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Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Points To Ponder, May 4, 2021.

  1. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    As for those who seek Him in Hebrews 11:6:

    “And ye shall seek me, and find me,
    when ye shall search for me with all your heart.”
    (Jeremiah 29:13).
     
  2. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    It refers to the eschatological Israel of Old Testament prophecy - the Church. For "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring" (Romans 9:6). This is the same in Jeremiah 31:31-34, where God speaking to the Jews states that in the latter days he will establish a "new covenant" with the people unlike their former covenant in the wilderness. In this "new covenant," they will have the law written on their hearts, they will all know God and that their sins will be forgiven. The mystery hidden for ages that Paul speaks of in Ephesians 3:4-6 is that Gentiles will share in the benefits of this new covenant, fellow heirs and partakers with the believing Jews. They will participate in every aspect in salvation God promised to the Jews.

    So we are the true Israel, spoken by the prophets about these latter times. We were grafted into this cultivated olive tree, whereas the unbelieving Jews were broken off from it. So these promises you read in the Old Testament have Christological reference to the Church, as Peter said, "It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look" (1 Peter 1:12).
    Did Jesus first choose his apostles, or did they first choose him?
     
  3. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deuteronomy 30:19).
     
  4. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    The Gentiles came into the New Covenant through Israel's fall (Romans 11:11). No doubt about it.
    But Jeremiah 31:34 specifically states that they are no longer going to say: “Know the Lord.” because everyone will already know the Lord. This can only be the future Millennium. Today, we are still telling others to: “Know the Lord.” Thus, this prophecy is not fulfilled yet.

    Yes, Gentiles can be Israelites inwardly. But there is a also fulfillment of prophecy for physical Israel, too. God has not cast away His people (Israel the nation). While we have been grafted in, they will repent shortly before the return of the Lord (with His Second Coming).
     
  5. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    You would also have to believe that Laodicea was a carve-out. The Elect are those who Elected to answer the door.
     
  6. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    We are in the Millennium. The ones who will "know the Lord" are Christians, from both the Jews and the Gentiles. Jeremiah 31:31-34 isn't discussing a distant time, it is talking about now. Have you read Hebrews 8?
    There is no longer a physical Israel, just as there is no longer animal sacrifices. The nation of Israel typified the Church, and she has fulfilled her purpose and is now obsolete.
     
  7. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    Did Jesus first choose his apostles, or did they first choose him?[/QUOTE]

    Did he choose Judas? I don't think Jesus makes bad choices. If you think he chose Judas for his purpose then you must apply that logic to the apostles.
     
  8. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    "Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus."
    - Acts 1:16

    It seems apparent that Judas was predetermined, by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of David, to betray Jesus.
     
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  9. d taylor

    d taylor Well-Known Member

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    I do not have to deal with it that is during the tribulation.
     
  10. Points To Ponder

    Points To Ponder The Scriptures are the foundation of my faith.

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    I do not disagree with that. I do not think predetermined prophesy implies that some are chosen for salvation and others are not. I also do not think that just because God knows what our choices are going to be that he eliminates free will from our life.

    The one thing I'm very certain of is that this issue will not be resolved until the day of judgment.
     
  11. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    Do you believe Judas was the only person to ever be predestined, and that for damnation? This is what I see from your reply.

    While I agree this issue will be resolved between Christians on the last day, saying that shouldn't prevent you from understanding it. There is no doctrine that does not edify the believer and strengthen his love for Christ. I believe it is important to understand the high doctrine of predestination for the comfort and encouragement of the Christian, especially when they have doubts and fears about their salvation, or when they suffer for the faith.
     
  12. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The debate was apparent in the Apostle Paul's time, even. He had to go to great lengths to explain grace vs works.

    Calvinism doesn't claim works are not necessary. It only says the works do not save, but are the direct result of regeneration --not the cause of regeneration. If one doesn't believe, repent, obey, that one is not of the Elect. And if one thinks they have believed, repented, obeyed apart from the work of the indwelling Spirit of God, they have fooled themselves, and are still at enmity with God.
     
  13. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Respectfully, it's been going on since long before that.
    On the believer's part, I would agree.
    Because that is what God wants His children to do.:)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  14. ICONO'CLAST

    ICONO'CLAST Well-Known Member

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    Bible Highlighter,
    [Also, those guys back then also wrote in a way that is very difficult to understand.
    This is not my first rodeo in discussing Calvinism, either.
    I have been discussing it for about 10 years.]


    Sorry but these truths are God given so there is no dumbing them down.
    You can caricature and make strawmen all day, but it is to no avail. The truth stands.
    Your carnal reasoning is sub biblical.
    My grandchildren can understand what the confession says. You do not really want answers.
     
  15. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    For some reason, I toss out logic and simply believe his words.

    Faith in His words isn't logical, as they tell me some pretty "illogical" things, from man's point of view.
    That is why the Lord tells His people to trust Him, and not their own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).
    I agree.
    Once again, I agree.
    Now, if you carefully read the Scriptures ( For example, Ephesians 2:8 and Galatians 2:20 ) where did your faith come from?

    Mine came from Jesus Christ:
    Hebrews 12:2.

    It is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things not seen ( Hebrews 11:1 ).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  16. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    I see Scripture teaching that the elect are those who elected to answer the door after the Lord opened their hearts ( similar to Lydia's in Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ) and they heard His words and believed them.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2021
  17. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Yes.

    " Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
    71 He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." ( John 6:70-71 )
    Neither do I.
    Again, I don't trust my own logic when it comes to God's word;
    I set it aside and trust Him, who tells me that my logic isn't to be trusted ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).

    But to address the comment,
    I see that He did indeed choose both Judas and His apostles.

    Judas was chosen so that he might fulfill the Scriptures ( John 17:12 ).
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  18. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    Of that you can be sure, my friend.

    But with me it is very much resolved, and I have found that no amount of presenting the Scriptures or in trying to persuade someone one way or another, will ever do what the work of God alone does through His Spirit and through His precious words.

    Good evening to you.
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2021
  19. Navair2

    Navair2 May the Lord Jesus Christ be magnified above all

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    No, we are not.
    If we were, we would be ruling and reigning with Christ from Jerusalem ( Revelation 20, Micah 4 ), and not still awaiting His bodily return.
    Yes there is, and yes there will be.
    When the 3rd temple gets built and the sacrifices re-instated by unbelieving Jews ( many of whom will later believe at His coming again ) who want it to happen, will you then believe it?

    I hope so, my friend.
    It's in the works, and soon to start.;)
     
  20. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    We will have to agree to disagree. Israel was founded on the Old Covenant, and Hebrews 8:13 states that the old has become obsolete. There will not be a third temple, there will not be re-instated sacrifices. What we are seeing currently is an act of rebellion against the Lord of hosts. This is why they remain in conflict with the Palestinians and their Temple in rubble. They are, without Christ, nothing.
     
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