Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

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A man rapes and murders a person, by his own free will, but yet it was part of God Will to do it?

Not part of his will in that he wanted, planned or desired that it should happen, but he knew it WAS happening - because the only alternative is to suggest that he was asleep, negligent or simply unable to prevent the devil doing something. The latter would mean that he is not God and does not have power over the devil.
 
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SeraphimsCherub

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IMO it just redefines "murder".
But God did not "cause" them to sin.
He does not tempt with sin.
Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) Isa 5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Romans 13:1 (KJV)
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Ooooh, looks like ol-free-willie is going to choke himself to death when he read's those:

Word's LORD!i!



 
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SeraphimsCherub

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Seraphimscherub, it would be a lot easier to read your post if you did not write it in various sizes with all the bits that you want to emphasise bolded, underlined and written even larger.

I feel as though I'm being shouted at, and shouting loudly about something, does not make it right.
I'm sorry! I was just making it big so that it would be easy for people to read!
 
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Rick Otto

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Personally I can't believe in predestination because of what Scripture says, and what I know, about the character of God.

Scripture says that -
God made us in his image (Gen 1:26)
God put HIS breath in us (Gen 2:7)
God saw us even before we'd been born, knows all our ways, everything about us and how long we will live (Psalm 139)
God is our Father (Matt 6:9, 32) and that if our earthly fathers know how to give us good things, how much more will God (Matt 7:9-12.)
God is love (1 John 4:8). A good description of love is given in 1 Cor 13:4-8.

Quite simply, my own father would never have got my mother pregnant knowing that he wanted nothing to do with the child when it was born, having made up his mind to disown and disinherit it - not because he didn't want more children, but because he didn't want that particular one; so why would God?
Why would God give someone life/allow them to be born knowing that his plans for them were ultimately that they spend eternity without getting to know the One who made them? That's not love.

Yes, I know there are Scriptures which use the word "predestined"; that doen't necessarily mean that the authors had that scenario - ie God creating someone with the intention of sending them to hell, never giving them the opportunity to find him - in mind. They may have meant something else by the word, or maybe it meant something different when it was first used.

If God WANTED to send people to hell, he could have sent us all there, and never sent Jesus at all. Why would he - who is perfect, holy and above all, love - pick and choose which of his children to save? I.e, "I fancy saving that one, but not him/her?"
Because He is God & it is His determinate council to make:
Ephesians 1:
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[6] To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[7] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[8] Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

& Romans 9:
[11] (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;[12] It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.[13] As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.[16] So then it *(election unto salvation)*is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


Question Gods motives? Not a good idea.

[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


Nevertheless, He DOES tell us why:

[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
[25] As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
[26] And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

[31] But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[32] Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
[33] As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

I love predestination (God in control):cool:
 
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PassthePeace1

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Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) Isa 5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The usage of the word evil in that passage, is referring to more of a disturbance, or a rebuke and not evil in the sense of sin. The New King James translates it into calamity.

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I make peace and create calamity;
I, the LORD, do all these things.’
 
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Markea

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Men arrest and crucify His only begotten Son. Yet it was part of God's will they do it?

According to the foreknowledge of God, absolutely... the OT pointed to it all in countless ways.

Peter denied Christ and the LORD knew that he would, that doesn't mean that the Lord made Peter deny Him...

I can tell my son that if he drinks and drives he will eventually get into an accident and possibly hurt somebody... so am I making him do it or do I know it will happen ?

I don't understand why it's difficult to differentiate the two... knowing something versus making it happen...
 
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SeraphimsCherub

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You see...God already knew all who were His Subjectively within His Mind,as He thought about us, even you,and me right this very moment from before the foundation of the world. through the Omni-Present point of View of His Eternal All Circumferencing Present Perspective of our objective form {now}, through His Spirit from the Present Perspective of Himself then!
 
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Markea

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Absolutely God foreknows everything... the OT and the NT prophetic book of Revelation show us that in vivid detail... this in no way demands that He forces or makes everything happen.

Who here would believe that the LORD made Peter deny Him, rather than simply knowing that he would..?
 
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Rick Otto

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The usage of the word evil in that passage, is referring to more of a disturbance, or a rebuke and not evil in the sense of sin. The New King James translates it into calamity.
Evil is evil, be it sin or calamity.
Who created the tree of knowlege of good & evil & put it in the garden?
Who said not to eat it & who determined & enforced the consequences?
If sin hadn't been created as a possibility, it would never occur to man to sin.
That is the difference between "creating" & being "the author of" sin.
An "author" is not the same as a "creator".
 
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Rick Otto

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According to the foreknowledge of God, absolutely... the OT pointed to it all in countless ways.

Peter denied Christ and the LORD knew that he would, that doesn't mean that the Lord made Peter deny Him...

I can tell my son that if he drinks and drives he will eventually get into an accident and possibly hurt somebody... so am I making him do it or do I know it will happen ?

I don't understand why it's difficult to differentiate the two... knowing something versus making it happen...
The question was rhetorical.
But Him knowing means He is allowing & not preventing it from happening.
 
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Rick Otto

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Why bother to create mankind knowing He'd have to come and die a most heinous death only to redeem some not all, but some of us?

Why not?
How would He then show His justice if everyone gets mercy?
How do you know a positive unless you can distinguish it from a negative?
 
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MrPolo

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No not at all, the talents are resources; spirit, instruction and so on. We are called on to know God's character and follow His instruction in a spirit in which he would, in doing this we bring Him glory and He blesses us with more of Him.

Ok, but why would resources exclude grace? Does not God provide grace along with other gifts? I also think your mention of getting "spirit" is tantamount to getting grace.
 
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MrPolo

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Which church? Are you saying that the RCC cult speaks for the whole Christian church?

Dorothea is Orthodox, not part of the evil "RCC cult" from hell you speak of. Please do not pick on her.
tsktsk.gif
 
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simonthezealot

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Ok, but why would resources exclude grace? Does not God provide grace along with other gifts? I also think your mention of getting "spirit" is tantamount to getting grace.
Yes, i actually woke up last night and was thinking about this, i was overthinking and talking past myself even.
 
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simonthezealot

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Why bother to create mankind knowing He'd have to come and die a most heinous death only to redeem some not all, but some of us?
This in a sense denies the atoning effectiveness in that He died for all and yet all were not saved...Now that is what i call limited atonement.
 
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Markea

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The question was rhetorical.
But Him knowing means He is allowing & not preventing it from happening.

I agree, although from the sounds of some posters, it appears that some think that He makes everything happen.
 
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98cwitr

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Why bother to create mankind knowing He'd have to come and die a most heinous death only to redeem some not all, but some of us?

Might be the same reasons that we decide to have children. Care to answer my question?
 
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Der Alte

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Since i am of the former i will posit what i feel defines predestination.
It would be great if someone of the latter philosophy laid out their definitions of free will...THEN let's have an all out throw down, with grace!

Predestination:
"The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass.
It is used particularly in theology to denote the pre-ordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery."

Scripturally these are a couple verses that are tough for a free-willer to overcome.
Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.”
and
Proverbs 16:9“In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps”

When I first heard the Calvinist proof text about a leopard not being able to change his spots, nor the Ethiopian his skin, I needed to see the context. I found that God was speaking to the king and queen of Israel not, necessarily all of mankind, Jer 13:18. And as I read further in this chapter I found another passage, which refutes several tenets of Calvinism.

Does God predestine some part of humanity to salvation and another part to damnation and there is nothing either group can do about it? Many arguments have been presented in support of this.

But, note this passage from Jeremiah. God said “I have caused to cleave” That word is הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi. It is in the perfect or completed sense. God’s will, expressly stated, for the whole house of Israel and Judah, not just an elect, predestined, chosen, few, was for all of Israel and all of Judah to cling to God as a belt clings to a man’s waist. It was done, finished, completed, in God’s sight, and, according to some arguments presented, nothing man can do will cause God’s will to not be done. But they, Israel and Judah, would not hear and obey, their will, vs. God’s will, So God destroyed them, vs. 14.

This passage very much speaks to the issue of predestination, God’s sovereign will, and man’s free will and agency. God stated very clearly what His will was, in terms that cannot be misunderstood. But, because the Israelites would not hear, and obey, God destroyed them, instead of them being unto God, “for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, vs. 10.”
Jer 13:1 Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.
2 So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.
3 And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,
4 Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.
5 So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.
6 And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.
7 Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.
8 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
9 Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.
10 This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.
11 For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave [הדבקתי/ha’dabaq’thi] unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.
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14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

Note, verse 14, God said He will NOT have pity, will NOT spare, and will NOT have mercy but destroy them.

Here is the definition of the word translated "I have caused." It is in the perfect state. Hebrew does not have tenses, actions are either imperfect or perfect, completed, or not completed.
H1692 דבק dabaq daw-bak'
A primitive root; properly to impinge, that is, cling or adhere; figuratively to catch by pursuit: - abide, fast, cleave (fast together), follow close (hard, after), be joined (together), keep (fast), overtake, pursue hard, stick, take.

H8816 Perfect

The Perfect expresses a completed action.

1) In reference to time, such an action may be:

1a) one just completed from the standpoint of the present
- "I have come" to tell you the news

1b) one completed in the more or less distant past in the beginning God "created"
- "I was (once) young" and "I have (now) grown old" but
- "I have not seen" a righteous man forsaken

1c) one already completed from the point of view of another past act
- God saw everything that "he had made"

1d) one completed from the point of view of another action yet future
- I will draw for thy camels also until "they have done" drinking

2) The perfect is often used where the present is employed in English.

2a) in the case of general truths or actions of frequent occurrence--truths or actions which have been often experienced or observed
- the grass "withereth"
- the sparrow "findeth" a house

2b) an action or attitude of the past may be continued into the present
"I stretch out" my hands to thee
"thou never forsakest" those who seek thee

2c) the perfect of intransitive verbs is used where English uses the present; The perfect in Hebrew in such a case emphasizes a condition which has come into "complete existence" and realization
- "I know" thou wilt be king
- "I hate" all workers of iniquity

2d) Sometimes in Hebrew, future events are conceived so vividly and so realistically that they are regarded as Having virtually taken place and are described by the perfect.

2d1) in promises, threats and language of contracts
- the field "give I" thee
- and if not, "I will take it"

2d2) prophetic language
- my people "is gone into captivity" (i.e. shall assuredly go).​
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