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Predestination, Free Will and Praying

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Christsoldier, Jan 16, 2002.

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  1. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    I have had people ask me, "If God has predestined everything according to His plan, then what is the point in praying?"

    Thoughts?
     
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  2. VeraciousMaven

    VeraciousMaven Jesus Saves!

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    Just because God knows everything does not mean that he is FORCING everything to happen. Prayer will do change -- God's knowledge that it will be changed does not stop it from being changed.


    I'm too confusing. I don't even understand myself! :D

    Maybe someone else can translate what I said. God bless!
     
  3. rkbo

    rkbo Member

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    Veraicious you cracked me up and made me worry at the same time. The worry is that I understood you perfectly and I agree. I will not try to say it better. I would just confuse myself.
     
  4. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    I am reminded of the parable of the persistent widow and the judge. After thinking about this, that story came to mind.
     
  5. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    bump, bump, bump :D
     
  6. man in the box

    man in the box New Member

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    One reason is because God said to do so. Man is still responsible even though God knows the end from the beginning. We pray because God wants us to pray. Prayer doesn't change God but changes us. The sovereignity of God and the responsibility of man are both taught in scripture. They make no logically sense to our finite minds only to God.
    Here is my take on predestination and free will.
    The Bible teaches God's election. The Bible teaches whosoever will. 2 Peter 3.9 states that God is not willing that any perish(many do though). I believe all that and that God loves my children more than I do. So I put all that together; unfortunately God does not fit nicely into a box. I am a man in the box and I can't think outside the box but God is outside and infinite.
    That is the problem with election. We do not have infinite minds so somethings we will probably never reconcile. This however doesn't mean we shouldn't try but we should just understand we may never know.
    God asks us to believe Him and put are total faith and trust in Him even though we don't understand. A child like faith if you will.
    :)
    Take care.
     
  7. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    Amen. By the way, I love your screen name. So many times I get fed up with people putting God in a box. :(

    We don't have all the answers because we don't have God's perspective.

    I'm feeling a little blue today. I hate housework! :D I'm also still in a little bit of a funk because of what happened in the forum last night. We had a troll problem big time. If you missed it, be very glad you did.
     
  8. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    Without the concepts of Predestination and the Elect, Eternal Assurance goes out the window....
     
  9. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Forget about predestination or understand it as someone noted scripture above: it's not God's will that anyone should perish. People who beleive that God "predestined, chose, or elected" only SOME of us to be saved, end up saying this, which I consider blasphemy: " Jesus did not die for all man's sins, he only died for some people's sins." The Bible says He died for ALL mankind!! The fact that He had foreknowledge of everything means only that. The word "predestinate" & all it's forms (predestinated) occur in the Bible only 4 times. The word giant appears 21 times. In all 4 cases the word predestinate/d is taken from the Greek word "proorizo" which is also defined as "ordain", and "determine before". So He had foreknowledge & determined before all that would happen. That does not show "action", or "intent", on God's part. The word "chosen" is used 6 times in reference to Israel. Moses, King Saul, David, Jesus, are all "chosen". Elect- Is.42:1-Christ is God's elect one. Isa.65:9,15,22=The redeemed Israelites of the future will be God's elect. Twenty times in the NT, those who recieved Christ as Saviour are called the "elect". I have read the verses that opposing views cling to, but when i read above & below those Scriptures it does not mean that Jesus only died for some of us. "forget about it".
     
  10. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    Debbie, do you believe in "eternal assurance", or rather, under its true name, perseverance of the saints? In other words, do you believe that a truly regenerate Christian cannot lose her salvation? If you believe in "eternal assurance", then you MUST believe in predestination. The concept of "eternal assurance" was founded on, and still is, dependent on predestination from Reformed thought; it is a Calvinistic concept. I suggest that you research this concept thoroughly, and you will find that these two ideas are corequisite.

    I recommend that you read and study thoroughly the following site:
    TULIP - Basis of Reformed thought

    God bless you on your Biblical studies. :)
     
  11. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    I do NOT believe "once saved always saved". The Bible shows that is not true. Solomon is a perfect example & there is much more to contradict the theory that "once saved always saved " is not Biblical. This thread is about predestination & prayer for the "chosen" or "unchosen". The word "giant" in the Bible is used to describe human beings. It is used 21 times. "Predestinate" & all it's forms are used 4 times. In the new testament "chosen" refers to people of all nations who have Jesus as their saviour. Granted, the Jews are God's chosen people, but not all of them are going to heaven. I know what reformers & calvinists believe & I have read some of their literature. But the bottom line is this... if you misinterpret scripture to mean that before God created man, that He INTENTIONALLY created some of us to go to hell for satan, then you are saying that Jesus INTENTIONALLY did not die for those who God created to go to hell, that Jeus only died for the chosen or elected. That is not true, I don't care what John Calvin said, the Bible is my final authority, not John Calvin. I consider the statement, "Jesus only died for some of our sins" to be blasphemy, a personal attack at Jesus for His work on the cross. God is a sovereign God, and is not subject to your rules. Saying that God is a sovereign God who chose certain ones only, is a contradictory statement. Pick one side or the other. The word predestinate can mean "determine beforehand"= foreknowledge.
     
  12. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    I do NOT believe "once saved always saved".

    "Once saved always saved" is a perversion of the original meaning of perseverance of the saints, which stands for the eternal dedication that a truly born again person commits to the Lord Jesus Christ. It does NOT mean that you have "fire insurance" and can do anything that you wish without going to Hell. It means that a truly regenerate Christian will strive to be as Christ-like as possible. Hebrews tells us that we are not to continue in habitual sin once we have the knowledge of the truth.

    The word "giant" in the Bible is used to describe human beings. It is used 21 times. "Predestinate" & all it's forms are used 4 times.

    Trinity is used zero times.

    I consider the statement, "Jesus only died for some of our sins" to be blasphemy, a personal attack at Jesus for His work on the cross.

    Jesus died for ALL of my sins. :)

    God is a sovereign God, and is not subject to your rules.

    Exactly.

    Saying that God is a sovereign God who chose certain ones only, is a contradictory statement. Pick one side or the other. The word predestinate can mean "determine beforehand"=foreknowledge.

    "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."
    - Romans 8:29,30 NASB

    1. "foreknew" and "predestined" are listed as two seperate entities in the first line, noted by the word, "also", meaning "additionally", or "moreover"
    2. He calls the "predestined".
    3. He justifies the "called".

    Does God justify those that are not called?
    Did we predestine, or did He predestine?

    The words "foreknew", "predestined", "called", "justified", and "glorified" are all corequisites.
    Try putting a "had not" in front of any of those words as they appear in the verse; it will always effectively negate the entire statement.
    Let's try it:
    "For whom He foreknew, He also had not predestined"
    Eh? :confused:

    "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him." - Ephesians 1:3,4

    Did He choose us, or did He not?


    Just a few things to think about....

    God bless
     
  13. imallforgod

    imallforgod Computer Geek at Heart

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    No offense or anything but there are some things about TULIP I definately do NOT agree about. I can concede that the Lord called many of us to be His children. What I do not concede is that the Lord died only for thos who would accept him. I also do not believe that I could lose my salvation by sinning. If that was the case, then I would never have been able to be saved in the beginning.

    however, I would like to talk about prayer more, if y'all don't mind. I would like to know what you think the purpose of prayer is. Is it to talk to God? Is it to ask for what we would like, to ask for things in our life to change or go away, or what? And is there EVER a time where prayer will change the original course of events. Another way (and this was asked in another forums I frequent) of asking this question is can God change his mind? Or does he predestine or know that his orginial intent would be one way but then that changes? Am I confusing anyone.....I'm confusing myself! :confused:

    I guess I would never be a calvinist *LOL* there is too much I disagree with ..... :D

    I have other questions, too if anyone would like to talk, message me.....I have been seeking the Lord a lot this year and so many questions and new thoughts are going through my mind and there is no outlet ...but its wonderful to see happen :)

    God bless!
     

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  14. Caedmon

    Caedmon kawaii Supporter

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    Hi imallforgod....
    Sorry if I rambled too much.... :(

    As far as prayer goes.... God says that when we are seeking Him, anything we ask, we will receive.
    I think that more than anything, prayer is not really the way we get God to do what we want, but rather, it's a way that we can learn how to align our lives with Him.
    Another way of thinking about it is this: if you don't ever talk to a friend, what kind of relationship will you have with that person? Prayer helps us to grow in the loving friendship and relationship with God that Christians are blessed with. I love to talk to God first thing in the morning and last thing before bed. If I don't know what to pray, or if I'm just plain sleepy, I say the Lord's Prayer; it's a good starting place for times when concentration or inspiration are lacking.

    Well, I hope that helps at least a little. :)

    God bless you. :)
     
  15. chuck

    chuck New Member

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    I would like to bring up one question.
    If God indeed does create some for salvation and others to be condemned and does not give either side a choice in this, then I need help with the following scripture:

    -- New King James
    Genesis 6:5-7 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.''


    Now if God had created people with the sole purpose that some would be saved and some would be condemned, by His design not ours, then why was He sorry that He created man? Given that belief that man had no choice in this then God made them the way they were and are so why does God grieve over something that was created exactly as He intended?


    Just another thought :)
    God Bless
    Chuck
     
  16. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    When talking about predestination, foreknowledge and calling, I would like to mention Jonah.

    I truly believe that if God wants a specific person to fill a specific job for Him, He's going to get you. One way or another. You can resist and resist and if He wants you, He will get you. :D

    Look how Jonah tried to resist what God wanted Him to do! Didn't work, did it???

    I think Veracious Maven touched on a good point, too. Prayer does change things, but only if it falls in line with what God has planned. His foreknowledge may be that at that particular point in time someone will pray for a change and because God has planned it that way, it will change.

    Prayer should never be underestimated. If you feel you need to pray about something(receiving that gentle nudge)then you'd better be praying.
     
  17. chuck

    chuck New Member

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    Well with prayer one good example is Hezekiah. (2Kings 20) Here is a man that God told Isaiah to go tell he would not recover from the sickness he had so to get his house in order. Pretty stright foreward he was going to die from the illness he had. But Hezekiah prayed and God heard his prayer and sent Isaiah back, before Isaiah even made it to the inner couartyard, to tell him that He would extend his life by 15 more years and rescue him and the city from the king of Assyria.

    I have heard arguments that say God had already planed for Hezekiah to pray so this was already predestined. I can not give you proof that this is the way it was or not. But I have to take in account that this was put in the bible this way for a reason that God decreed something and then because of prayer He withdrew from His original decree.

    God Bless
    Chuck
     
  18. Christsoldier

    Christsoldier So, I'm an apologetic!

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    Yes, I wonder what the outcome would have been if Hezekiah had not prayed. I think , maybe, that was put in the Bible to show that our prayers and petitions do have meaning and are not just meanlingless mouthings to a deity who couldn't care less!

    He does want, so very much, to hear from us, His children.
     
  19. Debbie

    Debbie Active Member

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    Prayer is such an important aspect of Christian life, you posed a good question & the responses are so good also. There is a little book called the "Prayer of Jabez" that points out so many things about the way in which we pray.I enjoyed it a lot. I try to avoid books that tell us to pray for anything, believe we recieve, & according to the formula God has to give it to us. I see it on tv all the time. BUt as someone said earlier, according to scripture, we should take care in prayer when we ask something to see if it is according to his will. Other people say we should not be specific, but be general in prayer when ASKING for something by saying, "LOrd you know I am in financial trouble, please help me see your will to resolve this matter". (Instead of praying to get a specific job for example. ) It may not be God's will for you to get that specific job, maybe he wants you to have a different job.
     
  20. imallforgod

    imallforgod Computer Geek at Heart

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    What about a conversationlistic point of view? Should prayer only be a time for resolving of issues, or is that your time to talk to God on a personal level? Or DO you talk to God on a personal level.

    I'm not a new Christian and its not that I do not know the answers to these questions. I like to stir up the pot a bit and see others point of view.

    The Prayer of Jabez was a wonderful book, too, btw. I've read it a couple times and love the fresh view I got from it.
     
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