preacher cuts up Harry Potter books

[Pete Harcoff]

Originally posted by Gerry
Sorry you have having a hard time understanding. But Christians have no choice in their stand against witchcraft and wizardry

<quotes snipped>

Hope this helps.

All this shows is that apparently you can't make the distinction between children's make-believe (HP) and real-world witchcraft as practiced today (Wicca).

If you think the Bible is somehow referring to Harry Potter when it mentions witchcraft... oi

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Gerry
Well all I can say is, I don't write this stuff. I just quote from God's written Word.

A quote from the Bible, taken without sufficient information about the context in which it was written, may lead to misunderstandings. I don't think anyone's been debating whether or not there's a word in the Bible, translated as "witch", which denotes something Christians probably shouldn't be getting along with.

The debate, I think, is over whether or not that word could plausibly be extended to describing Hermione Granger, a student witch at Hogwarts. I would say it couldn't; in the fictional world in which she lives, some people have talents called "magic" which are neither good nor evil in themselves; these talents are not particularly similar to what the Bible describes when it speaks of witchcraft.

Hermione does not worship false gods or idols. She does not engage in ritualistic sex. She does not believe her magic to be divine in origin; her magic is no more "witchcraft" than my ability to program computers - no matter how magical that would look to a medieval scholar. So far as we can tell, she celebrates Christmas. She is honest, loyal to her friends, and studious to a fault.

In short, she is a good example of a well-raised Christian child her age who is studying a thing which we don't have in our world. She doesn't look like a "witch" to me, in the Biblical sense.

 

[Gerry]

Sorry Seebs. But that old "arguement" that something is taken out of context when it doesn't suit your ideas, is very old and tired and just plain wrong.

I posted Scriptures that clearly say what they mean and mean what they say. Read them again and put them in your own context if that appeases you.

Oh and please do explain how the story of Saul is "taken out of context'! You and I both could easily copy the entire story out of the Bible and post it here. But then if we did, everyone would clearly see and understan the context, wouldn't they!

Now since you have gone to great lengths to defend Hermione, saying she is innocent of everything that has to do with witchcraft or even the appearance of it, then please tell me why a Rose would want to be called a daffodil.

Would you, as a man, choose to be called a woman? No, of course not. So if this is not about witchcraft and magi and wizardry, Why USE THE TERMS?

Just something to ask yourself!

 

[Gerry]

I see no need for a child to "make believe" he/she is something expressly FORBIDDEN AND CONDEMNED by God! Another Quote from God's WRITTEN WORD:

1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Originally posted by Pete Harcoff
All this shows is that apparently you can't make the distinction between children's make-believe (HP) and real-world witchcraft as practiced today (Wicca).

If you think the Bible is somehow referring to Harry Potter when it mentions witchcraft... oi

 

[seebs]

Would you show how the story of Saul is remotely similar to Harry Potter?

They use the terms because THE WORD WITCH HAS WELL OVER A DOZEN DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

They're referring to "woman who uses a force called magic". You're referring to "woman who uses a force directly opposed to God". She's in a fictional world in which magic is neither good nor evil. You can't draw conclusions about it from this one.

As to context... If context doesn't matter, then you support slavery, right, because there are sentences in the Bible which appear to condone it?

Would I choose to be called a woman? No. I might choose to be called a Christian, even though there are other Christians who don't have the same beliefs that I do.

 

[Gerry]

I agree Susan. The boundary is not blurred at all but is very clear in the lioght of God's written Word. And magic, witchcraft, etc., is certainly not a "simple storytelling plot device" in Harry Potter. It IS the story.

As far as "overly literal" is concerned, isn't that like saying someone is overly pregnant?

Originally posted by Susan
I believe the Bible too. I do not wish to argue or start dissent, however one can indeed believe every single word and letter of the Bible and still watch/read something for entertainment where "magic" is used as a plot device, unless such a person believes that said magic is actual and real rather than a simple storytelling device.

That can come about through the efforts of overly literal parents/pastors/teachers just as much or even more so than it can come about through someone's own active imagination.

The boundary between reality and fiction is not "blurred" for most people, nevertheless.

 

[Gerry]

Sorry Seebs. I am not sure what your problem is but this reply is completely and totally out of line. You have willfully twisted my words refering to context simply because YOU cannot answer the charge. That is surely beneath anyone of your intelligence. If you wish to redefine words to justify your approval of something God condemns then that is between you and God. I go with what God says, EVERYTIME.

Do you want your daughter taught to play a harlot, because it is just fiction and it is neither good nor evil? Get serious!

Originally posted by seebs
Would you show how the story of Saul is remotely similar to Harry Potter?

They use the terms because THE WORD WITCH HAS WELL OVER A DOZEN DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

They're referring to "woman who uses a force called magic". You're referring to "woman who uses a force directly opposed to God". She's in a fictional world in which magic is neither good nor evil. You can't draw conclusions about it from this one.

As to context... If context doesn't matter, then you support slavery, right, because there are sentences in the Bible which appear to condone it?

Would I choose to be called a woman? No. I might choose to be called a Christian, even though there are other Christians who don't have the same beliefs that I do.

 

[seebs]

How about an even more clear quote from God's written word: "Therefore art thou inexcusable, O man, that judgest."

That seems pretty clear to me. No judging. Ever. Not even under the guise of saying it's just God's judgement; He's making His judgements just fine, and doesn't need us playing at being yes-men.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by Gerry
Sorry Seebs. I am not sure what your problem is but this reply is completely and totally out of line. You have willfully twisted my words refering to context simply because YOU cannot answer the charge.

No, I have said that I think context *DOES* matter. I do not believe your understanding of the word "witch" is correct. I believe that, by taking a statement against a very narrowly understood group of people, and applying it to the whole spectrum of people denoted by a modern English word, you are missing the point of God's word.

If you wish to redefine words to justify your approval of something God condemns then that is between you and God. I go with what God says, EVERYTIME.

I believe you are expanding on what God actually said, and including your own modern American understanding of a word. I believe this is not what God said.

Do you want your daughter taught to play a harlot, because it is just fiction and it is neither good nor evil? Get serious!

I don't, but then, I believe that harlots actually exist, and I see substantial similarity between fictional and real harlots.

I see no similarity at all between the people the Bible prohibits, and some of the people denoted by the very broad modern word "witch".

I have news for you. THE BIBLE WAS NOT WRITTEN IN MODERN AMERICAN ENGLISH. The word originally used in the passages quoted was a Hebrew word, which referred to people who *actually existed* in the time of the Hebrews. Those people did not buy wands from a wand shop, spend seven years at a boarding school, and say humorous pseudo-latin nonsense words to do their magic. They did not celebrate Christmas.

Okay, let's put this another way. Let's say we go to a place where there are very few Christians, and they're all Mormons. (You may not think Mormons are Christians, but that's how they'd introduce themselves.) So, you tell these people you're a Christian, and they immediately tell you that you're crazy, and they don't believe in the book of gold for a minute. They continue to explain that they don't care how neatly dressed you are, they don't want you coming to their house to witness to them, and they aren't wearing those weird ritual clothes.

Do you keep saying you're a Christian? Of COURSE you do! Does that mean you're a Mormon? No.

The "witches" in Harry Potter are not the same meaning of the word as the "witches" in the Bible. They aren't even very similar.

 

[No gods]

Originally posted by coastie
Absolutely hillarious... are you insulting me?

Actually, I was only commenting on the hypocrisy of a christian who basis their beliefs in a book making fun of others who base their beliefs in a "stupid" book.

 

[Gerry]

Well, I appreciate your little mini lessons, which you launch off into when you cannot answer or refute a charge.

But your lesson on witchcraft and definitions are wasted on me. Good chance I know as much about is as you. Possibly more. I am sorry you doubt the reality of witchcraft.

And believe it or not after some formal eduation I was able to come to the conclusion, WITHOUT your help that the Bible was not written in modern American English.

I also know how many definitions there are of the term witch and I KNOW which one GOD uses, DO YOU???

And please, do NOT be so petty and condescending to me. Those smart little remarks about how there were no shops to buy wands in, is so petty and little. I thought much more highly of you than that.

But if this is the way you discuss things I won't waste any more of my time with you, because no matter how much you protest, God knows exactly how to say what He means, and does it very well without the need for you to rewrite it for Him.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. {soberly: Gr. to sobriety}

May God help us all to apply that verse to ourselves, and to be uplifting in our discussions and not confrontational. May we reverence God's Word for what it is and accept those things it says. May God bless you and fill your heart with love, compassion and respect for others.

Originally posted by seebs
No, I have said that I think context *DOES* matter. I do not believe your understanding of the word "witch" is correct. I believe that, by taking a statement against a very narrowly understood group of people, and applying it to the whole spectrum of people denoted by a modern English word, you are missing the point of God's word.



I believe you are expanding on what God actually said, and including your own modern American understanding of a word. I believe this is not what God said.



I don't, but then, I believe that harlots actually exist, and I see substantial similarity between fictional and real harlots.

I see no similarity at all between the people the Bible prohibits, and some of the people denoted by the very broad modern word "witch".

I have news for you. THE BIBLE WAS NOT WRITTEN IN MODERN AMERICAN ENGLISH. The word originally used in the passages quoted was a Hebrew word, which referred to people who *actually existed* in the time of the Hebrews. Those people did not buy wands from a wand shop, spend seven years at a boarding school, and say humorous pseudo-latin nonsense words to do their magic. They did not celebrate Christmas.

Okay, let's put this another way. Let's say we go to a place where there are very few Christians, and they're all Mormons. (You may not think Mormons are Christians, but that's how they'd introduce themselves.) So, you tell these people you're a Christian, and they immediately tell you that you're crazy, and they don't believe in the book of gold for a minute. They continue to explain that they don't care how neatly dressed you are, they don't want you coming to their house to witness to them, and they aren't wearing those weird ritual clothes.

Do you keep saying you're a Christian? Of COURSE you do! Does that mean you're a Mormon? No.

The "witches" in Harry Potter are not the same meaning of the word as the "witches" in the Bible. They aren't even very similar.

 

[MyJhongFist]

Originally posted by Gerry

Now since you have gone to great lengths to defend Hermione, saying she is innocent of everything that has to do with witchcraft or even the appearance of it, then please tell me why a Rose would want to be called a daffodil.

Why would it matter to a rose what we called it?&nbsp; Is a rose really affected by our opinion?

Originally posted by Gerry
Would you, as a man, choose to be called a woman? No, of course not. So if this is not about witchcraft and magi and wizardry, Why USE THE TERMS?&nbsp;

Because the secular world sees those words as harmless.&nbsp;&nbsp;Why are you holding a secular person to a Christian standard?&nbsp; Do you think that everyone who is called a Christian, actually is one?

Do you really believe that the author has some secret agenda to indoctrinate our children?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If you do then I will not respond to any of your further posts and I will resign you to the 'conspiracy theory' and 'new world order' whackos.

Or do you think that she uses the word 'wizard' the way the rest of the world does, in the fictional sense.&nbsp; Witches and wizards are popular.&nbsp; They make money.&nbsp; Most people who write about them have no knowledge of what they really are.

 

[seebs]

Gerry: Obviously, we disagree over what was meant by the word translated into "witch" in the Bible.

As to my doubts, I doubt there is anything in the real world even *similar* to the fictional magic in Harry Potter. I see no threat to us here. You seem to be missing my point; the wand shops don't exist in our world because *THE STUFF IN HARRY POTTER IS NOT LIKE THE STUFF GOD PROHIBITED*.

God says what He means. None of us understand it completely correctly. I think He means that people should not follow false gods; I don't see any problem with fictional magic, any more than I see a problem with science fiction; it's fiction about what people might do if the world were different.

 

[seebs]

BTW, I haven't seen any plausible "charges". No one is misrepresenting you, Gerry; several of us are not sure your interpretation is correct. The accusation that Harry Potter is "witchcraft" in the Biblical sense seems to me to require some support; we could start with some actual similarities, as opposed to all the *differences* people have pointed out.

In the C.S. Lewis Narnia books, many of the good people use magic. Does that mean that C. S. Lewis was a pagan, or that his books promoted witchcraft?

The English word used just doesn't seem specific enough to draw your conclusion.

 

[E-beth]

When Harry Potter became popular, I joined teh ranks of those saying that it was evil and promoted witchcraft, etc.
Then I was in the bookstore finding a book to take to the hospital with me when I had my baby. The first HP was there by the checkout, in paperback, so I grabbed it.

Now I own all four HP books and I love 'em. I love all types of literature, but especially children's literature. When I was a kid, I loved a series of books about a tiny witch named Dorrie who got into all sorts of zany adventures. Also, Mrs Piggle Wiggle gave out all sorts of potions for curing children of nasty habits. I also liked to watch the show Bewitched.

I am a Christian and have been since the age of five. To say that I can't be a Christian and love the Harry Potter books is bad form, and I can tell you that my faith is secure no matter what I read.

God gives us a wonderful little device called CHOICE. The U.S> also gives us choices. I can choose to read or not read, listen or not listen, watch or not watch any thing I deem to be unacceptable. I can tell you the reasons that I made my decision. But I cannot make the choice for you, nor should I in Christian behavior call you names or judge you for choosing what you choose.

I would be more concerned about my kids watching that show where the guys try to kill themselves doing goofy things. I think a child would be more successful in imitating skateboarding down a stadium banister than by trying to unlock a door by saying a magic word.

 

[GraftMeIn]

I wonder how many people realy want to stand before God and explain to Him why they encouraged and allowed their children to read stories about witch craft, but didn't encourage them to read His Word because it was more confusing or just not as much fun.

Realy when it comes right down to it. It doesn't matter what others think, it only matters what God thinks. The Bible is clear about Not Follwing the crowd.

Always remember that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light! We shouldn't accept what is clearly evil, and help satan white wash it as something that's good.

 

[seebs]

Tell ya what; I'll change my mind as soon as someone shows me a spell from Harry Potter which works. "Occulum reparo" doesn't seem likely to do much to my glasses - although I don't have a phoenix-feather wand.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by GraftMeIn
I wonder how many people realy want to stand before God and explain to Him why they encouraged and allowed their children to read stories about witch craft, but didn't encourage them to read His Word because it was more confusing or just not as much fun.

Well, if I ever tell my kids not to read the Bible, go ahead and call me on it.

I know that most kids who learn to read learn to read on easy and fun material, before they get into textbooks and the Bible.

 

[Susan]

Originally posted by E-beth
When Harry Potter became popular, I joined teh ranks of those saying that it was evil and promoted witchcraft, etc.
Then I was in the bookstore finding a book to take to the hospital with me when I had my baby. The first HP was there by the checkout, in paperback, so I grabbed it.

Now I own all four HP books and I love 'em. I love all types of literature, but especially children's literature. When I was a kid, I loved a series of books about a tiny witch named Dorrie who got into all sorts of zany adventures. Also, Mrs Piggle Wiggle gave out all sorts of potions for curing children of nasty habits. I also liked to watch the show Bewitched.

I am a Christian and have been since the age of five. To say that I can't be a Christian and love the Harry Potter books is bad form, and I can tell you that my faith is secure no matter what I read.

God gives us a wonderful little device called CHOICE. The U.S> also gives us choices. I can choose to read or not read, listen or not listen, watch or not watch any thing I deem to be unacceptable. I can tell you the reasons that I made my decision. But I cannot make the choice for you, nor should I in Christian behavior call you names or judge you for choosing what you choose.

I would be more concerned about my kids watching that show where the guys try to kill themselves doing goofy things. I think a child would be more successful in imitating skateboarding down a stadium banister than by trying to unlock a door by saying a magic word.

Amen and thank you E-beth. I will answer these other posts later, however if the anti posts keep leaning toward the "it's a CONSPIRACY!!!" argument (as MyJhongFist has pointed out) I'm out of this thread.

If I want to debate misinformation and conspiracies, I would get in an e-mail exchange with Berit Kjos or with the Christians Against Anime Influence, as that is much more my field of experience than Harry Potter is.

 

[Susan]

However I avoid such an exchange because it would be as pointless as this is.