scripture is commonly viewed as the Word of God, either directly spoken by God, or blessed by God in His approval.

Predestination is the OP -

Use of that particular word is revealed in Scripture -

Rom.8

1. [29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
2. [30] Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Eph.1

1. [5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
2. [11] In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

God is ALL knowing.
...Men are not.

God knows us before we are born. (Jer 1:5)
...Men know not what they know in the womb.

There is nothing new under the sun. (Ecc 1:9)
...A man in the womb has no new thought, because he exits the womb.

What was before, shall be again. (Ecc 1:9)
...What was a mans thought in the womb, shall be his thought outside of the womb.

Men are naturally born, standing AGAINST God, in disbelief of God.
Some men WILL, choose to hear, choose to believe;
Some men WILL NOT.

Men do not KNOW, what they WILL choose.
God does KNOW.

Pre-knowledge is what God has, and man doesn't. (Rom 8:29)

Because of Gods ALL Knowing and particular to individual men His Pre-knowledge of what every man WILL choose; (Eph 1:5)

God has PRE-prepared for all who do choose Him, and for all who do not choose Him.

The "destiny" of who, what, when, why, where - is PRE-known of/by God.
Each man (ie the who), figures out through knowledge they gain;
of what, when, why, where.
IOW - a man's destiny (pre-known, by God), becomes known to the man - when he hears and chooses to believe -
or not.

God Bless,
SBC

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I know this question was posted online numerous of times and being argued in forums and debates over and over again but I'm new and would like to hear the opinions from Christians who come here and share their views

This is my thinking with a bit of influence from previous points of view on this matter. So in (Romans 9 verse 10-21) states " Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?..."

I understand the reasoning and the way of thinking the author has used and I know that God's way is superior and eternal but I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful". Can someone please give me your view and understanding of this theory in the bible.

The real end game is to save everyone.

So, I know that is impossible for most Christians to believe, because there *appears* to be so much being said against that.

For instance, "many are called but few are chosen", and so on.

However, there are many stopgaps on that, and caveats. For instance, okay, so say only a few are saved literally. Of those, some will lose "everything", ie, they will not have their deeds remembered. Whereas the few, have their deeds follow them, or, ie, though they died, they are resurrected (as all are or will be). And they will have their good deeds they did in their life follow them.

Others will have nothing, so what does that mean? We can suggest, for one, they might have their spirits given into the spirits of those who are chosen.

They live, but live only in others.

Major figures, however, like Esau, probably will live, and probably are chosen. Like Ishmael. They both had many children. And Esau found himself ripped off by Jacob.

So, we can consider, "how do we ourselves speak". And surely I might, for instance, say I hate, say, chicken. But, there are times when I actually do like chicken.

I certainly have folks I might say I hate. For instance, I hate Nazis. But, strip from them their lives of hate, leaving only their soul... then what? They have no identity, and their soul might be added to someone else.

There are various angles to this.

For instance, Jesus, it is said in II Peter, went down to preach to the angels who were incarnated before the flood and killed.

For the sin of leaving their position, they received several millenia of living in a gloomy world. Why should they forever be this way, however? Jesus says they will not.

Finally, how often have Christians yet really needed the parables of the prodigal son, or of the workers in the field who earned one talent despite some working longer then others?

We who are chosen are ahead of the rest, but we, like the angels, and with the angels, seek to return that which was lost.

Note and recall in Jeremiah, God revealed that for whomever He plans disaster, if they repent, He will not bring upon the disaster He had planned for them.

In Jonah, it goes much further. Jonah went with the message God gave him. What did Jonah preach? What was the message God had given him? "In forty days this city will be destroyed". All of Nineveh repented, and the city was saved. Despite never even being told they had any hope of being saved whatsoever.

 

[Radagast]

nm

 

[Ron Gurley]

SEE:

What is predestination and is it Biblical?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...the-all-everything-attributes-of-god.8011130/

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

Gods Grace vs Free Will

 

[roman2819]

I know this question was posted online numerous of times and being argued in forums and debates over and over again but I'm new and would like to hear the opinions from Christians who come here and share their views

This is my thinking with a bit of influence from previous points of view on this matter. So in (Romans 9 verse 10-21) states " Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger." Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?..."

I understand the reasoning and the way of thinking the author has used and I know that God's way is superior and eternal but I'm struggling to find harmony in my spirit with this particular passage, either I'm not understanding it fully or this seems very "brutal" and "unmerciful". Can someone please give me your view and understanding of this theory in the bible.

Many Christians have been so awed by the word Predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned or chosen or destined (different translations use different words). In context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles thought that redemption was only for Jews only. Then Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized God wanted them to preach the gospel to the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in their God. When Gentiles started to believe, the Jews were displeased and demand that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practising circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed Peter for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously excluded from Christ, are now included. Notice how Paul used different pronouns "we" [v 12] and "you" [v 13] as he refer to the Jews and Gentiles respectively.

When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. As such, we need not be thrown off track when we see words such as chosen, destined or predestined. When Paul or Peter said Gentiles are a chosen people, it means that God had chosen to offer them eternal life too; the apostles were not saying that each believer was/is chosen. Trying to interpret words divorced from context is baffling indeed, which explains why many Christians are puzzled over such words. But when we interpret in context, it is clear.

 

[roman2819]

Many Christians have been so awed by the word Predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned or chosen or destined (different translations use different words). In context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles thought that redemption was only for Jews only. Then Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized God wanted them to preach the gospel to the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in their God. When Gentiles started to believe, the Jews were displeased and demand that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practising circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed Peter for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously excluded from Christ, are now included. Notice how Paul used different pronouns "we" [v 12] and "you" [v 13] as he refer to the Jews and Gentiles respectively.

When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. As such, we need not be thrown off track when we see words such as chosen, destined or predestined. When Paul or Peter said Gentiles are a chosen people, it means that God had chosen to offer them eternal life too; the apostles were not saying that each believer was/is chosen. Trying to interpret words divorced from context is baffling indeed, which explains why many Christians are puzzled over such words. But when we interpret in context, it is clear.

SEE:

What is predestination and is it Biblical?

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...the-all-everything-attributes-of-god.8011130/

The true doctrine of "FREE WILL"??: Biblical examples??

Gods Grace vs Free Will