Predestination in Calvinist Views breaks free will

[dóxatotheó]

May I ask if we are predestined for unconditional grace, how arent God also creating our realities(acts), if he causes some realities to happen without human consent(talking about predestined to be elected). God isn't a freethinker so I know for sure that he is causing every act we do, because if hes causing us to accept the grace he must also cause us or aka lead us to accept it Proverbs 16. Now this is what I been thinking on now dont brink of sovereignty because that doesn't really answer the question, real answers please.

 

[BobRyan]

God knows every detail about the future but does not cause it. God did not cause Judas to betray Christ and God does not cause people to take His name in vain.

Imagine a robot with no power and no programming. So God just causes it to do whatever and sometimes God causes the robot to take His name in vain or to torment a kitten. The "responsible" party in such a scenario is God.

Some forms of Calvinism do not allow sentient beings to have free will. More specifically - do not allow God to create sentient beings that have any level of free will.

There are lost people that are by habit very ugly and mean. But there are a great many lost people that are cultured, polite, sophisticated, politically correct etc. They would not torment a kitten for even one second. Many of them would not consider it right or polite to take God's name in vain.

 

[dóxatotheó]

God knows every detail about the future but does not cause it. God did not cause Judas to betray Christ and God does not cause people to take His name in vain.

I agree this position I hold are specifically for people who loves the 5 points.

Imagine a robot with no power and no programming. So God just causes it to do whatever and sometimes God causes the robot to take His name in vain or to torment a kitten. The "responsible" party in such a scenario is God.

This was I was trying to avoid the idea that God can do specific acts but different from others if he leads us to salvation and elects us to salvation and its unconditional than by definition hes the causer of the sins before the conversion and hes the causer of the acts that lead them to the conversion and hes the causer for the conversion.

Some forms of Calvinism do not allow sentient beings to have free will. More specifically - do not allow God to create sentient beings that have any level of free will.

Hyper-Calvinism ik.

There are lost people that are by habit very ugly and mean. But there are a great many lost people that are cultured, polite, sophisticated, politically correct etc. They would not torment a kitten for even one second.

I not sure I follow wym.

 

[Clare73]

May I ask if we are predestined for unconditional grace, how arent God also creating our realities(acts), if he causes some realities to happen without human consent(talking about predestined to be elected). God isn't a freethinker so I know for sure that he is causing every act we do, because if hes causing us to accept the grace he must also cause us or aka lead us to accept it Proverbs 16. Now this is what I been thinking on now dont brink of sovereignty because that doesn't really answer the question, real answers please.

Free will is not a Biblical concept it is a philosophical concept (Aristotle, Cicero).
In philosophy, it means the power to voluntarily do what one prefers, likes without external force or constraint.

However, what we prefer and like is determined by our disposition: our nature which inclines us to some things and against others, as the dog is inclined to meat and against vinegar.

Since the disposition determines our preferences and likes, it actually governs the will which chooses what one prefers without external force or constraint.

God works in the disposition of man giving him to prefer God's will and, because he prefers it, he freely, voluntarily and willingly, without any external force or constraint, chooses it. . .the meaning of free will.

God does not violate man's free will, he uses it to bring them to himself.

 

[dóxatotheó]

Free will is not a Biblical concept it is a philosophical concept (Aristotle, Cicero).

This alone breaks your whole theology.

However, what we prefer and like is determined by our disposition: our nature which inclines us to some things and against others, as the dog is inclined to meat and against vinegar.

We act according to our will not nature.

Since the disposition determines our preferences and likes, it actually governs the will which chooses what one prefers without external force or constraint.

Cant make a conclusion with no evidence to back it up you didn't critique my argument just saying yours. If God causes those realities which by your definition our Disposition than hes causing the earlier dispositions leading to that point.

God works in the disposition of man giving him to prefer God's will and, because he prefers it, he freely, voluntarily and willingly, without any external force or constraint, chooses it. . .the meaning of free will.

So he works in the human dispositions which seems to be an external act that is without change or distance. Is our disposition naturally dead or does it become dead talking about sin when I say dead, also God messing with free will isn't biblical at all.

God does not violate man's free will, he uses it to bring them to himself.

Another fallacious conclusion you didn't critique my position all you did was say yours.

 

[Clare73]

This alone breaks your whole theology.

Scripture does not teach "free will."

"He who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free.

We act according to our will not nature.

So you don't act according to human nature? So according to whose nature do you act. . .the monkey or the giraffe?

Cant make a conclusion with no evidence to back it up you didn't critique my argument just saying yours.

Didn't realize you had an argument. . .is English your second language?

Thanks. . .it's been great.

If God causes those realities which by your definition our Disposition than hes causing the earlier dispositions leading to that point.
So he works in the human dispositions which seems to be an external act that is without change or distance. Is our disposition naturally dead or does it become dead talking about sin when I say dead, also God messing with free will isn't biblical at all.
Another fallacious conclusion you didn't critique my position all you did was say yours.

 

[dóxatotheó]

Scripture does not teach "free will."

"He who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free.

Thats not literal in anyway.

So you don't act according to human nature? So according to whose nature do you act. . .the monkey or the giraffe?

If we dont have a human will than monophysitism is true just letting yk. We do have a human nature which is how we sin but it isn't how we act.

Didn't realize you had an argument. . .is English your second language?

The OP was targeting the Calvinist view on election. Secondly, I am a teenager so Of course my sentence structures wouldn't be perfect. I literally still in High School

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
There are lost people that are by habit very ugly and mean. But there are a great many lost people that are cultured, polite, sophisticated, politically correct etc. They would not torment a kitten for even one second.

I not sure I follow wym.

My point is that just because a person is lost - does not mean they will be max-evil a mass murderer etc.They could be lost and still have a lot of "polite" skills. Even be church members.

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture does not teach "free will."

"He who sins is a slave to sin." (John 8:34). Slaves aren't free.
.

True - there is slavery to sin - but there is also the supernatural drawing of "ALL" by God that enables choice.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not - but to as many as received Him - to them he gave the right to be called the sons of God" John 1:11-12

God's drawing enables the free will to choose the gospel.

"I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32
"God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Pet 3

"come unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened - I will give you rest" Matt 11:28
"I stand at the door and knock - if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

"we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5:20

Whosoever will may come
"17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

 

[TedT]

May I ask if we are predestined for unconditional grace, how arent God also creating our realities(acts), if he causes some realities to happen without human consent(talking about predestined to be elected). God isn't a freethinker so I know for sure that he is causing every act we do, because if hes causing us to accept the grace he must also cause us or aka lead us to accept it Proverbs 16. Now this is what I been thinking on now dont brink of sovereignty because that doesn't really answer the question, real answers please.

IF we chose our own FATE by our free will then predestination of our LIVES is the fulfillment of our free will, not a negation of it.

 

[dóxatotheó]

IF we chose our own FATE by our free will then predestination of our LIVES is the fulfillment of our free will, not a negation of it.

This is about Calvinist ideology of Eternal Selection, not Arminianism...

True - there is slavery to sin - but there is also the supernatural drawing of "ALL" by God that enables choice.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not - but to as many as received Him - to them he gave the right to be called the sons of God" John 1:11-12

God's drawing enables the free will to choose the gospel.

"I will draw ALL mankind unto Me" John 12:32
"God is not WILLING that any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2 Pet 3

"come unto Me ALL who are weary and heavy ladened - I will give you rest" Matt 11:28
"I stand at the door and knock - if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3

"we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God" 2 Cor 5:20

Whosoever will may come
"17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." Rev 22:17

Nice put through of it Bob

 

[Clare73]

Thats not literal in anyway.

If we dont have a human will than monophysitism is true just letting yk. We do have a human nature which is how we sin but it isn't how we act.
The OP was targeting the Calvinist view on election. Secondly, I am a teenager so Of course my sentence structures wouldn't be perfect. I literally still in High School

Firstly, you don't get a pass on grammar because you are in high school, you should have that mastered by now.

Secondly, you shouldn't be in a debate if you don't know the meaning of the terms of the argument (free will, nature, disposition, preferences, governs, etc.).

And thirdly, predestination doesn't break "free will" any more than God's absolute sovereignty over man breaks "free will."

1) sovereignty of God stated:
Daniel 4:35, Acts 2:23, 4:28, 13:48; Luke 22:22; Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:14-29, Romans 11:25-44; Ephesians 1:4-12; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:12.

2) sovereignty of God demonstrated:
God exercises his sovereignty over men, not by compelling their acts or wills contrary to their preferences and likes (their disposition), but by operating through their dispositions, giving them to prefer his will;e.g.
Genesis 20:6; Exodus 3:21; Deuteronomy 2:25, 30; Joshua 11:20; 1 Samuel 10:9; Ezra 1:1, 5, 7:27; Nehemiah 2:12, 7:5; Proverbs 21:1; Psalms 105:25, 106:46; Ezekiel 36:27; Daniel 1:9;
2 Corinthians 8:16; Philippians 2:13; Revelation 17:17,
to which their wills freely and willingly respond. . .no violation of "free will."

Man still acts voluntarily according to his wishes and desires (in his disposition), he still voluntarily chooses to do what he prefers (in his disposition) in God's exercise of his absolute sovereignty over him.