Predestination vs. Seeking, knocking and Answering the Door

[d taylor]

Scripture reference?

Luke 21

 

[fhansen]

The issue does not regard the will, the issue regards what controls, influences the will; i.e., the disposition--what one prefers, desires.

Time now to take our learning, not from philosophy's concepts, principles and terms, but from Scripture's.
Adam is the one responsible for the disposition we now inherit, a disposition to self and sin.
Adam is the one responsible for the condemnation into which all are born (Romans 5:18),
for our being by nature (birth) objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
We are culpable for Adam's guilt under which we are born, because by our sinning against God, we show that we are in agreement with Adam and deserve what he deserved.

We are culpable, and we are worthy of eternal torment.

But I can't help thinking you're making a distinction without any real difference, Clare. You're saying that fallen man is not responsible to begin with for his wrong desires and therefore for willing wrongly, but that he's culpable nonetheless and must suffer eternal torment unless God gives him right desires, that cause him to will rightly. From the big picture we're back to a puppet show- but with very ugly consequences for an unlucky portion of the puppets.

In historical Christian teachings the human will is actually the prize, that which God seeks to draw into rectitude without overriding it completely-simply because He wants it involved. Man has a choice-he's always had a choice- between good and evil, life and death, God or no God-and God will do everything to help him make the right choice, to bring him to that edge, but refuses to make it for him. Because to the extent that we're truly involved in making it, only then does our justice or righteousness begin to sprout and blossom. We don't need to over-complicate the matter.

 

[Navair2]

Right, and it is our own personal non-authoritative interpretation that distinguishes which is which.

Clare,
I don't have any authority to tell you what to believe...

You have the right to your opinions, and if we disagree, I go my way and you go yours.
Can two walk together unless they be agreed ( Amos 3:3 )?
No.
Since we are in disagreement with what the Scriptures actually say about His second coming, then we have a problem...
And it doesn't look like it will be solved anytime soon.


At this point,
I'll go my way, you go yours, and some day we may see each other in the clouds.

 

[Navair2]

Do you have a way of stating the principle common to all those verses?

Why not read them and tell me, in your own words, what you see them saying?

So you can translate it in comparison to another group of verses with a different principle, without having to cite 59 verses as demonstration for everyone to sort out?

Never mind then, and my apologies...
I thought you already knew what those all said, without having to break things down.

Do we need to re-invent the wheel here?

Oops...

Based on your reactions to this and to some of my prior posts,
I think it's time for me to go, Clare.
It seems I've wandered in where I definitely do not belong.

Thanks for the interaction, and perhaps someday we'll talk again.


Goodbye,
and I wish you well and God's blessings upon your life and walk with Him.

 

[Clare73]

Luke 21

I don't see anything there about seven years.

And this refers to Jesus second coming (Luke 21:27), at the end of time (Luke 21:25-26, Matthew 24:30-31, 1 Thessalonians 4:17).

 

[Clare73]

But I can't help thinking you're making a distinction without any real difference, Clare. You're saying that fallen man is not responsible to begin with for his wrong desires and therefore for willing wrongly, but that he's culpable nonetheless

I hear you, and I understand.

I'm saying that Paul reveals that God imputes Adam's sin to mankind, for which men are thereby responsible (Romans 5:16a, Romans 5:18a, Romans 5:19a).

and must suffer eternal torment unless God gives him right desires, that cause him to will rightly.

That is correct.

Paul reveals that God imputes Adam's guilt to man (Romans 5:12-14), by which guilt all mankind is condemned (Romans 5:18).
Paul also reveals that God imputes Christ's own righteousness to man (Romans 5:16b, Romans 5:18b, Romans 5:19b) through faith.
This is why Jesus is called the second Adam. His righteousness is imputed to us just as Adam's guilt is imputed to us.

From the big picture we're back to a puppet show- but with very ugly consequences for an unlucky portion of the puppets.

How is that any different from God loving Jacob and hating Esau before they were even born (Romans 9:10-13), so that Jacob was the puppet who received God's blessing, and Esau was the puppet who was rejected. . .before they were even born?

See Paul's answer to this, which meaning is unmistakable, in Romans 9:14-21.
You must reckon with this if you are going to understand God's will and God's way,
which human wisdom finds inscrutable, complicated and foolish (1 Corinthians 1:20-21, 1 Corinthians 2:12-14).

In historical Christian teachings the human will is actually the prize, that which God seeks to draw into rectitude

That may be the case in historical Christianity, but that is not presented in the NT.

without overriding it completely-simply because He wants it involved.

And you know he wants it involved, how?

Nevertheless, man's will is involved, just not according to man's wisdom, but according to God's wisdom; i.e., God works in the disposition (heart) of man disposing him to prefer God, and then man freely and willingly chooses to believe and obey God.

Man has a choice-he's always had a choice- between good and evil, life and death, God or no God-and God will do everything to help him make the right choice, to bring him to that edge, but refuses to make it for him. Because to the extent that we're truly involved in making it, only then does our justice or righteousness begin to sprout and blossom.

We have no righteousness that justifies (removes guilt), it is Christ's righteousness imputed to us through faith which justifies (justification, Romans 4:5), and then we grow in the righteousness of sanctification.

We don't need to over-complicate the matter.

That would be the response of human wisdom to divine wisdom, none of which alters Paul's revelation concerning the condemnation of man for the guilt of Adam's sin imputed to him (Romans 5:18-19, Romans 5:12-14) and concerning the salvation of man by the righteousness of Jesus Christ imputed to him through faith apart from works (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21, Romans 3:28).

 

[Clare73]

Why not read them and tell me, in your own words, what you see them saying?

God's eternal effective will would be, I think, a good way to describe what I think you believe, "effective" indicating God accomplishes his will.

Never mind then, and my apologies...
I thought you already knew what those all said, without having to break things down.

What we don't know is if we understand them all the same way.
Stating the principle which they present makes clear what you see them to mean, so I can understand what you think.

I have to read them to determine precisely what they are stating.

Oops...

Based on your reactions to this and to some of my prior posts,
I think it's time for me to go, Clare.
It seems I've wandered in where I definitely do not belong.

Thanks for the interaction, and perhaps someday we'll talk again.
Goodbye, and I wish you well and God's blessings upon your life and walk with Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Does Paul know which God has done. . .so how would you have him state it?
There is only one way to know and one way to state it, based on their actions.

All scripture is written by divine inspiration so if Paul wrote in the scriptures that these people have been grafted in by God then it must be true otherwise the statement is false and not inspired by God. If we can’t accept God’s word as absolute truth then we’ll end up with all sorts of false doctrines based on our own presumptions.

 

[spiritfilledjm]

I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.

I've always viewed the relationship of free-will and predestination as a parent sitting their child on their lap and letting them steer the vehicle. The parent is truly in control but in the child's mind, they are. Essentially, I believe it is a bit of both. Because we have verses like the ones mentioned that clearly indicate choices, and verses like Ephesians 1:5 that say, "Predestined" and Romans 9:16 that say that "it does not depend on human will." However in multiple verses all throughout the Bible it says that we must believe. Believe is a verb. Therefore, it must be both. The Bible cannot contradict itself, otherwise it is wrong and is not the Word of God. Therefore, it must be both in a way that only God understands.

 

[Clare73]

Clare,
I don't have any authority to tell you what to believe...

You have the right to your opinions, and if we disagree, I go my way and you go yours.
Can two walk together unless they be agreed ( Amos 3:3 )?
No.
Since we are in disagreement with what the Scriptures actually say about His second coming, then we have a problem...
And it doesn't look like it will be solved anytime soon.

Yes, we disagree whether all prophecy is literal. I see a lot of symbolic expression in prophecy which is not to be interpreted literally.

At this point,

I'll go my way, you go yours, and some day we may see each other in the clouds.

 

[BNR32FAN]

That is his foreknowledge.
God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made before they were created (foreknowledge).
God executed/accomplished his foreknowledge (previous choice and purpose).

It has been stated clearly enough for your understanding.
This is not about lack of understanding.

Ok I’ll try to explain this one last time. Your saying that the word foreknowledge is His choosing before creation so let’s replace the word foreknowledge in Peter’s statement with His choosing before creation.


“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, T o those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the choice before creation of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So Peter is saying that God chose them according to His choosing them before creation? If they were chosen before creation then He didn’t have to choose them again when they were living. If they were already chosen then there’s no more choice that needs to be made, it’s already a done deal. This is why your interpretation of this doesn’t make sense.

 

[Clare73]

All scripture is written by divine inspiration so if Paul wrote in the scriptures that these people have been grafted in by God then it must be true otherwise the statement is false and not inspired by God. If we can’t accept God’s word as absolute truth then we’ll end up with all sorts of false doctrines based on our own presumptions.

Paul does not write they have been grafted in, Paul writes they will be grafted in if they do not persist in unbelief (Romans 11:23).
Without knowing God's destiny for them, Paul can state it only in terms of their action; i.e., faith, which would reveal God's destiny of salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Ok I’ll try to explain this one last time. Your saying that the word foreknowledge is His choosing before creation so let’s replace the word foreknowledge in Peter’s statement with His choosing before creation.

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, T o those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
who are chosen according to the choice before creation of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭1:1-2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So Peter is saying that God chose them according to His choosing them before creation? If they were chosen before creation then He didn’t have to choose them again when they were living. If they were already chosen then there’s no more choice that needs to be made, it’s already a done deal. This is why your interpretation of this doesn’t make sense.

Thanks, that was helpful.

Yes, God chose them (in the present) according to his choosing them before creation (in the past).

Just as: I decided over the weekend that of those applying, I would give it to Irma,
so Monday at the assembly, I gave it to Irma, choosing her over the others.

I chose Irma (in the present) according to my choosing her over the weekend (in the past).

God executed in their present the choice and purpose he made before they were created (foreknowledge).
God executed/accomplished (in the present) his foreknowledge (his past choice and purpose).

 

[BobRyan]

I know that a debate has continued since Calvin and will continue until the Rapture BUT I'm curious how the debate on grace alone and predestination are rationalized with scriptures that mention "seek the Lord" "answering the door" (Rev 3:20). Why answer the door if it's not necessary? It certainly looks like some action is required on our part. Why "seek" Hebrews 11:6. I just cannot ignore the simple logic in the scripture and go through scripture gymnastics to see things differently. When scripture is defined by the context it seems overwhelmingly clear to me. If exercising faith is a "Works" then answering the door and seeking are much more so.

1. Agreed - those are never what the Bible calls "works of the law". "Works" etc.
2. Rom 10:9-10 and Rev 3:20 agree

9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

I've always viewed the relationship of free-will and predestination as a parent sitting their child on their lap and letting them steer the vehicle. The parent is truly in control but in the child's mind, they are. Essentially, I believe it is a bit of both. Because we have verses like the ones mentioned that clearly indicate choices, and verses like Ephesians 1:5 that say, "Predestined" and Romans 9:16 that say that "it does not depend on human will." However in multiple verses all throughout the Bible it says that we must believe. Believe is a verb. Therefore, it must be both. The Bible cannot contradict itself, otherwise it is wrong and is not the Word of God. Therefore, it must be both in a way that only God understands.

Is 5:4 - God's lament when He sees Israel in rebellion "what MORE could I have done than that which I have already done? Why then when I expected success did it fail?"

What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

John 1:11 "He came to HIS OWN and His OWN received Him not"

2 Peter 3 "God is not WILLING for any to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"

2 Cor 5 - 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

God is not a respecter of persons in that He does not regard anything they are, possess, or do to grant them His favor and saving grace...

And He always judges righteously.

What separated Noah from the rest of man?

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: “ I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Romans 9 is about the children of God ( Romans 9:6-8 ).
It is about vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy ( Romans 9:22-24 ), both Jew and Gentile.

Exactly.
Not according to who runs ( works ) for it, or uses their belief to get it.

It is of grace, not of man's efforts ( Romans 11:5-6 ) or of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
If a person approaches the Lord with the idea of using something ( anything ) to actually influence the Lord to do something or to gain His unmerited favor, they've missed what grace really is...

It cannot be merited.

If it could, then He would be a respecter of persons.

Why did God show favor on Rahab?

 

[fhansen]

I'm saying that Paul reveals that God imputes Adam's sin to mankind, for which men are thereby responsible (Romans 5:16a, Romans 5:18a, Romans 5:19a).

"Responsible" means that they have a choice, that they can do otherwise even if a divine hand reaching down first of all and offering to pull us up is essential.

Paul reveals that God imputes Adam's guilt to man (Romans 5:12-14), by which guilt all mankind is condemned (Romans 5:18).

Well, it doesn't say God imputes it, but He obviously allows the consequences of Adams' sin to be shared by all, the main consequence being spiritual separation from God, aka the "death of the soul", aka original sin. We're born into that state of ignorance of God along with a tacit desire to keep things that way, born of our own pride. This is why faith is so critical, as the means by which man humbly turns back to God, and is reconciled with Him.

Paul also reveals that God imputes Christ's own righteousness to man (Romans 5:16b, Romans 5:18b, Romans 5:19b) through faith.

This is why Jesus is called the second Adam. His righteousness is imputed to us just as Adam's guilt is imputed to us.

You’re failing to understand that Jesus’s righteousness is not merely imputed to us, which Rom 5:16-19 doesn’t say anyway, and is concept which at best reflects the truth that we’re freely and gratuitously forgiven and cleansed at justification. But said righteousness is actually given; we’re made just at justification, indicated in the same chapter in Romans by passages such as:
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom 5:5

"For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!" Rom 5:17

And so, since justice/righteousness is actually possessed by us now, at least in seedling form in need of being professed, expressed, exercised, nurtured, and grown, it can also be compromised and lost by the way we live our lives, by living very unjustly. Sin can still earn a believer death IOW: separation from God as a branch cut back off.

How is that any different from God loving Jacob and hating Esau before they were even born (Romans 9:10-13), so that Jacob was the puppet who received God's blessing, and Esau was the puppet who was rejected. . .before they were even born?

What kind of “God” would torture His puppets eternally? And we don't even know if Esau is now and forever being tormented for that matter.

See Paul's answer to this, which meaning is unmistakable, in Romans 9:14-21.
You must reckon with this if you are going to understand God's will and God's way, which human wisdom finds inscrutable, complicated and foolish (1 Corinthians 1:20-21, 1 Corinthians 2:12-14).

Nah. Especially in the light of all Scripture being considered, it’s obvious that Paul isn’t endeavoring in Rom 9 to put forth some kind of precisely conceived and worded theological doctrine on predestination, but seeks to answer some lingering questions, even asking “What if…?” in verse 22. There are simply way too many verses and passages that place an onus on man to do his part in order to gain eternal life. This is why there have been a great deal of differing positions on this matter over the centuries. Scripture was never intended to serve as a clear and systematic catechism which is why it can seem vague, ambiguous, and even contradictory at times-and why there’s often so much disagreement over its interpretation among Sola Scriptura adherents. And either way we can’t know with absolute certainty that we’re numbered among the elect to begin with, or able to predict whether we’ll persevere to the end, IOW.

And you know he wants it involved, how?

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Pet 3:9

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Tim 2:3

Does that sound like someone who knows that all people, even those called, will necessarily repent? If He wants all to be saved, then why are not all saved? So, yes, He deems that the will of man be involved. This is why, when Jesus says in Matt 16,
“If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.”

Or this in Rev 3,
“If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me”,

He doesn’t follow up with,
“But, come to think of it, you will come no matter what so those words aren’t really necessary, theologically speaking. Don’t worry about it, I got you covered. And no one else really needs to hear them either since they’re destined to die in their sins anyway.”

One real criteria for salvation is not dying in our sins. And this is why Jesus came to take away sins, to conquer sin in us so that we’ll “go, and sin no more”, as He instructed the woman caught in adultery. Because,
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom 6:22-23

So then,
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, as an offering for sin. He thus condemned sin in the flesh, so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:1-4

And then we must continue to walk according to the Sprit, as our option:
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

Now in partnership with God, equipped by the Spirit, we can work out our salvation. That’s what we can know for sure. Similarly, the reason that God is so pleased in Heb 11:6 by our faith isn’t because he made us believe, which would be rather absurd, but because we believe without that faith being strictly caused, because we could do otherwise; we can reject the gift of faith, IOW.

And then we have the multitude of verses instructing, exhorting, warning, admonishing, and encouraging believers to strive, to endure to the end, to be vigilant, to be holy, to obey the law, to love, to forgive others their sins, to remain in Christ, to refrain from sin, etc, all with eternal life at stake.

See Nevertheless, man's will is involved, just not according to man's wisdom, but according to God's wisdom; i.e., God works in the disposition (heart) of man disposing him to prefer God, and then man freely and willingly chooses to believe and obey God.

Again, a distinction without a difference. The will of man is uninvolved in any meaningfully sense here.

See We have no righteousness that justifies (removes guilt), it is Christ's righteousness imputed to us through faith which justifies (justification, Romans 4:5), and then we grow in the righteousness of sanctification.

We have no justice or righteousness apart from God-that's the basis of the New Covenant. Man’s first step is to turn to Him in faith, then He begins to ‘place His law in our minds and write it on our hearts’-Jer 31:33. We agree that God can make man personally righteous. In Catholicism justified man, now on track with God, a partnership which, itself, constitutes the right and just order of things for man, is finally able to fulfill the destiny he was made for, maintaining and growing in the righteousness now sown in him, growing in love to put it most accurately. He can also turn back away. The will remains involved throughout this life. So, again, God's Church can wisely and rightly teach,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

 

[friend of]

Now in partnership with God, equipped by the Spirit, we can work out our salvation. That’s what we can know for sure. Similarly, the reason that God is so pleased in Heb 11:6 by our faith isn’t because he made us believe, which would be rather absurd, but because we believe without that faith being strictly caused, because we could do otherwise IOW

Yeah it never made sense to me that God would be pleased with faith that He personally generated. Surely He is pleased with faith that the world seems foolish. 2 Corinthians 1:21

 

[fhansen]

Yeah it never made sense to me that God would be pleased with faith that He personally generated. Surely He is pleased with faith that the world seems foolish. 2 Corinthians 1:21

Well, yes-faith is said to be both a supernatural gift as well as a human choice and act-because we can reject it-and because we should sort of already know it's right, when we see it.