Predestination vs. Free Will ~THROW DOWN~

[MrPolo]

The Bible mentions "dead to sins."
I have yet to see someone use their "free-will" to choose to raise themselves from a dead state, to a living state under any circumstance other than our Creator of course.

Is someone here saying a person can "will" himself to eternal life without God?

 

[98cwitr]

Incorrect. What happens is that people apply their own logic to God. "If I knew before hand that the XYZ that I would create would do ABC, then I wouldn't create it to begin with."

God doesn't opperate that way. God did not intend for sin to happen. God doesn't intend for anything wrong to happen. He does however work within bad situations to bring forth good, so that His name would be glorified.

Then why did He put the tree of knowledge in the garden while knowing we would eat from it?

 

[razeontherock]

It is used particularly in theology to denote the pre-ordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery."

So how do you harmonize a Loving G-d planning for a majority of the species to suffer in hell for all eternity?

 

[simonthezealot]

So how do you harmonize a Loving G-d planning for a majority of the species to suffer in hell for all eternity?

He does not author those to sin, read the examples shown above.
He is both a loving and a just God.

 

[98cwitr]

So how do you harmonize a Loving G-d planning for a majority of the species to suffer in hell for all eternity?

God loves all the world, but maybe the love stops and the wrath starts when we have no faith. This is based on the conditional statement in John 3:16 I believe.

 

[simonthezealot]

Is someone here saying a person can "will" himself to eternal life without God?

Free-will says you choose God.
Pre-destination follows God's sovereignty

 

[MrPolo]

Free-will says you choose God.
Pre-destination follows God's sovereignty

God giving us the gift of free will wouldn't violate His sovereignty. The Calvinistic idea of sovereignty, if I may speak subjectively, is an affront to God's generosity.

You know the parable of the talents, right? The 3 servants are given various measures of gifts by the master. 2 of them make good use of the gift. The 3rd man does nothing with the gift. The 3rd man is condemned. I think the gifts (labelled "talents/money" in this parable) are grace. What do you think?

 

[Yab Yum]

Free-will says you choose God.
Pre-destination follows God's sovereignty

Ah, simplicity.

 

[simonthezealot]

You know the parable of the talents, right? The 3 servants are given various measures of gifts by the master. 2 of them make good use of the gift. The 3rd man does nothing with the gift. The 3rd man is condemned. I think the gifts (labelled "talents/money" in this parable) are grace. What do you think?

No not at all, the talents are resources; spirit, instruction and so on. We are called on to know God's character and follow His instruction in a spirit in which he would, in doing this we bring Him glory and He blesses us with more of Him.

 

[razeontherock]

Sounds like Grace to me.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Sounds like Grace to me.

Me to Raze, these are compareble

Mat 24:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

Mat 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Likewise here...

1Peter 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.


However...

Mat 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Which agrees with this...

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Mat 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Whereas again...

1Cr 4:2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.

"Well done" he did well and we are told...

Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Then ofcourse you have the wicked and slothful servant, but just as in the parable of the (already) FORGIVEN servant becoming the wicked servant because he showed not the mercy his lord showed to him and was punished for this but you can sorta see in both how something was received first and then how each one gives an account in both cases for what they received and how they put that to work so to speak.

 

[Christos Anesti]

I also think "predestination VS free will" is a false choice. It's not one or the other. It's both.

 

[sunlover1]

Since i am of the former i will posit what i feel defines predestination.
It would be great if someone of the latter philosophy laid out their definitions of free will...THEN let's have an all out throw down, with grace!

Predestination:
"The act of decreeing or foreordaining events; the decree of God by which he hath, from eternity, unchangeably appointed or determined whatever comes to pass.
It is used particularly in theology to denote the pre-ordination of men to everlasting happiness or misery."

Scripturally these are a couple verses that are tough for a free-willer to overcome.
Psalm 24:1 “The earth is the LORD's, and everything in it, the world, and all who live in it.”
and
Proverbs 16:9“In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps”

Hey there! I am a late comer and have read some of the first page
so forgive me if i say something that's been answered.. Trying to
finish getting dinner on, schedule my life (well.. why bother LOL)
and talk to you all at the same time.
I have no problem with the passages you post.
In fact, I make too few decisions 'because' of my strong
belief that God determines my steps.

The two concepts are not opposed. And a strict interpretation of God as puppet master makes him the author of sin.

That's how I feel too (being the self pope that i be )

 

[SoundCard]

*looks around, throws kerosene on the fire*

Jeremiah 7:31
31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Not really having much to add here, I'm just wondering what people think that particular part means.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Predestination vs Free will is a pair of principles stand side by side, seemingly irreconcilable, yet both undeniable. We are not sinners because we choose to sin; we choose to sin because we are sinners. God is a sovereign God and we have to understand that somehow, mysteriously, within the framework of predestination and within the framework of His sovereignty and the framework of election, which I believe in, there is a place for our freewill which is whether we respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. In Christ, whom He also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of our salvation. And so He decided to give the chosen ones to Christ to be saved, and to call and draw us effectively through His Word and Spirit.

[FONT=&quot]Election took place in eternity which means God did not choose us in time, but before time began, in eternity. He chose us before the foundation of the world, from the beginning, when nothing existed except God Himself. [/FONT]In the Old Testament, God calls Israel "mine elect" and chose Israel. In the New Testament, God calls Church "mine elect" and chose those whoever responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The right of determination must always remain with God. The idea of election goes back to Abraham (Gen. 12:1-3). God chose to make a nation of that patriarch’s descendants. He chose Israel to be his people. He worked his purposes out through that one nation and in due course sent his Messiah as a Jew. After that, God continued to elect, us in accordance with His purpose (Rom. 9:11), grace (Rom. 11:5), love (1 Thes. 1:4), and foreknowledge (1 Pet. 1:2). We “elect” can rely on God’s concern for us (Luke 18:7) and on our salvation (Rom. 8:33). We are to live lives befitting our status (Col. 3:12-14). Mystery is inherent in the concept of election, because we also know that God desires the salvation of all (1 Tim. 2:4). The Bible declares that salvation is not accomplished, determined by, or dependent upon the will of man, but by the will of God (John 1:12-13; Rom. 9:16).

 

[98cwitr]

*looks around, throws kerosene on the fire*

Jeremiah 7:31
31 They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire—something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.

Not really having much to add here, I'm just wondering what people think that particular part means.

nor did it even enter God's mind to do such a thing. God is just saying that these people have gone against His Word and He never even THOUGHT about commanding such a thing.

 

[SoundCard]

nor did it even enter God's mind to do such a thing. God is just saying that these people have gone against His Word and He never even THOUGHT about commanding such a thing.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Chris81]

Alright this thread looks interesting and I want to join the conversation. I decided to join this thread of my own free will or did I?

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

The two concepts are not opposed. And a strict interpretation of God as puppet master makes him the author of sin.

Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) Isa 5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Romans 13:1 (KJV) Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Ooooh, looks like ol-free-willie is going to choke himself to death when he read's those:
Word's LORD!i!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Alright this thread looks interesting and I want to join the conversation. I decided to join this thread of my own free will or did I?

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Who knows?