Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

[simonthezealot]

How can He 'bring about sin" but that sin He brings abou,t not
be 'from' (originating) from Him.
See what I mean?

Christs sacrifice was foreordained and predestined He knew Judas would do what he did. Did God bring that about? yes. Yet the sin came from the persecuters..
~~~
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
~~~
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
~~~
27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the peoplee of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.


God raised up a wicked nation (Assyria)for His purpose Isa 10

 

[sunlover1]

Christs sacrifice was foreordained and predestined He knew Judas would do what he did. Did God bring that about? yes. Yet the sin came from the persecuters..
~~~
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
~~~
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
~~~
27Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the peoplee of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. 28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.


God raised up a wicked nation (Assyria)for His purpose Isa 10

God foreknew.

 

[simonthezealot]

God foreknew.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
Proverbs 16:3333 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

 

[98cwitr]

Free Will is the the will of man;
predestination is God's will for the man.

 

[sunlover1]

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will
Proverbs 16:3333 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.

Right because He 'foreknew"
God "knew" from before the foundations of the earth
what you would think, do , choose...
He hardens a man's heart in one passage. in another place
it says (of the same man) that the man hardened his
own heart.

Of course .. you do realize that I've never argued Calvinism
in the past. and that's because it's never been a real bit issue
for me. It's, imo, just one of those things that doesnt effect
us much .. but today, I realized that it could very much have
effect on how one might choose to live his life and to what
degree of success he will have if he believes that God might
or might not hurt him or cast him aside or bless him..
(unless I am misunderstanding )

We do have free will. It would be SO easy if God just did
everything for us like babies lol. (well He often does with
me because I'm such a crybaby.. Isn't He so wonderful.
He will be what He will be) But it's not that way. We do
have free will and you do know already ALL of those
"Free will" passages. So I am not going to run out to find
those (can we say "lazy"?)

Free Will is the the will of man;
predestination is God's will for the man.

God's will is that man does not sin.
Did God "predestine" man to sin?

See, to me it makes no sense

 

[boswd]

Thrown Down? Is STZealot really Bobby Flay? Hmmm he's Catholic though

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

According to the Church: Calvinism As Heresy

Calvinism As Heresy « Glory to God for All Things

Which church? Are you saying that the RCC speaks for the whole Christian church?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Who put the tree of knowledge in the garden?

The tree wasn't sinful in itself because it was a part of God's creation, which He saw and declared it was very good. The problem was that Adam decided to rebel against God's command and take sides with Satan.

Eve was deceived, but Adam knew exactly what he was doing. Therefore, God is not the author of sin, and He did not predestinate sin. God's predestination involves His plan of salvation. Man chooses to sin. This is what free will does for sinners. Theywill automatically choose sin. This is because of the legacy that was left to them because of Adam's choice to sin. For sin to take place in the hearts of men, all God has to do is to stand back and let it happen. That is not predestination. It is God allowing people to be justly condemned for their own treason and rebellion against Him.

If a soldier in an army decides to commit treason and share secrets with the enemy, is that the General's fault or is the fault of the individual soldier who made the treasonous choice? Is it because the General planned that the soldier commit treason?

Suppose the General decided on a plan to restore the soldier to a state of loyalty so that the soldier was no longer condemned but restored to the ranks, then you could call that predestination because it was because of an action plan on the part of the General to save the soldier.

And suppose that there was absolutely no merit in the soldier to warrant being "saved", then it would be an act of pure grace on the part of the General to decide to save him.

Suppose that there were two soldiers condemned for the same crime, and the General decided to save just one of them. Then would the General be unfair to the one he decided to leave and giving an unfair advantage to the one he decides to save? And what if he gave an equal invitation to both to accept his offer of pardon and only one of them accepted it? Would the General be unfair on the one who ended up being condemned?

These are the issues around predestination. The tree was not the issue. It was the test of probation that God gave Adam, which he failed, which is the issue. It was Adam's own choice to fail.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Free will and predestination do not conflict. We have free will within our constraints. Our constraints are determined by the Will of God. Rats in a maze...rats in a maze.

Rats in a maze speaks more of fatalism. We have absolute free choice, and yet we are guided by the will of God. The harmony between the two is something that is out of the range of our natural minds to conceive, and it seems arrogance to me that created human beings would enquire into and question God over things that belong to His omnipotence and omniscience that are out of bonds to us.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Then why did He put the tree of knowledge in the garden while knowing we would eat from it?

We didn't eat from it. Adam and Eve did. And it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It is assumed that the one existing tree was destroyed when the Garden of Eden was destroyed in the Flood.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Alright this thread looks interesting and I want to join the conversation. I decided to join this thread of my own free will or did I?

You joined the thread completely of your own free will, and yet it was in the plan of God that you did.

it is quite spooky that joining this thread and making comments on it changes the course of things which would have been different if we had not have joined the thread.

Now, some believe that it was part of a divine blueprint plan that we joined this thread, and it was part of the plan that we used our free will in doing so. This would involve a combination of foreknowledge and foreordaining of events.

When we try to understand the mind of God, we can easily get befuddled because we are trying to work out infinite matters with a finite mind.

 

[Strong in Him]

Predestination:
"The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass.
It is used particularly in theology to denote the pre-ordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery."

Personally I can't believe in predestination because of what Scripture says, and what I know, about the character of God.

Scripture says that -
God made us in his image (Gen 1:26)
God put HIS breath in us (Gen 2:7)
God saw us even before we'd been born, knows all our ways, everything about us and how long we will live (Psalm 139)
God is our Father (Matt 6:9, 32) and that if our earthly fathers know how to give us good things, how much more will God (Matt 7:9-12.)
God is love (1 John 4:8). A good description of love is given in 1 Cor 13:4-8.

Quite simply, my own father would never have got my mother pregnant knowing that he wanted nothing to do with the child when it was born, having made up his mind to disown and disinherit it - not because he didn't want more children, but because he didn't want that particular one; so why would God?
Why would God give someone life/allow them to be born knowing that his plans for them were ultimately that they spend eternity without getting to know the One who made them? That's not love.

Yes, I know there are Scriptures which use the word "predestined"; that doen't necessarily mean that the authors had that scenario - ie God creating someone with the intention of sending them to hell, never giving them the opportunity to find him - in mind. They may have meant something else by the word, or maybe it meant something different when it was first used.

If God WANTED to send people to hell, he could have sent us all there, and never sent Jesus at all. Why would he - who is perfect, holy and above all, love - pick and choose which of his children to save? I.e, "I fancy saving that one, but not him/her?"

 

[Strong in Him]

Then why did He put the tree of knowledge in the garden while knowing we would eat from it?

Because he wanted us to have free will. He wanted us to CHOOSE to love and serve him; to know that we do not have a God who FORCES his children to worship him, even though he made them and they owe him everything. If we love, worship and serve God because we want to, because we have seen, or tried, the alternatives and believe he is the answer, do you not think that means more than having someone who automatically, daily says "I love you", because they were made that way and have no say in the matter.

God knew when he created Adam that if he gave him a choice, that he would sin; so he already had a rescue plan lined up. Peter calls Jesus the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." And even in the Garden, there is a prophecy that one day an ancestor of Adam's would crush the power of the serpent.

THAT is what I find soooo amazing; God created us and gave us free will, knowing that this decision would cause him enormous pain, not least because it would result in the death of his Son - but going ahead and doing it anyway, because a) he loved us and b) he knew that one day he would have children who were free to choose any religion or philosophy they wished, even none at all, but CHOOSE, of their own free will, to love and serve HIM. Yes, he could have made us all puppets, so that he was guaranteed a pain free, sin free universe, but he wanted US and our love so much, that he gave us the choice - the creator gave his creation the option of rejecting him.

 

[Strong in Him]

You joined the thread completely of your own free will, and yet it was in the plan of God that you did.

it is quite spooky that joining this thread and making comments on it changes the course of things which would have been different if we had not have joined the thread.

Now, some believe that it was part of a divine blueprint plan that we joined this thread, and it was part of the plan that we used our free will in doing so. This would involve a combination of foreknowledge and foreordaining of events.

When we try to understand the mind of God, we can easily get befuddled because we are trying to work out infinite matters with a finite mind.

Great post.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

?? That's not sin though...
Anymore than Abraham bringing Isaac to the alter was sin


LOL.. groan


This is not saying that "sin" comes from God
because if it did, then scripture is broken
so there is another explanation.
(I say look to Sacred Tradition for the mystical answer)

Saying that God ordains sin is not the same as making God responsible for the sin in such a way that He is culpable. Joseph is a good example.

What is his statement to his brother's wicked actions? "what you MEANT for evil, God MEANT for good"

If I allow my 2 yr old, who is learning to walk, to fall . .. but do so with the INTENT (or meaning) of laughing because the sight is funny . . . I am wicked. However, if I do the same act with the intent of seeking to help the child learn balance and pick him up right away, my action is wise.

What is the difference? Heart intention.

God cannot be maligned for ordaining the death of Christ, nor ordaining the selling of Jospeh into slavery . . . and even setting things in order SO THAT THESE EXACT THINGS DO HAPPEN . . . Jospeh's brothers wanted him gone because of sin and wickedness in their heart . .. God wanted him gone because he planned to deliver His people. Same with Jesus, the men who slayed Him did not do so with the intent of a propitiatory sacrifice that would save sinners . . . they just wanted a threat to their power vanquished . . .

do you see the difference?

Probably the clearest example is the story of the demon sent to be a lying spirit in the mouths of Ahab's prophets so that he would go to war . . . and die, cause God wanted him GONE. And God approves of the spirit decieving the prophets.

If we believe that Christ was chosen before the foundations of the world (eph 1) then we must also believe that Satan's involvement in the garden wasnt chance, or wasnt happenstance . . . Satan and Adam and Eve didnt "derail" God's original plan . . . God wasnt stumped in heaven going "Oh my, what to do now!?" . . . If Jesus is chosen before the foundations of the world (not to mention us as vessels of mercy) . . . then prior to the creation and fall, GOD ORDAINS THE DEATH OF CHRIST.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Right because He 'foreknew"
God "knew" from before the foundations of the earth
what you would think, do , choose...
He hardens a man's heart in one passage. in another place
it says (of the same man) that the man hardened his
own heart.

Of course .. you do realize that I've never argued Calvinism
in the past. and that's because it's never been a real bit issue
for me. It's, imo, just one of those things that doesnt effect
us much .. but today, I realized that it could very much have
effect on how one might choose to live his life and to what
degree of success he will have if he believes that God might
or might not hurt him or cast him aside or bless him..
(unless I am misunderstanding )

We do have free will. It would be SO easy if God just did
everything for us like babies lol. (well He often does with
me because I'm such a crybaby.. Isn't He so wonderful.
He will be what He will be) But it's not that way. We do
have free will and you do know already ALL of those
"Free will" passages. So I am not going to run out to find
those (can we say "lazy"?)


God's will is that man does not sin.
Did God "predestine" man to sin?

See, to me it makes no sense

We have will, to be sure . . . but it is not totally free. Never has been. We were created to be dependent . . . willfully, mind you . . . but the sheer creation of dependence means that we are not free . . . totally.

We can choose FREELY . . . but cannot will freely. Each and everyone of us is the sum of life experiences and likes and dislikes. I dont like spinach . . . because my body GAGS at it . . . I cannot WILL to like it . . . my will in this instance is bound by my body . . .

Scripturally and philosophically, we play God's game. We can choose from the choices that He places in front of us . . . but true freedom of will would include the option for us NOT TO CHOOSE. TO eternally remain neutral. We kno that this is not so . . . all must make a choice one day, either for or against Him . . . one cannot remain on the fence with no consequences. But I can concieve of such an act . . . realistically and attainably . . . but I cannot freely will to do such a thing for God will not allow it.

Freedom of choice is the semantical truth . . . not freedom of will.

 

[boswd]

You joined the thread completely of your own free will, and yet it was in the plan of God that you did.

it is quite spooky that joining this thread and making comments on it changes the course of things which would have been different if we had not have joined the thread.

Now, some believe that it was part of a divine blueprint plan that we joined this thread, and it was part of the plan that we used our free will in doing so. This would involve a combination of foreknowledge and foreordaining of events.

When we try to understand the mind of God, we can easily get befuddled because we are trying to work out infinite matters with a finite mind.

A man rapes and murders a person, by his own free will, but yet it was part of God Will to do it?

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

All things come from God, amen.
But God does also give man a will.
(He told eve not to eat... she ate.. His will was done?)
Then in that case He .. lied? impossible)

Hey simon. i answered your post a couple of pages back.

No...God told Adam before God Created Eve! People just assume that Adam told Eve, and from her response to the serpent i don't believe Adam told her the truth,in the "exact" way and order that God commanded Adam before He put Adam into that deep sleep! Plus God told Adam:Genesis 2:15-25 (KJV) Ge 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. 19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. 20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. 21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; 22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. 23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. 24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. 25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
So God basically declared His first Prophecy to Adam by telling him.."that in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
And God already "knew" that it was in Adam's heart to eat of the forbidden fruit, and God brought the event's to pass in Judgment of Adams apostascy & "enmity" in his heart towards God! Which became manifest, and eveident very shortly after God awoke Adam,and his new partner Eve! Then God behind the seens probably commanded satan just as Jesus did satan when he{satan} entered into Judas's heart,and Commanded satan to go and do "quickly" what must bedone, Jesus's betrayel because that the Scriptures "must" be fulfilled! John 13:27 (KJV) And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.John 13:18-19 (KJV) Jn 18 I speak not of you all: (***I know whom I have chosen***): but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me. 19Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.

God already planing and knowing from the beginning that He would would become a Man in Christ to die for the Sins of Adam/humanity that He already knew and planned to come too pass through Adam; and that God would eventually Forgive,Save,Justify,Redeem,Exalt,and Glorify, fallen humanity in Himself through Christ Jesus death and Resurrection, and Ascension back into heaven by the Almighty Power of His Holy Spirit,and is sat down at,on & in the Right Hand of His Father's, "our" Father's throne!!!
So according to the Absolute Necessity of what God had already Planed ,and Predestined for humanity through & in His-Humanity to come too pass, In order for man to become "like" God the Son,and become a son in and through Christ Jesus,through the Regeneration of His Holy Spirit! So Jesus Christ having created man in His Own Image! In order for man to truly "know" ,and "become" like God-God in Whom we exist,dwell,move about & have are very-being! Man would have to "(event)ually" go through the hard-knocks of learning about God his Creater in the "school" of the "knowlede of good, and evil"
Which is exactly what came to pass in the garden of Eden, and Adam's sin was that..he was not deceived by the serpent's temptation of Eve,and was right by her side the whole time she was being deceive by the serpent; and did nothing to interpose, and stop what was happening! Which revealed the true
nature of Adams heart! Such as follow's:Genesis 3:1-7 (KJV) Ge 1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.{Notice that what Eve tell Satan is different from what God told Adam before Eve came into existance; which suggests to be that Eve was not lying or trying to add or take away God from God's Word! She was just repeating to Satan, what she was told by Adam! and just below you will see that Adam was with Eve the entire time Eve was being tempted by the serpent, and said nothing!} 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.{ humanity who God Created in His Own Image, would have to go through God's School of this life! Which is the knowledge of good and evil! 6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her (***husband***{with}*** her;}{right there we can see that Adam was "with" Eve the whole time and said nothing} and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

LORD GOD in Yeshua-Messiah...through Him~unto~ You...by the Holy Spirit~We pray that You would reveal this very "deep" mystery! "The deep thing's of God" that You Holy Spirit, that You Seek us, and Learn us to "know" and "understand" as You daily Renew,and Transform our new spirit's that You have Created into and are Conforming us into Your Very Image of Christ Jesus as Your son's, and daughter's by the Continual Operation of Your Holy Spirit Living within out heart's, and mind's! All within, and throughout the Eternal-Living Everlasting Being and Mind of the GOD-HEAD which "dwelleth in Christ Jesus Bodily"...O Lord according to Your Word right here:1 Corinthians 2:9-16 (KJV) 1Co 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
In Christ Jesus Immanuel's name We pray this...Amen!!!


SeraphimsCherub,
GOD Bless

 

[Markea]

The woman was deceived, but the man was not deceived...

There's a difference between deception and disobedience.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with Predestination... which is to the ADOPTION OF CHILDREN by Jesus Christ... a future event... which all in Christ faithfully await.

 

[Strong in Him]

Seraphimscherub, it would be a lot easier to read your post if you did not write it in various sizes with all the bits that you want to emphasise bolded, underlined and written even larger.

I feel as though I'm being shouted at, and shouting loudly about something, does not make it right.