Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Jonaitis

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What New Testament passage, or verse do you believe directly takes from Ezekiel 36:26-27? I don't believe this is in reference to the Gentiles. I believe it is clearly talking to Israel.
It refers to the eschatological Israel of Old Testament prophecy - the Church. For "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring" (Romans 9:6). This is the same in Jeremiah 31:31-34, where God speaking to the Jews states that in the latter days he will establish a "new covenant" with the people unlike their former covenant in the wilderness. In this "new covenant," they will have the law written on their hearts, they will all know God and that their sins will be forgiven. The mystery hidden for ages that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 3:4-6 is that Gentiles will share in the benefits of this new covenant, fellow heirs and partakers with the believing Jews. They will participate in every aspect in salvation God promised to the Jews.

So we are the true Israel, spoken by the prophets about these latter times. We were grafted into this cultivated olive tree, whereas the unbelieving Jews were broken off from it. So these promises you read in the Old Testament have Christological reference to the Church, as Peter said, "It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look" (1 Peter 1:12).
Jesus had first come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24). Jesus told specifically the disciples not to go into the way of the Gentiles (Matthew 10:5). So Jesus was referring to the Jews because that was his audience in John 6:44. He was not talking to Gentiles. The disciples were Jewish and they did receive his message.
Did Jesus first choose his apostles, or did they first choose him?
 
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“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deuteronomy 30:19).
 
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It refers to the eschatological Israel of Old Testament prophecy - the Church. For "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring" (Romans 9:6). This is the same in Jeremiah 31:31-34, where God speaking to the Jews states that in the latter days he will establish a "new covenant" with the people unlike their former covenant in the wilderness. In this "new covenant," they will have the law written on their hearts, they will all know God and that their sins will be forgiven. The mystery hidden for ages that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 3:4-6 is that Gentiles will share in the benefits of this new covenant, fellow heirs and partakers with the believing Jews. They will participate in every aspect in salvation God promised to the Jews.

The Gentiles came into the New Covenant through Israel's fall (Romans 11:11). No doubt about it.
But Jeremiah 31:34 specifically states that they are no longer going to say: “Know the Lord.” because everyone will already know the Lord. This can only be the future Millennium. Today, we are still telling others to: “Know the Lord.” Thus, this prophecy is not fulfilled yet.

You said:
So we are the true Israel, spoken by the prophets about these latter times. We were grafted into this cultivated olive tree, whereas the unbelieving Jews were broken off from it. So these promises you read in the Old Testament have Christological reference to the Church, as Peter said, "It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look" (1 Peter 1:12).

Did Jesus first choose his apostles, or did they first choose him?

Yes, Gentiles can be Israelites inwardly. But there is a also fulfillment of prophecy for physical Israel, too. God has not cast away His people (Israel the nation). While we have been grafted in, they will repent shortly before the return of the Lord (with His Second Coming).
 
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Also, Revelation 3:20 says “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

While this is said to the church at Laodicea only, then why does it say if ANY MAN hear my voice?

You would also have to believe that Laodicea was a carve-out. The Elect are those who Elected to answer the door.
 
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Jonaitis

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The Gentiles came into the New Covenant through Israel's fall (Romans 11:11). No doubt about it. But Jeremiah 31:34 specifically states that they are no longer going to say: “Know the Lord.” because everyone will already know the Lord. This can only be the future Millennium. Today, we are still telling others to: “Know the Lord.” Thus, this prophecy is not fulfilled yet.
We are in the Millennium. The ones who will "know the Lord" are Christians, from both the Jews and the Gentiles. Jeremiah 31:31-34 isn't discussing a distant time, it is talking about now. Have you read Hebrews 8?
Yes, Gentiles can be Israelites inwardly. But there is a also fulfillment of prophecy for physical Israel, too. God has not cast away His people (Israel the nation). While we have been grafted in, they will repent shortly before the return of the Lord (with His Second Coming).
There is no longer a physical Israel, just as there is no longer animal sacrifices. The nation of Israel typified the Church, and she has fulfilled her purpose and is now obsolete.
 
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Did Jesus first choose his apostles, or did they first choose him?[/QUOTE]

Did he choose Judas? I don't think Jesus makes bad choices. If you think he chose Judas for his purpose then you must apply that logic to the apostles.
 
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Jonaitis

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Did he choose Judas? I don't think Jesus makes bad choices. If you think he chose Judas for his purpose then you must apply that logic to the apostles.

"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus."
- Acts 1:16

It seems apparent that Judas was predetermined, by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David, to betray Jesus.
 
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d taylor

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But then how do you deal with 2 Thessalonians 2:10? It says that those who perish are perishing because THEY received not the love of the truth THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. There is no... MIGHT BE SAVED in Calvinism. But that's what my Bible says. I will stick with my Bible instead.

I do not have to deal with it that is during the tribulation.
 
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"Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus."
- Acts 1:16

It seems apparent that Judas was predetermined, by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David, to betray Jesus.

I do not disagree with that. I do not think predetermined prophesy implies that some are chosen for salvation and others are not. I also do not think that just because God knows what our choices are going to be that he eliminates free will from our life.

The one thing I'm very certain of is that this issue will not be resolved until the day of judgment.
 
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Jonaitis

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I do not disagree with that. I do not think predetermined prophesy implies that some are chosen for salvation and others are not. I also do not think that just because God knows what our choices are going to be that he eliminates free will from our life.

The one thing I'm very certain of is that this issue will not be resolved until the day of judgment.

Do you believe Judas was the only person to ever be predestined, and that for damnation? This is what I see from your reply.

While I agree this issue will be resolved between Christians on the last day, saying that shouldn't prevent you from understanding it. There is no doctrine that does not edify the believer and strengthen his love for Christ. I believe it is important to understand the high doctrine of predestination for the comfort and encouragement of the Christian, especially when they have doubts and fears about their salvation, or when they suffer for the faith.
 
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Mark Quayle

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I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.
The debate was apparent in the Apostle Paul's time, even. He had to go to great lengths to explain grace vs works.

Calvinism doesn't claim works are not necessary. It only says the works do not save, but are the direct result of regeneration --not the cause of regeneration. If one doesn't believe, repent, obey, that one is not of the Elect. And if one thinks they have believed, repented, obeyed apart from the work of the indwelling Spirit of God, they have fooled themselves, and are still at enmity with God.
 
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Navair2

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I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20).
Respectfully, it's been going on since long before that.
Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part.
On the believer's part, I would agree.
Because that is what God wants His children to do.:)
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Bible Highlighter,
[Also, those guys back then also wrote in a way that is very difficult to understand.
This is not my first rodeo in discussing Calvinism, either.
I have been discussing it for about 10 years.]


Sorry but these truths are God given so there is no dumbing them down.
You can caricature and make strawmen all day, but it is to no avail. The truth stands.
Your carnal reasoning is sub biblical.
My grandchildren can understand what the confession says. You do not really want answers.
 
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Navair2

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I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently.
For some reason, I toss out logic and simply believe his words.

Faith in His words isn't logical, as they tell me some pretty "illogical" things, from man's point of view.
That is why the Lord tells His people to trust Him, and not their own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me.
I agree.
If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.
Once again, I agree.
Now, if you carefully read the Scriptures ( For example, Ephesians 2:8 and Galatians 2:20 ) where did your faith come from?

Mine came from Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 12:2.

It is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
 
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Navair2

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The Elect are those who Elected to answer the door.
I see Scripture teaching that the elect are those who elected to answer the door after the Lord opened their hearts ( similar to Lydia's in Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) and they heard His words and believed them.
 
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Navair2

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Did he choose Judas?
Yes.

" Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." ( John 6:70-71 )
I don't think Jesus makes bad choices.
Neither do I.
If you think he chose Judas for his purpose then you must apply that logic to the apostles.
Again, I don't trust my own logic when it comes to God's word;
I set it aside and trust Him, who tells me that my logic isn't to be trusted ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).

But to address the comment,
I see that He did indeed choose both Judas and His apostles.

Judas was chosen so that he might fulfill the Scriptures ( John 17:12 ).
 
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Navair2

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The one thing I'm very certain of is that this issue will not be resolved until the day of judgment.
Of that you can be sure, my friend.

But with me it is very much resolved, and I have found that no amount of presenting the Scriptures or in trying to persuade someone one way or another, will ever do what the work of God alone does through His Spirit and through His precious words.

Good evening to you.
 
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Navair2

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We are in the Millennium.
No, we are not.
If we were, we would be ruling and reigning with Christ from Jerusalem ( Revelation 20, Micah 4 ), and not still awaiting His bodily return.
There is no longer a physical Israel, just as there is no longer animal sacrifices.
Yes there is, and yes there will be.
When the 3rd temple gets built and the sacrifices re-instated by unbelieving Jews ( many of whom will later believe at His coming again ) who want it to happen, will you then believe it?

I hope so, my friend.
It's in the works, and soon to start.;)
 
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Jonaitis

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Yes there is, and yes there will be. When the 3rd temple gets built and the sacrifices re-instated by unbelieving Jews ( many of whom will later believe at His coming again ) who want it to happen, will you then believe it?

We will have to agree to disagree. Israel was founded on the Old Covenant, and Hebrews 8:13 states that the old has become obsolete. There will not be a third temple, there will not be re-instated sacrifices. What we are seeing currently is an act of rebellion against the Lord of hosts. This is why they remain in conflict with the Palestinians and their Temple in rubble. They are, without Christ, nothing.
 
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