bling

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I was addressing the issue of freewill. I think you are addressing the issue of pure charity.

Is there a connection?

Regarding charity, pure charity is not pride, but believing that pure charity earns God's acceptance is indeed pride. Humility is believing that the pure charity of Jesus which He did on the cross, earns God's acceptance for us, is indeed humility.

Are you saying with "pure charity is not pride" = "You cannot be prideful while humbly accepting pure charity"?

The free will choice is not between "choosing salvation or refusing salvation", the free will choice is between humbly accept or rejecting God's charity which will include salvation if you know that or not. People refuse pure sacrificial charity, most of the time out of pride (no one normally likes taking pure charity).
 
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Si_monfaith

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Are you saying with "pure charity is not pride" = "You cannot be prideful while humbly accepting pure charity"?

The free will choice is not between "choosing salvation or refusing salvation", the free will choice is between humbly accept or rejecting God's charity which will include salvation if you know that or not. People refuse pure sacrificial charity, most of the time out of pride (no one normally likes taking pure charity).

Human will is not free. Either it is ruled by sin or grace (Romans 5:21)
 
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bling

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1 Corinthians 12:3
I am not saying a nonbelieving sinner can turn and call Jesus Lord. When the nonbelieving sinner turns to Jesus and God, they are his enemies at that moment of surrendering (just like in a war today). The surrendering just allows God to shower them with gifts.
 
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Si_monfaith

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I am not saying a nonbelieving sinner can turn and call Jesus Lord. When the nonbelieving sinner turns to Jesus and God, they are his enemies at that moment of surrendering (just like in a war today). The surrendering just allows God to shower them with gifts.

Can the nonbelieving sinner believe in Jesus without the Holy Spirit as per 1 Corinthians 12:3?
 
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bling

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Can the nonbelieving sinner believe in Jesus without the Holy Spirit as per 1 Corinthians 12:3?
"believe" (have Faith in) is more than what the demons were doing when they "believed" in the Christ. I am not saying the nonbeliever can call Jesus Lord since he is not their lord at that point, but they can "trust" Jesus enough to be willing to accept His help.
 
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Si_monfaith

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"believe" (have Faith in) is more than what the demons were doing when they "believed" in the Christ. I am not saying the nonbeliever can call Jesus Lord since he is not their lord at that point, but they can "trust" Jesus enough to be willing to accept His help.

I am not saying the nonbeliever can call Jesus Lord since he is not their lord at that point, but they can "trust" Jesus enough to be willing to accept His help.

If they CAN trust Jesus enough to be willing to accept His help, why aren't all humans willing to accept His help?
 
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sdowney717

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You are the slave of whom you obey, you made the choice to obey satan so it is up to you quit and turn to God for help (charity).

Not true, it is not within our ability, only Christ can set you free. You're displaying Pelagianism there, simply be good and do good type thing. And turning to Christ to save you is a good thing to do, something Paul rejoices in that God granted and enabled him to come to Christ.

Romans 7 teaches that even if the will exists to do good and not sin, yet still you sin.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
 
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bling

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If they CAN trust Jesus enough to be willing to accept His help, why aren't all humans willing to accept His help?
I keep saying: "Accepting God's help is the same as humbly accepting God's charity" and people do not like to accept pure sacrificial charity.
 
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bling

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Not true, it is not within our ability, only Christ can set you free. You're displaying Pelagianism there, simply be good and do good type thing. And turning to Christ to save you is a good thing to do, something Paul rejoices in that God granted and enabled him to come to Christ.

Romans 7 teaches that even if the will exists to do good and not sin, yet still you sin.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

You skipped this:

7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of coveting. For apart from the law, sin was dead.


OK, when in Saul/Paul’s life did he first come to the understanding of coveting since that is when sin took over?

This passage in Ro. 7 seems to be written in historic present tense like Mark did with most of his Gospel.

Paul also very plainly says while he is in the state of nothing good dwells: “For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.”, so is this “delight” evil or good?

Can a nonbelieving sinner do something “good” like delighting in the law of God?

The surrender is not setting himself “free”, but by surrendering to his enemy (God), God can set him free.
 
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Si_monfaith

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I keep saying: "Accepting God's help is the same as humbly accepting God's charity" and people do not like to accept pure sacrificial charity.

Why they do not like?

John 6:65: And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

They do not like because it was not granted unto them by the Father to like.
 
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bling

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Why they do not like?

John 6:65: And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

They do not like because it was not granted unto them by the Father to like.
The invitation went out to everyone but some refused to go to the banquet, but everyone at the banquet was invited.
Like I said people will do or believe almost anything to avoid having to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure charity. You idea has the individual "made by God" to only take the charity offered without any "choice" on their part so they did not of their own free will humbly accept pure charity (this is one way we use to get around the idea of accepting charity [you had no choice]).
 
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Si_monfaith

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The invitation went out to everyone but some refused to go to the banquet, but everyone at the banquet was invited.
Like I said people will do or believe almost anything to avoid having to humble themselves to the point of accepting pure charity. You idea has the individual "made by God" to only take the charity offered without any "choice" on their part so they did not of their own free will humbly accept pure charity (this is one way we use to get around the idea of accepting charity [you had no choice]).

A will is free only if the person has the knowledge and assurance required to make a choice.

In the case of humans, knowledge and assurance are not intrinsic. So the will can't be free.
 
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bling

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A will is free only if the person has the knowledge and assurance required to make a choice.

In the case of humans, knowledge and assurance are not intrinsic. So the will can't be free.
We are not talking about have a "will" to do anything you would like, but having a very limited free will to make the one choice to accept or reject God's charity which man can have the knowledge to do. What "assurance are you talking about?
 
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Marvin Knox

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so I am sure this has been hashed and again about a million times. But it is fun to talk about. The issue is the pride men have in refusing to acknowledge they may be wrong. So let's discuss in humility.

PREDESTINATION
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5, 11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

FREE WILL
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."” ‭‭Joshua‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭ESV

So I have laid out a couple scriptures purporting to support each view. What do you think?
Everything which happens in God's creation was predestined to happen - bar none.

Those particular verses in Romans and Ephesians just happen to name two things out of an innumerable company of things which are predestined by God to happen. They are stressed for us out of multiplied trillions of events simply because they are so important for us to know about because they concern salvation.

There is absolutely no conflict what so ever between predestination and free will.
 
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Si_monfaith

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We are not talking about have a "will" to do anything you would like, but having a very limited free will to make the one choice to accept or reject God's charity which man can have the knowledge to do. What "assurance are you talking about?

"having a very limited free will to make the one choice to accept or reject God's charity which man can have the knowledge to do".

God alone is the source of all true knowledge (that Jesus has already justified the elect on the cross). Man cannot have any true knowledge apart from God the source.

Assurance is the certainty that Jesus has already justified the elect on the cross. The acceptance of the elect does not produce justification. His work on the cross produces justification for the elect. The God given assurance produces acceptance.

Some in this thread are not certain that the elect will certainly accept the above knowledge and assurance of truth. That is why they consider the acceptance of the above truth as a great hurdle for man to do rather than a gift from God.
 
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Si_monfaith

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God can never be seen as the author of sin or evil regardless of the truth that all human choices originate in Him. Why?

If man hadn't chosen the knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden, man could not know that whatever God did was evil or sin.

It was not God's will for man to possess the knowledge of good and evil. Only God can help you to not think in terms of the knowledge of good & evil.
 
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roman2819

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It is quite difficult to comprehend why many of us like to think about individual predestination when the apostles Paul and Peter were really saying that God had predestined to offer redemption to the Gentiles. When Paul wrote that God had chosen us before the foundation of the earth, he was really emphasizing that way, way back, God had always planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. And we should know that Paul was saying this because many Jewish Christians were upset that Gentiles were allowed to be part of the gospel, which was a drastic departure from the past.

About the words "chosen people" or "Chosen by God": We tend to interpret factually today, thinking that God handpick or choose who should be saved. However, during biblical times [2000 or more years ago), people were more submissive to God -- much much more than people today (it must be noted). Back then, they don't say that they chose to believe in Him; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose to believe in God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate. Today we don't speak that way anymore, and to us now, such words sound like God literally choose who to save. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.

Regarding predestination: Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. In biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was intended for Jews only. Then Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized God wanted them to preach the gospel to the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in their God. As the old order changed, the Jews were displeased, and they demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practicing circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed Peter for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously excluded from Christ, are now included. Notice how Paul used different pronouns "we" [v 12] and "you" [v 13] as he refer to the Jews and Gentiles respectively.

When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.
 
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roman2819

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so I am sure this has been hashed and again about a million times. But it is fun to talk about. The issue is the pride men have in refusing to acknowledge they may be wrong. So let's discuss in humility.

PREDESTINATION
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:29-30‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,” Ephesians‬ ‭1:4-5, 11‬ ‭ESV‬‬

FREE WILL
“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

“And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord."” ‭‭Joshua‬ ‭24:15‬ ‭ESV

So I have laid out a couple scriptures purporting to support each view. What do you think?

Regarding Ephesians 1: "God chose us before the foundation of the earth".
About the words "chosen" or "chosen by God": We tend to interpret factually today, thinking that God handpick or choose who should be saved. However, during biblical times [2000 or more years ago), people were more submissive to God -- much, much more than people today. Back then, they don't say that they chose to believe in Him; instead they said that God chose them. It is a humble way of speaking. To say that they chose to believe in God would have sounded arrogant or inappropriate to them. Today we don't speak that way anymore, and to us, such words sound like God literally choose who to save. But back then, it was really a humble way to say that it was a privilege to be part of God's people or kingdom.

Regarding predestination: Many Christians have been so awed by the word predestination that we forgot about context. Predestination means pre-planned. In biblical context, it means that God has pre-planned to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Paul or Peter were NOT talking about predestination of individuals.

For 2000 years before the apostles' times, Yahweh was God to the Jews only, while other pagan nations worship many pluralistic gods. Even after Jesus' resurrection, the apostles initially thought that redemption was intended for Jews only. Then Peter received a vision about eating unclean food, and they realized God wanted them to preach the gospel to the Gentiles too. Now, this was shocking to the Jews because it went against their tradition which was so rooted in the God of Abraham and Jacob, where Gentiles had no part in their God. As the old order changed, the Jews were displeased, and they demanded that Gentiles followed Jewish customs (many Christian Jews were still practicing circumcision and Sabbath at that time). Amid the hostility, even Peter distanced himself from the Gentiles, and Paul opposed Peter for that. To assure the Gentiles, Paul explained in Ephesians (and Letter of Romans) that God had always predestined (pre-planned) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Let me explain the following verses while quoting them:

Ephesians 1:12, 13
[12]"In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. ===> "we, who were the first to hope in Christ" refers to the Jews who had believed in God for 2000 years
[13] And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation ==> The Gentiles, who were previously excluded from Christ, are now included. Notice how Paul used different pronouns "we" [v 12] and "you" [v 13] as he refer to the Jews and Gentiles respectively.

When seen in context, the Bible was not talking about predestination of individuals. Instead, predestination means God has always planned (or pre-planned or predestined or destined) to offer redemption to the Gentiles. Different translations use different words but when we know context, we will not drill into the words technically.
 
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