Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

[sunlover1]

God can and does bring about sin for His own purposes, nonetheless He is still Holy and blameless...
Was God to blame for what Josephs brothers did to Him? No. Did He foreordain it? yes, scripture is clear on that. He brings these things about and yet remains Holy and blameless...

I"'m sorry, where is Scripture clear that God brings about sin?
(Having a very hard time swallowing that idea Simon.

 

[sunlover1]

"Free" will is only a valid concept from a finite perspective.
Same thing with "accident" & "random chance".
It doesnt exist from God's perspective because He knows everything & being all powerful He can influence events & circumstances to produce or allow, good &/or allow evil.
He planned the crucifixion. Does that make Him guilty of conspiracy to murder?
Does that let the crucifiers off the hook, or render them obediant?
Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

IMO it just redefines "murder".
But God did not "cause" them to sin.
He does not tempt with sin.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

I"'m sorry, where is Scripture clear that God brings about sin?
(Having a very hard time swallowing that idea Simon.

That God ordained the death of Christ . . .

 

[Rick Otto]

Motive,
It's all about motive.


Otto motive. lol

 

[PassthePeace1]

11 Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not do the things that he hates. 12 Say not: He has caused me to err: for he has no need of wicked men. 13 The Lord hates all abomination of error, and they that fear him shall not love it. 14 God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel. 15 He added his commandments and precepts. 16 If you will keep the commandments and perform acceptable fidelity for ever, they shall preserve you. 17 He has set water and fire before you: stretch forth your hand to which you will. 18 Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him: 19 For the wisdom of God is great, and he is strong in power, seeing all men without ceasing. 20 The eyes of the Lord are towards them that fear him, and he knows al the work of man. 21 He has commanded no man to do wickedly, and he has given no man license to sin; 22 for he desires not a multitude of faithless and unprofitable children.

.

 

[simonthezealot]

I"'m sorry, where is Scripture clear that God brings about sin?
(Having a very hard time swallowing that idea Simon.

Lamentations 3:37(A) Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
38(B) Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

 

[simonthezealot]

That God ordained the death of Christ . . .

Yes Thanks bro.
Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[a] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

 

[laconicstudent]

.

Wow, that would sure seem to be a pretty big problem for Predestination. Can't get more clear than

"11 Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not do the things that he hates. 12 Say not: He has caused me to err: for he has no need of wickedmen."

and,

"Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:"

 

[simonthezealot]

(apocryphal quote)

Sorry Pam for the purposes of this debate lets keep with what ALL professing Christians consider inspired infallible innerrant scripture only.

 

[simonthezealot]

Wow, that would sure seem to be a pretty big problem for Predestination. Can't get more clear than

"11 Say not: It is through God, that she is not with me: for do not do the things that he hates. 12 Say not: He has caused me to err: for he has no need of wickedmen."

and,

"Before man is life and death, good and evil, that which he shall choose shall be given him:"

Again on this thread to prevent obfuscation and rabbit trailing please honor my above request.

 

[laconicstudent]

Sorry Pam for the purposes of this debate lets keep with what ALL professing Christians consider inspired infallible innerrant scripture only.

That would allow anyone to redefine their personal canon to eliminate any Scripture that disagrees with their position. I can see it now:

Poster 1: *quotes Scripture showing that shows X from 2 Timothy*

Poster 2: "Hey, we need to only use a canon we all agree on! 2 Timothy is actually apocrypha, so you can't use it."

Poster 1:

 

[laconicstudent]

Again on this thread to prevent obfuscation and rabbit trailing please honor my above request.

Next time you quote Scripture, from say, Romans, you will cease to use Romans as soon as I tell you I don't consider it inspired, right?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Here is how i responded earlier to Polo, does this help?

Let's take a look at this.
You will see God was at work in the beginning...
It does NOT say "God used what YOU did" we can't make scripture say something it doesn't.

Gen 45:4-8
4 And Joseph said to his brothers, “Please come near to me.” So they came near. Then he said: “I am Joseph your brother, whom you sold into Egypt. 5 But now, do not therefore be grieved or angry with yourselves because you sold me here; for God sent me before you to preserve life. 6 For these two years the famine has been in the land, and there are still five years in which there will be neither plowing nor harvesting. 7 And God sent me before you to preserve a posterity for you in the earth, and to save your lives by a great deliverance. 8 So now it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house, and a ruler throughout all the land of Egypt.

Gen 50:20
But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Didn't wicked men nail Christ to the cross?

Acts 2:23
Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken[a] by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;

Amen in that Jesus knew the scriptures must be fulfilled, He knew what was before him it was kept hid from them

1Cr 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Jesus sent of God, like Joseph they meant it for evil but God for good to save many alive

Which is interesting because it says this in respects to sin coming to his knowledge and a kid of goats here...

Lev 4:23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, **come to his knowledge**; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish

Gen 37:23 And **it came to pass**, when Joseph was come unto his brethren, that they **stript** Joseph out of his coat, his coat of many colours that was on him;

Gen 37:31 And they took Joseph's coat, and killed a kid of the goats, and dipped the coat in the blood

Gen 37:32 And they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said, This have we found: know now whether it be thy son's coat or no.

Gen 37:23 And he knew it, and said, It is my son's coat; an **evil beast** hath devoured him; Joseph is without doubt rent in pieces.

Whereas it says...

Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might **manifest them**, and that they might see that ***they themselves*** are beasts.

John 19:23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


John 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

Zech 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Psalm 102:96 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed

Prov 30:4 what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

Rev 19:13-14 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Prov 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

They meant it for evil but God for good, you can catch that in this as well, I find these things so edifying seeing him everywhere in scripture, God really rocks, He sure does

 

[simonthezealot]

That would allow anyone to redefine their personal canon to eliminate any Scripture that disagrees with their position. I can see it now:

Poster 1: *quotes Scripture showing that shows X from 2 Timothy*

Poster 2: "Hey, we need to only use a canon we all agree on! 2 Timothy is actually apocrypha, so you can't use it."

Poster 1:


Oh wait, that's what just happened.

Please don't sidetrack my thread. I asked to use scripture ALL christians accept is that to difficult?

 

[laconicstudent]

Please don't sidetrack my thread. I asked to use scripture ALL christians accept is that to difficult?

Yes, because it allows us to dismiss whatever we want by Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Yes, because it allows us to dismiss whatever we want by Moving the goalposts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Honestly bro . .. I think all understood that he meant the regular conception of the inspired canon . . . so I would beg you to consider to digress

 

[sunlover1]

That God ordained the death of Christ . . .

?? That's not sin though...
Anymore than Abraham bringing Isaac to the alter was sin

Motive,
It's all about motive.


Otto motive. lol

LOL.. groan

Lamentations 3:37(A) Who has spoken and it came to pass,
unless the Lord has commanded it?
38(B) Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that good and bad come?

This is not saying that "sin" comes from God
because if it did, then scripture is broken
so there is another explanation.
(I say look to Sacred Tradition for the mystical answer)

 

[laconicstudent]

Honestly bro . .. I think all understood that he meant the regular conception of the inspired canon . . . so I would beg you to consider to digress

Which would include the so-called "apocrypha" for the majority of Christians. Admittedly I'm being argumentative, but its a point worth making that to have a thread and refuse to entertain verses that aren't part of a minority canon is somewhat exasperating.

That said, I'll be done arguing this now, so we can move on.

 

[simonthezealot]

?? That's not sin though...
Anymore than Abraham bringing Isaac to the alter was sin


LOL.. groan


This is not saying that "sin" comes from God
because if it did, then scripture is broken
so there is another explanation.
(I say look to Sacred Tradition for the mystical answer)

God can and does bring about sin, i didn't say sin comes from God

 

[sunlover1]

God can and does bring about sin, i didn't say sin comes from God

How can He 'bring about sin" but that sin He brings abou,t not
be 'from' (originating) from Him.
See what I mean?