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Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Points To Ponder, May 4, 2021.

  1. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    Predestination need not undo free will. All of the arguments in favor of predestination can be explained with in a free will frame work.

    I am a computer programmer by trade, and have studied Artificial Intelligence, there is one branch of knowledge that can predict all possible outcomes in a simulation, or game, the computer can essentially know with in a system of free choices, all possible outcomes. God is a lot faster, and smarter than a simple computer. The only way however that the computer can “know” the end from the beginning, is to set constraints on choices, making stories, or outcomes that are restricted, simplifies computation. For God to know every person, every event that could potentially happen He would need to put constraints on man’s stories. And we see this is what God has done:

    Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

    Judas was indeed chosen because he "was a devil", he had a wrathful purpose determined for him. But when we look at Romans we see:

    What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    Paul says inspired of the Holy Spirit, God “endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath”, what does he mean by that? Well,

    2 Peter 3:9 says: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    God is long-suffering, not willing that any perish, but that all, and I stress all, should come to repentance. If we flow this thought through the passage in Romans. It could be stated this way: “what if God wanting to show His wrath against the vessels of dishonor, had previously endured their behavior, i.e. attempted to bring them to salvation, but they had resisted it, so God gave them over to a plan that displayed His wrath”
     
  2. com7fy8

    com7fy8 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    First > I do not associate Biblical predestination with John Calvin, but with God's word which came long before John. Even so - - if ones claim that John's version of predestination means you do not need to answer the door, possibly they have misunderstood what John means. But I did not know John personally so I could get what he really meant by things he said. His life and how he became as a person is what was the meaning of what he said, I would say.

    So, I do not get much into how ones argue back and forth about this. A number of arguers can be just playing what I call "word chess". In chess, each player has the same pieces; yet, each player has very different meanings and intention for one's own pieces. And each player might not realize what the other player is doing with his or her pieces. Likewise, in arguing about Biblical issues, ones can use the same words, but with very different meanings and intentions behind what they say.

    Please consider Romans 8:29 with Colossians 1:27-29 > to me, these scriptures mean Predestination is primarily about how God decided to have many children who have been conformed to the image of Jesus.

    So, this needs to be what first gets the attention of predestination, I would say. But many are arguing only or mainly about who is in control. Control can be an idol, along with how free will is an idol for some number of people. And if someone is a control worshiper, he or she can feel very threatened about the possibility of God being all-controlling and not only all-knowing.

    But I consider this > how can you know what will happen tomorrow . . . unless you are in control of it?

    If God is all-controlling, then why does His word say to knock and to seek?

    Because His word accomplishes what He says > Isaiah 55:11. What He speaks, He brings to pass . . . according to how He means His word . . . better than how we humans are able to think He means.

    So . . . welcome to Christian Forums :)
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Surely you can reword it in modern terminology in your own words here for us instead of having me to go fish about what other men say you believe. I am honestly not interested in looking at Reformed writings of any kind. So either you provide a brief explanation on Unconditoinal Election in your own words in how I got it wrong, or we can simply move on, my friend.

    I have talked with plenty of Calvinists over the past 10 years, and I have read many Calvinist claims and I know about the five points of Calvinism. Yes, there are other flavors of Calvinism out there. There are 4 point Calvinists, etc. But I am not interested in debating the other myriad of differences of Calvinism out there.
     
  4. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    I enjoy rich fellowship now with many who "Know the Lord".

    This passage in Jeremiah 32 is speaking of the New Covenant which was born when Jesus breathed upon them and they received the Holy Spirit within as promised.
     
  5. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Judas was once a sheep (saved), and he lost his salvation.

    These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying (Matthew 10:5) .... go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. ...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves...” (Matthew 10:16).
     
  6. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    I see no reference in this verse to Judas being saved.
     
  7. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The context is Israel (as a nation), and not the Gentiles at the end of Jeremiah 32.
    Yes, we are under a New Covenant, but we are not Israel the nation. This promise is to the nation Israel and not people in general. Context matters.
     
  8. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Bible refers to sheep as genuine followers or true saints of the Lord.

    It is written:

    Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life;” (John 10:27-28).​

    In other words, in John 10:27-28: Jesus refers to His sheep, and He says He gives them eternal life.

    It is also written:

    “And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.” (Matthew 25:32-36).​

    In other words, in Matthew 25: Jesus says He divides the sheep from the goats and His sheep on His right hand are told to inherit the Kingdom (i.e. they are saved). Those on the right hand are sheep and they are saved (i.e. they have eternal life).

    Judas is called a sheep when you piece together Matthew 10:5, and Matthew 10:16. This means at this point in time in Matthew 10: Judas was saved (even though He was spoken in hindsight by the writer of the gospel that he would betray Jesus later on).
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Jeremiah 31:34 is basically saying that EVERYONE already knows the Lord and so nobody will say to others, “Know the Lord.” Why? Because it must be during the time of the Millennium where Christ is living and reigning physically upon the Earth. Everyone will be a believer at that point in time.
     
  10. FutureAndAHope

    FutureAndAHope Just me Supporter

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    The bible is all about choices leading to outcomes. I have recently come to believe that God has ordained certain threads through our lives, certain fixed events. But these events are determined by what we choose. An example of this is David, he said:

    Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.

    But we see that the direction of David's life changed when he sinned.

    2Sa 12:8 and I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would have added unto thee such and such things.

    Go would have done more for David but David's sin changed God's direction for him.

    2Sa 12:9-10 Wherefore hast thou despised the word of Jehovah, to do that which is evil in his sight? thou hast smitten Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon. Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thy house, because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

    This is a thread in all scripture.

    Job 36:10-12
    He openeth also their ear to instruction, And commandeth that they return from iniquity. If they hearken and serve him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they hearken not, they shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.


    1 Ch 28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind; for Jehovah searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: If thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

    Isa 1:19-20 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land: but if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of Jehovah hath spoken it.

    Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.

    Just because God may have predetermined plans for people, does not mean there is no alteration of that plan based upon man's actions.

    A Predestinist will state that God willed every one of Cain's actions, that he was Predestined to destruction. But it is clear to see from scripture even Cain could have been saved if he made the right choices.

    Gen 4:6-7 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? and why is your face sad? If you do well, will you not have honour? and if you do wrong, sin is waiting at the door, desiring to have you, but do not let it be your master.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
  11. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Yes context matters, and I don't agree with your take on the context.
     
  12. TzephanYahu

    TzephanYahu Member

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    Hi @Points To Ponder

    Forgive me if your question has already been answered, as I'm responding to your OP, which was a great question.

    I believe the answer is summed up in the Scripture "many are called but few are chosen".

    To adapt 2 parables used by the Messiah, imagine if you invited 100 people to a wedding. Effectively they would all be "predestined" for your party. But now if only 50 turn up appropriately dressed and sober, only they would be allowed into the event - they have proved that they are treating you with due respect and honour and are not just there for the food and drink.

    I believe that many have been created predestined for New Jerusalem, but unfortunately only few will be let in. Scripture after Scripture confirms this daunting truth. Conversely, there are those who are predestined not to be in New Jerusalem - a mystery Paul reveals to us.

    Or to adapt another parable - the Potter may "predestined" a lump of clay to be a beautiful vessel. But if the clay doesn't respond to his touch, it is made into a crude vessel instead.

    Therefore, we should walk humbly always. If we have been awoken to Messiah, then we are one of the called (predestined). But let's walk according to that calling lest we be found knocking on the doors of New Jerusalem shouting "Lord, Lord!"l

    Pretty morbid answer I know! But my honest one.

    Love & Shalom
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    No. We are not in the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25 gives us a glimpse of what the future Millennium will be like. Christ will live and reign physically a thousand years (Revelation 20:4).

    Side Note:

    Yes, it is called a New Heavens and New Earth, but this is not to be confused with the New Heavens and New Earth in Revelation because they do not sound even remotely the same.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Show me where it says this is referring to the Gentiles in Jeremiah 32.
     
  15. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    Christ already reigns (Matthew 28:18), and Satan is already bound from deceiving the nations (Matthew 12:29). The thousand years represent the Church age, and we are living in it. You may agree to disagree, but this has been the historical position of the Church.
     
  16. Carl Emerson

    Carl Emerson Well-Known Member

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    Show me where Paul says "Spiritual Israel" is just the Nation of Israel...
     
  17. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Yes, we will.
    I agree.
    The vail of the temple was rent in two at Christ's death to signify this.

    However, the Jews as a nation even today, refuse to accept that the Law of Moses has been done away with in Christ...
    That is part of why they continue in their blindness...until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
    What we are seeing is the devil not being bound, still accusing the brethren, still sending forth his false teachers and still deceiving the nations about Jesus Christ.
    He is still blinding the minds of men to the truth of the Gospel per 2 Corinthians 4:3-4.
    I agree.
    But you may wish to tell them that...

    They still want to erect another temple, and they've already gathered all the instruments to do it:
    The Temple Institute - Wikipedia
    The Temple Institute of Jerusalem - Learn About the Temple Institute
    Update on the Building of the Third Temple | Jewish Voice
    The Temple Vessels Are Ready for the Rebuilding of Jerusalem's Third Temple | Messianic Bible

    That said, I will limit any further replies to the subject of this thread, and a-millennialism, as I'm sure it has been discussed many times, can wait for those threads.

    May God bless you sir.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  18. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day, PTP

    The context of Rev 3:20 is the church... not sure what that has to do with Predestination:

    Correctly defined:

    Thayer Definition:
    1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
    2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
    3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    In Romans Paul is clear there are none that seek after God.... nobody seeks.
    In truth Jesus is the seeker he seeks and he finds.

    Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

    Lets see now this is written to Jewish believers as all the examples were from the OT.

    So it is true that without Faith God is not pleased... Agreed?
    Can we draw close to God with out Faith?
    Is not Faith the effective cause of our Drawing Close?
    Does our Faith and the exercise of please God?
    Where does Faith come from?
    Is God pleased with the anthesis that builds and funds a children's hospital?

    In Him,

    Bill
     
  19. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day,

    Just to be clear we all rightly deserve Hell there is nothing God has to do for us to be dammed.

    The fact that he chooses to save any is the Blessing of His Grace and Mercy.

    In Him,

    Bill
     
  20. BBAS 64

    BBAS 64 Contributor Supporter

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    Good Day, BHL

    Umm there you go again... illogical spam.

    Baseless assertion (strawman) fallacy.

    Primary historical source of anyone who ever said that and saying that it is not your first rodeo is not very useful.... so source please.

    for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

    The price of preacher notes here - God’s Will and Man’s Will by C. H. Spurgeon

    snip... But we do hold and teach that though the will of man is not ignored, and men are not saved against their wills, that the work of the Spirit, which is the effect of the will of God, is to change the human will, and so make men willing in the day of God's power, working in them to will to do of his own good pleasure. The work of the Spirit is consistent with the original laws and constitution of human nature. Ignorant men talk grossly and carnally about the work of the Spirit in the heart as if the heart were a lump of flesh, and the Holy Spirit turned it round mechanically. Now, brethren, how is your heart and my heart changed in any matter? Why, the instrument generally is persuasion. A friend sets before us a truth we did not know before; pleads with us; puts it in a new light, and then we say, "Now I see that," and then our hearts are changed towards the thing. Now, although no man's heart is changed by moral suasion in itself, yet the way in which the Spirit works in his heart, as far as we can detect it, is instrumentally by a blessed persuasion of the mind. I say not that men are saved by moral suasion, or that this is the first cause, but I think it is frequently the visible means. As to the secret work, who knows how the Spirit works?

    In Him,

    Bill;
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2021
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