Predestination, All Things are Determined by God, Even the Outcome of a Roll of a Dice

[cgaviria]

All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 [NIV])

The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. (1 Samuel 2:6 [ESV])

For he wounds, but he also bandages; he strikes, but his hands also heal. (Job 5:18 [NETBIBLE])

“‘See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. (Deuteronomy 32:39 [ESV])

For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

We may throw the dice, but the LORD determines how they fall. (Proverbs 16:33 [NLT])

Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,

Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles. (Acts 1:26 [NIV])

And even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,

that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. (Matthew 5:45 [NIV])

And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. (Psalm 139:13 [NIV])

And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,

Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. (Luke 12:7 [NIV])

Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (John 6:44 [NIV])

The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will. (Proverbs 21:1 [ESV])

“He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.” (John 12:40 [ESV])

Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,

Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD? (Exodus 4:11 [ESV])

Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4 [KJV])

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (Romans 9:22 [ESV])

And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth terrible plagues against Egypt,

"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 7:3 [NASB])

For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." (Romans 9:17 [NIV])

In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,

Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the LORD Almighty, in the day of his burning anger. (Isaiah 13:13 [NIV])

Every valley shall be raised up, every mountain and hill made low; the rough ground shall become level, the rugged places a plain. And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all people will see it together. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken." (Isaiah 40:4-5 [NIV])

Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,

Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty. (Malachi 4:3 [NIV])

And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])

And what if he is willing to make known the wealth of his glory on the objects of mercy that he has prepared beforehand for glory-- (Romans 9:23 [NETBIBLE])

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Romans 9:15 [NIV])

So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. (Romans 9:18 [NLT])

And also demonstrate his love,

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:8 [NIV])

Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. (John 9:2-3 [NIV])

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,

Who accuses against the chosen of God? God is the one justifying. (Romans 8:33 [ABP])

Paul, a bondman of God, and apostle of Jesus Christ, for belief of
the chosen of God, and full knowledge of truth, of the one according to piety; (Titus 1:1 [ABP])

But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13 [ESV])

And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,

even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love (Ephesians 1:4 [ESV])

And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. (Romans 8:30 [NIV])

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,

So then it is not of the one wanting, nor of the one running, but of the showing mercy of God. (Romans 9:16 [ABP])

And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you to repentance? (Romans 2:4 [BSB])

 

[redblue22]

Why do you believe any of that?

 

[cgaviria]

Why do you believe any of that?

Because it is written.

 

[timewerx]

For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,

I agree but it's also physics.

If you know everything like the exact speed and vector, angular momentum, friction coefficient, center of gravity, air currents, quantum variables, etc...

And then all the variables concerning the person and the dice and all variables that would affect how he or she will throw the dice...

If you can perceive all these incredible number of variables that are mostly invisible to the naked eye and calculate the results in real time, you'll be able to predict the outcome of a dice with 100% accuracy everytime!

Of course, in order to pull that trick, you'd have to be God-Like in perception and mental capacity anyway. Nothing short of a miracle!

Of course, if you have such mental capacity, you'll be able to very accurately predict the future and even perhaps, alter/determine the fate of this world.

 

[cgaviria]

I agree but it's also physics.

If you know everything like the exact speed and vector, angular momentum, friction coefficient, center of gravity, air currents, quantum variables, etc...

And then all the variables concerning the person and the dice and all variables that would affect how he or she will throw the dice...

If you can perceive all these incredible number of variables that are mostly invisible to the naked eye and calculate the results in real time, you'll be able to predict the outcome of a dice with 100% accuracy everytime!

Of course, in order to pull that trick, you'd have to be God-Like in perception and mental capacity anyway. Nothing short of a miracle!

Of course, if you have such mental capacity, you'll be able to very accurately predict the future and even perhaps, alter/determine the fate of this world.

Man cannot of himself predict the future, except what God reveals that he has determined will be, for just as man had now way of knowing that a new earth will come into existence, God has made known his decree to do so to man.

 

[Daryl Gleason]

All things, whether good or evil, are determined by God to happen, hence,





For just as a man moves his own arm by his own mere will, so does God move even the smallest speck of dust, even just one atom, by his own mere will, which is why even the outcome of the roll of a dice is determined by God,


Hence why the apostles cast lots to choose who the twelfth apostle would be to replace Judas, knowing that nothing occurs by chance, but by what God determines to be,


And even the rising of the entire sun happens because God moves the sun to rise,


And so, absolutely nothing happens outside of what God has determined by his will. Even the formation of a baby in the womb is caused by the will of God,


And God has even numbered the amount of hairs on your head, because just as God has caused the formation of a baby in the womb by his mere will, so in likewise manner has God caused the very hairs on your head to grow to thus know how many hairs you have,


Even every decision of man is determined by God, as he is the one that controls the hearts of men, whether he draws them forth towards him, or whether he pushes them away from him, hence,





Even all who have disease are determined to be so by God,


Even sinners are determined by God to be sinners,

As such, the purpose God has appointed sinners to exist is so that he may demonstrate his wrath and make known his power and judgments,


And just as God hardens the hearts of man, so did he also harden the heart of Pharaoh, so that because of Pharaoh's refusal to let the sons of Israel go, God may then demonstrate his power by bringing forth terrible plagues against Egypt,



In which case God also hardens the hearts of man to this day, so that because of all those whom he has hardened on the earth, he may one day demonstrate his great power upon the entire earth by bringing forth great and powerful judgments, to even cause the entire earth to quake at his presence,



Along with many other judgments to demonstrate his great power, which will result in the reduction of all the wicked to mere ashes,


And on the other hand, he has also appointed sinners to exist so that he may demonstrate his mercy,





And also demonstrate his love,


Even those who God has appointed to be blind, or mute, or deaf, are appointed to be so that God may demonstrate his power to heal,

And so, whoever God demonstrates his mercy and love to is whoever he chooses to be his,



And all who are chosen by God have also been predestined to be his from before the foundation of the world,




And just as God has chosen who will be his, he has also chosen who will not be his, which is why it is not whether a man runs or not that determines if he will be saved, but it is whomever God chooses to show mercy to,


And so, whoever comes to repentance does so because of the kindness of God, since God is the one who draws men to him,

Very well done. You use a couple of absolutes than I'm not entirely comfortable with, but the holy spirit has led me to essentially the same understanding.

For those reading this who may be wondering how to reconcile it all with free will, there are two perspectives: ours as finite humans and God's. From our perspective, at any given moment in time, all possible choices are available to us, and we are free to choose any of them.

However, God's perspective is outside of time, and he already knows all choices that are made. More than that, he ordains them, as brother Gaviria's verses illustrate.

The interesting part is that if we look back at our past choices and are honest with ourselves, we must admit that, given who we were in the precise moment we made a choice, we could not actually have made any choice other than that which we made.

So, while our choices are entirely wide open from our perspective, from God's -- and even from our own hindsight -- all choices are predetermined.

The implications of this are significant. Never can we miss out on an opportunity, because if we had been meant to avail ourselves of it, we would have chosen accordingly.

In the same way, and even more importantly, we can never be outside of the will of God, so we never need to worry about this. Sometimes we just need to learn things the hard way. God understands this and directs our lives so that we will go through exactly what is needed to effect the changes and transformations he wishes us to undergo throughout our lives.

We truly can rest in him, and I for one am extremely grateful for this.

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[redblue22]

um, no.

 

[Daryl Gleason]

um, no.

So you're saying that all of the verses presented above are false?

In Christ,
Daryl

 

[SnowyMacie]

The future doesn't exist.

 

[cgaviria]

The future doesn't exist.

The future may not be in current existence in the present, but God has foretold what the future will be, because he has determined what it will be.

 

[SnowyMacie]

The future may not be in current existence in the present

That's not what I said. I said the future doesn't exist.

 

[cgaviria]

That's not what I said. I said the future doesn't exist.

Then explain yourself plainly. Clearly God foretells the future, hence prophecy.

 

[SnowyMacie]

Then explain yourself plainly. Clearly God foretells the future, hence prophecy.

I'm not sure how much more plain I can get. I don't think the future exists, it's not a thing because time is just the measurement between two events. The future can't exist because it hasn't happened yet.

 

[EmSw]

Because it is written.

So, did God determine you to be a lost sinner?

 

[cgaviria]

I'm not sure how much more plain I can get. I don't think the future exists, it's not a thing because time is just the measurement between two events. The future can't exist because it hasn't happened yet.

Answer me this, has God and does God foretell the future?

 

[cgaviria]

So, did God determine you to be a lost sinner?

He has determined all to be sinners that he may then demonstrate his mercy, hence,

For God has bound up all in disobedience, that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:32 [BLB])

 

[SnowyMacie]

Answer me this, has God and does God foretell the future?

I see it more as God saying he would do something and then he does it or him saying something would happen and then it happens since He's God and his plans happen. What I don't believe is that those plans include every miniscule detail of everyone's life.

 

[RDKirk]

That's not what I said. I said the future doesn't exist.

The future is not material, but the future exists.

But wait, perhaps I'm assuming too much about your beliefs.

Do you believe God exists?

Do you believe God is material?

If God is not material, then again, do you believe God exists?

If so, then you agree that existence is not dependent on material being.

Do you believe that the future exists in the mind of God? That God knows what the future is?

Does a think exist if it exists in the mind of God, even if it is not material?

If it exists in the mind of God, is it not then part of God?

And doesn't God exist?

 

[cgaviria]

I see it more as God saying he would do something and then he does it or him saying something would happen and then it happens since He's God and his plans happen. What I don't believe is that those plans include every miniscule detail of everyone's life.

So indeed God does foretell the future. Yet even so, what God declares to occur happens because he wills it to happen. So there is both a foreknowledge, and also predetermination by God, hence why,

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. (Romans 8:29 [NIV])

 

[SnowyMacie]

So indeed God does foretell the future. Yet even so, what God declares to occur happens because he wills it to happen. So there is both a foreknowledge, and also predetermination by God, hence why,

I guess I'm just predetermined to be a strong believer in free will.