Predestination
- Thread starter JacobHall86
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squint
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You gonna try to make a squabble over given or placed? lol
Romans 11:
8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
2 Corinthians 12:7
To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.
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- May 24, 2008
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'Placed' and 'intended' are different concepts and different words from 'gave.' Aside from that, to understand the passage go back to where Paul was quoting from. It is in the book of Isaiah.
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squint
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God gave them a spirit of stupor. That much is plain. They did not give it to themselves. God also gave Paul a DEVIL. So what's yer point? That you are only led to blame and accuse the wills of mankind for what God does and allows?
God ALLOWS the 'god of this world' to BLIND people. What are YOU gonna do about it? It is not their 'freewill' that is going to cure them of that blindness.
The cure can only come from God, even for YOU.
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Go back and read the passage in Isaiah. It explains it pretty well.
Incorrect.
Assumptions on your part.
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AMEN BROTHA!
I'm glad you said what you said because its the absolute truth and they need to hear it though I fear their ears have been closed
I'm glad I'm not the only one who realizes how serious an error this actually is
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Perhaps. But for the sake of others who may have questions, seemed important to get it all out in the open. And now, although some may have turned tail and left the scene, there are a number of unanswered questions still on the thread. This student intends to complete the project and find answers. Mopping up operation in progress.
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squint
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Yeah. Same thing. God gave them a spirit. It was PUT upon them by God. What's yer point.
Funny how we can both read a scripture and come to entirely different conclusions. You say it's incorrect that God put a messenger of Satan upon Paul?
You say God was not involved with this?
2 Cor. 12
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.
go figure
Spin it however you are led. There are other entities involved that are not the same as the people and God was definitely involved in an active way in those events.
Just writing incorrect and assumption means zero input to the contrary on your part.
enjoy!
squint
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Doveaman
Re-Created, Not Evolved.
Rom.1:18-28, 2:6-9:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done God "will give to each person according to what he has done." To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil
Is it not man who chooses to suppress the truth by his own wickedness?
Is it not man who chooses not to glorify God?
Man who chooses not to give thanks to God?
Man who chooses to exchange the glory of the immortal God?
Man who chooses to exchange the truth of God for a lie?
Man who chooses to worship and serve created things?
Man who chooses not to retain the knowledge of God?
Man who chooses to be self-seeking?
Man who chooses to reject the truth?
Man who chooses to follow evil?
Man who chooses to do evil?
Is it not man who chooses?
Then who?
Is it not man whose thinking became futile?
Is it not man whose foolish heart was darkened?
Is it not man who became a fool?
Is it not man whose mind became depraved?
Is it not God who brings the wrath?
Is it not God who brings the anger?
Is it not God who brings the trouble?
Is it not God who brings the distress?
Is it not the whole human being on whom He brings it?
Does anyone else see mans choices at work here?
Does anyone else see man suppressing Gods truth by his own wickedness?
Does anyone else see mental depravity and unbelief resulting from those poor choices?
Does anyone else see God bringing wrath, anger, trouble, and distress on the whole human being and not just part of that human being who make those poor choices?
Am I the only one who sees this?
Does no one else see this?
Am I seeing things that are not there?
Then will someone pray for me that I may see what is?
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Please do. You'd be on the side with Calvinists making the exact same point.
Those who do not yet actively experience within themselves a living faith in Christ or an assured confidence of heart, peace of conscience, a zeal for childlike obedience, and a glorying in God through Christ, but who nevertheless use the means by which God has promised to work these things in us--such people ought not to be alarmed at the mention of reprobation, nor to count themselves among the reprobate; rather they ought to continue diligently in the use of the means, to desire fervently a time of more abundant grace, and to wait for it in reverence and humility. On the other hand, those who seriously desire to turn to God, to be pleasing to him alone, and to be delivered from the body of death, but are not yet able to make such progress along the way of godliness and faith as they would like--such people ought much less to stand in fear of the teaching concerning reprobation, since our merciful God has promised that he will not snuff out a smoldering wick and that he will not break a bruised reed. However, those who have forgotten God and their Savior Jesus Christ and have abandoned themselves wholly to the cares of the world and the pleasures of the flesh--such people have every reason to stand in fear of this teaching, as long as they do not seriously turn to God. Canons of Dordt
There's not a secret knowledge teaching in predestination or election.
You're not talking about Scripture's point that spiritual men comprehend things which natural men think are ridiculous, right?
Good, I certainly agree. But I must point out the prior verse as well. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." We continue to operate as people with sin, even as we confess sins.
We're looking to Jesus Christ for cleansing from unrighteousness in a process, one that is incomplete as long as we're here. Confession doesn't remove sin.
Good, but what would bother me is those sins I'm unaware of, along with the inclination to think just telling God about a sin removes it.
Great!
It's not a tally of each sin, right? John doesn't seem to be saying that -- each item is fairly general, that if we're about confession, then God's faithful to that.
Agreeing with God over His view of a sin -- that's what that word "confess" really means -- is not an easy task, when your mind is trying to rationalize it and your will is still adamant that such a sin will get what you wish for. I would have to say we barely scratch the surface understanding what God comprehends about our sins, so I'm not really sure John means we just "say it" and we're done with it. It seems much more likely to me that 1 John 1:9 is in continuing tense.
So there I agree, it's highly important that you be about the process of agreeing with God over His view of your sin. That's what produces repentance, and grows reliance on Him. It's not just saying it to God, though. It's not just changing it as far as you think it should go right now. It's struggling to recognize the depth of a sin, to call it out, and to live it out.
In Calvinism they're inseparable from one another. Even though one's a sole cause, the results inevitably follow.
... sanctification be inseparably joined with justification... LC 77
... qualifying here the use of "sanctification" is essentially the scholastic term, not the Biblical one. It might be summarized as "Christian life" today.
I certainly appreciate where you're coming from there. And only faith justifies; but faith causes and associates with many other results.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Just trying to read through some of this thread for some broad points that seem to be nested into other posts.
when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Heb 10:12-14
This doesn't mean someone is "made into something that doesn't sin" by the sacrifice, once the sacrifice was performed. As this is sacrificial meaning, the assumption is that those are being sanctified by the sacrifice are considered perfect on the basis of the sacrifice ("by one offering"). So those sanctified are not themselves considered perfect apart from the sacrifice.
But it does point to something significant: no further need for sacrifice, due to the accomplishment of that one sacrifice.
when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. Heb 10:12-14
This doesn't mean someone is "made into something that doesn't sin" by the sacrifice, once the sacrifice was performed. As this is sacrificial meaning, the assumption is that those are being sanctified by the sacrifice are considered perfect on the basis of the sacrifice ("by one offering"). So those sanctified are not themselves considered perfect apart from the sacrifice.
But it does point to something significant: no further need for sacrifice, due to the accomplishment of that one sacrifice.
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squint
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How many ideas do you think it will take for this fact to go away?
2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
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Interesting. Some of your professedly Calvinist colleagues have indicated otherwise. But I certainly would agree with what you have cited.
Perhaps then the notion was presented originally as a tactic of desperation. A couple of zealous Calvinists on this thread suggested something sounding like secret knowledge.
No, I wasn't. And I like your rendering of that 1 Cor. verse. I would also point out that the Greek for 'natural man' is the 'world-minded man.' Louw-Nida is helpful on that point.
Agreed. Confession is a step, but Christ cleanses from unrighteousness, and that sanctification process is lifelong.
Interesting discussion point.
Agreed.
Interesting. Your points are very credible. Perhaps some of the Calvinists I engaged with on this thread are 'Neo-Calvinist'? I saw some extraordinary, jaw-dropping ideas presented, and did my best to remain level-headed. Truly amazing.
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Better choice of words than you used before, but still gives an implication which is unscriptural.
On, shield and buckler!
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Tzaousios
Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
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Wow, alright, I see how it is now. If you will remove the blinders for a moment, you will notice that I never made any statements to the effect that I am a Calvinist.
Also, I never said that I thought Augustine or Luther were proto-Calvinists. All I asked was that you examine Luther and Augustine's interpretation of Paul's thoughts on the relationship between the human will and grace.
In your zeal to deal the death blow to the Calvinist shibboleth you ignored a perfect opportunity to defend your position with the views of one of the greatest Roman Catholic theologians of all time, Augustine. If you can in fact defend your position using Augustine's views.
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