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Pre-wrath verses Post-trib

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Rize, Feb 15, 2003.

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  1. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    This is only for discussing the Pre-wrath rapture position against the post-trib position.

    I'll begin with Mathew 24 and Revelation 6.  I believe the parallels are far to strong to ignore.  I don't want to see suggestions that possibly the parallels aren't correct, I want to see evidence which is just as clear for another position.

    In Mathew 24, Jesus presents a number of things that must happen before the day of the Lord.  These things are:  false christs, wars, famines and earthquakes, great persecution against "you" (Christians I assume) and the gospel preached to all the nations.

    Jesus follows this up by backtracking to the event which starts off the persecution of Christians: the abomination of desolation, immediately after the distress in those days "the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky and the heavenly bodies will be shaken, at that time the sign of the son of man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn, the angels gather god's elect from the four winds and we must keep watch because we don't know when he is coming.

    Now, Revelation 6: Seal 1 is the conquering white rider (false christs/anti-christ?), Seal 2 is war, Seal 3 is famine, Seal 4 is "power of death over a fourth of the earth by sword, starvation and plague/death, and "by the beasts of the earth (the beast?), seal 5 is the completion of the behead martyrs number (implying that the 4th seal is indeed the persecution by Anti-Christ)j, seal 6 is the sun turning black like sackcloth, the moon turned blood red, the stars in the sky fell to earth and all the people of earth lamenting because "the great day of God's wrath has come".

    Now, PostTrib wants me to believe that this is all merely incidental and that tiny things like "the moon not giving her light" verses "the moon turning blood red" should make me discard the whole thing.

    Compare Mathew 24:29 and Revelation 6:12-14 to these OT verses and tell me they don't all refer to the Day of the Lord.

    Isaiah 13:10, 34:4, Joel 3:15.

    Note especially Isaiah 34:4 which is where the "sky rolled up like a scroll" comes from.  All of the evidence points to this being the sign that occurs just before the day of the Lord and thus just before the rapture.

    That puts the rapture a very, very short ways after Revelation 6 (assuming this portion of Revelation is chronological).  And what do we have?  After the sealing of the 144,000 Jews for protection (see the 5th trumpet), we have a great multitude from all nations who have come out of the tribulation.

    Now, PostTrib (and anyone else who wants to get invovled), please demonstrate to me why I should not accept this sign as the sign Jesus spoke of.  It appears extremely clear to me.  To question this would be to question the very fabric of the Bible.  If I can't accept something this obvious, then much of the Bible's teaching would be a complete mystery to me.
     
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  2. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    Ok Rize, i moved over here so i can reply from my other post.  Good idea btw.  If you see a question mark, that indicates a sincere question that prompts an answer. ;)

    You said you thought the trumpets followed the seals in sequence. That i should read again chapter 8. Ok, i did. It still sais, in verse 1:When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.  What is the silence for?  At this point, the scroll is no longer sealed, it is fully visible, readable and in fact does read itself. No one or no where is it stated the the Lamb conceals the scroll any longer in any way. The seals are loosed and the contents displayed.  The question here would then be: what IS the scroll and what does it contain?  Before we can go any further in saying when the seals and trumpets occur, that one question has to be answered, because it is clearly the basis for both.

    Once you answer that, and the silence in heaven question, here is one more, which was previously ignored or just merely overlooked.  The seals are heavenly affected events, the trumpets are earthly affected events. Why the sudden switch if they all happen one after the other in a sequence? 

    In reference to your above post, i have no problem, as i said, with the 6th seal signs of the heavens being that also spoken of in Matthews sign of the son of Man. As you said, it is rather obvious.

    EveofGrace   
     
  3. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I would say that the silence is for respect.  A moment of silence before the destruction that is about to descent.  In fact, the 30 minutes of silence specifically links the opening of the seals and the blowing of the trumpets.

    If it had just been "a sign in heaven" as many of the sequences of Revelation begin, then there would be no explicit reason to take it chronologically.  But this isn't a new sign in heaven, it's a continuing of the previous chronology.  The 7th seal ushers in the 7 trumpets placing them squarely after it.

    I picked up a bunch of books on Revelation at Books-A-Million the other day, they all seemed to agree that the seals, trumpets and bowls occur chronologically (rather than at the same time).

    I see no reason to disagree with these writers and my own instincts and understanding of the passage.

    The scroll is symbolic just as the lamb who opens the scroll is symbolic.  However, the opening of the scroll symbolizes the beginning of the day of the Lord.  I would say that if anything is literally recorded in the large scroll, (as opposed to the small scroll in Revelation 10) then it is the events of hte Day of the Lord.

    And wars and famines are not heavenly affected events.  The only thing that was heavenly was the signs of those things (the 4 horsemen).  John is viewing the Revelation from heaven so he sees signs in heaven which correspond to events on earth.  The signs in heaven during the trumpets are the angels blowing the trumpets.  The things on earth are the judgements (meteors and such).  The signs in heaven for the seals are the lamb breaking the seals and the riding forth of the horsemen.  On earth, you have wars, famine, persecution and the sign of hte day of the lord (sun/moon/stars).

    I guess that's about it.  Glad you agree on the sign of the Day of the Lord.  It is obvious :)  Of course, obvious is an opinion unfortnately.
     
  4. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    Thanks Rize, that was rather thorough and refreshing because i get annoyed when someone replies to a post and avoids the questions. ;)

    Btw, i am not the only one who has the view of the seals and trumpets taking place as an overlapping situation. The bowls are also in the scroll and dont take place simultaneously, but at the end of it. Possiblly the writing on the 'outside' is the bowls.

     Your explanation of the silence in heaven is not without merit. Respect? possibly. Awe? probably.  No where else at any time in the bible is there a space in heaven when praises and sounds cease. A soberring moment no doubt.

    The scroll as a symbol? Ok, lets go with that for a moment. It starts out in the hand of God, already sealed. So a clue, who sealed it. No one, in heaven or earth is found worthy to open it. Hmm. Such a tragedy that John weeps bitterly. What if there had not been the Lamb? Redemption could not have been.  The Lamb being worthy indicates only a sinless man that overcame the curse/death could even look upon it.  So it has a qualification factor. 

    Do you know the Jewish property redemption law?  It is thus: If a man forfeits his property(as Adam did to satan) he then has 6 years to wait before he can claim it back. The property remains in the name of the new owner until that 7th year.  At that time, the previous owner must present a sealed document/scroll to the elders of the city with his qualifications/rights to property written therein. If for some reason the previous owner cannot redeem it, a next of kin, or kinsman redeemer may then step in to claim the property back. 

    I believe that the heavenly sealed scroll is none other than the redemptive document that must be presented(with the elders approval) in order to claim back the earth from satan.  To God, 1 year is as a thousand, and we are fast approaching the actual 7000th. Our calendar sais we have already passed it, but the 6000(6year)period did not begin at creation, but rather the day Adam gave away the earth, which we do not know. Jesus, as the Lamb, is the kinsman redeemer.

      Keep in mind, that what John sees is the OPENNING of the scroll. The LOOSING of the seals. When the Lamb takes it, it has already been sealed and written on so whatever time has elapsed is finished.  If we see a heavenly rider under a seal, doesnt it stand to reason that the rider rode out before the seal is loosed and mor than likely at a time when the seal was placed?  Or similarly if we see an event at the blowing of a trumpet, it is already recorded, and we are seeing what HAS BEEN recorded.  

    Well anyway, now you can see a rather lengthy overview of my view here.  It coincides with creation, redemption law, the Lamb, Daniels 70th week, Matt. 24, what the Day of the Lord IS, and what John himself said as he began to write.

    EveOfGrace  
     
  5. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    If I ever ignore a question, please assume that it was an accident and restate it!

    As for the writing on the outside being the bowls, there never is any writing on the outside of a scroll.  The reason a scroll is sealed is to prevent the contents from being read.  The seals identify things such as requirements of opening the scroll (breaking the seal) and who sealed it in the first place.  Most certainly only God could have written the scroll and sealed it if only Jesus can open it.

    Very good point about the scroll.  It may very well be the deed to the earth, so to speak :)  I like that!

    And we don't know if Adam's age was given in terms of years since the fall, or years since the creation.  If it was years since the creation, then there's no telling how old he was at the fall.  He was younger than 130 though since that's when he had Seth.

    I agree that the things that open the seals may actually precede them.  Thus, the event that triggers the opening of the first seal would be the start of the 70th week of Daniel.  The peace treaty.  Then the riding of the anti-christ (or false christs?) to conquer will begin which allows for the second seal to be broken.  Then the wars wich allow for the third seal.  The famine which allows for the fourth seal.  Then the persecution by death and hades and the beasts of the earth paves the way for the 5th seal.  Then the martyrs are completed paving the way for the 6th seal at which time the sign of the coming of Jesus is given.  The rapture occurs and the sealing of the 144,000 and then the 7th seal is broken and the scroll can be opened (which is why there is silence in heaven and the preparing of the angels with the trumpets).  So in a sense, the first seal initiates the wars, but in truth, the wars must happen to allow the second seal to be opened.  That is, apparently, how scrolls with multiple seals worked.

    Anyway.
     
  6. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    Now i think you are getting how i see this. Except i cannot shake the position that ALL the events under the seals HAVE happened BEFORE the Lamb opens them. 

    A mental picture here.

    Its the end of time, the beginning of the Lords Day. The thrones are seen in heaven, elders are there, because the time of earths redemption has arrived.  The scroll/book is completed, and probally has been since Adam fell. If in fact it IS the deed to earth, which i believe it is of sorts, it cannot be openned until satans time has been complete and the year of Jubilee begins.  The Lamb, kinsman redeemer(since no other man can claim it) must meet requirement, like you said, the seals do. As he opens a seal, what John sees is something that already happened. When it happened we know by what it contains.  Seal 1 took place in the beginning of the 70th week. And so on.  WE are seeing it in retrospect. No seal can be loosed until the 70th week is FINISHED. It may take the Lamb 3 minutes to open them. Once openned, the recorded events written inside(the trumpets), also the 70th week from redemptions view, are also seen, in retrospect. The seals qualify, the trumpets justify. It may take just a couple of minutes, as i said, to loose, open and read the scroll. I am sure you know how fast time goes when you are in the Spirit. Heavens time, Gods time, time in His presence really does not exist. Only here are we restrained by it.

    Before you say i am totally off here:  

    Note this: before the seals are loosed: Now when He had taken the scroll....the 4 living creatures and elders have golden bowls full of the prayers of saints, and they sing a new song, You have redeemed us OUt of every tribe etc....(ch5:8-14) and in verse 13, EVERY living creature in heaven, on earth, under the earth and the see give him GLORY!  How can that be if the 70th week is yet to come?

    And before the scroll is read: (8:3-4) an angel with the prayers of the saints AGAIN.

    The seals and trumpets BOTH begin at the 70th week, we just do not see them until the time is COMPLETE.  The time of redemption, when they are loosed and read.  That is why the 4th seal and 4th trumpet match so closely. They both took place midweek.

    NOte this also:A sea of glass(4:6) is before the throne.  Some pre-tribbers insist this is an indication of the saints, the church all standing in their place there, and thus have been raptured BEFORE the trib. BUT, that same sea of glass is seen again in 15:2, BEFORE the wrath.   Of course it is, because the seals are loosed AFTER the trib, and BEFORE the wrath.

    Wasnt that fun?  
     
  7. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't mention the earthquake of the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12); it only refers to the powers of "the heavens" being shaken. I believe that the earthquake of the 6th seal is included in the earthquakes of Matthew 24:7, and the war and famine of the 2nd and 3rd seals (Revelation 6:3-6) are included in the wars and famines of Matthew 24:6-7, all of which occur prior to the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15, just as all of the seals of Revelation 6 occur prior to the rule of the Antichrist of Revelation 13.

    I believe that the "great earthquake" and fearful signs in the sun, moon, and stars in the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) are included in the "great earthquakes" and "fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven" (Luke 21:11) which will occur before the 42-month treading down of Jerusalem (Luke 21:24; Revelation 11:2) during the 42-month reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5).

    I believe that just as "the sun and the air were darkened" of Revelation 9:2 doesn't refer to "the sun be darkened" of Matthew 24:29, so "the sun became black as sackcloth of hair" (Revelation 6:12) doesn't refer to "the sun be darkened" of Matthew 24:29.

    Also, at the 6th seal the moon appears blood red (Revelation 6:12), whereas after the tribulation the moon will not give any light at all (Matthew 24:29). So I believe the 6th seal is not the same event as the one after the tribulation.

    We know that literal stars are much too big to fall to earth, in fact, each one is millions of times larger than the earth, so the stars that will fall to earth must be meteorites. While there will be a meteorite shower after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29), so also there are meteoritic events during the tribulation, such as the 2nd and 3rd trumpets (Revelation 8:8-10). So I don't believe that the 6th seal meteoritic event is the same as the one after the tribulation.

    I believe Isaiah 34:2-3 refers to the armies the Lord will slaughter at the battle of Armageddon (Revelation 19:19-21), so that Isaiah 34:4 would be a sign associated with Armageddon. Note that neither Isaiah 34:2-4 nor Matthew 24:29-31 refer to the great earthquake of Revelation 6:12.

    I believe the rapture will not be at the 6th seal, but will be "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), after the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are finished. I don't believe that Revelation shows Jesus coming or the Antichrist being destroyed at the 6th seal, for the Antichrist is still gathering his armies after the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12-16), and isn't destroyed until the 2nd coming (Revelation 19:11-21), after the vials (Revelation 16). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.

    Between the 6th and 7th vials, Jesus exhorts us to hold on (Revelation 16:15). I believe this is the same blessing as Daniel 12:12, so that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

    My concern is that if some mistakenly believe that Jesus promised to rapture us right after the cataclysm of the 6th seal, and then he doesn't, and then month after month continues to pass by without any rapture, some may begin to think that something has gone wrong, that maybe Satan has somehow thwarted the rapture. But if we go into the tribulation believing that we must wait 1,335 days after the abomination of desolation for Jesus to rapture us (Daniel 12:11-12), then we'll be prepared to endure to the very end without our faith being shaken.

    I believe the "great multitude" that "came out of great tribulation" (Revelation 7:9, 14) will be those of us Christians who will enter the tribulation and die in the war, famine, and cataclysm of the seals which occur in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6).
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that the seals also affect those on the earth (Revelation 6:8, 13-14).
     
  9. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Does Revelation say the trumpets of the tribulation are "judgments"? I believe that God's judgment may not begin until the 7 vials of wrath at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 15:4, Revelation 16:7), and that none of them will be directed at us Christians.
     
  10. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that there's no correlation between the 4th seal (Revelation 6:7-8) and the 4th trumpet (Revelation 8:12).
     
  11. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    The seals reveal what is SEEN in heaven. The horse riders are not SEEN in earth. So i looked, and behold a pale horse. And the name of him....and power was given him.  This horse, the rider and the power given him are NOT seen anywhere else but in heaven. Yes, the effects of them happen on earth, but they are not described in the seal, just the rider, his name and what power is given him. Same with ALL the seals. John SEES what happens in heaven.

     
    Lets compare.

    The 4th seal, midweek(3.5), begins the persecution, death rides out.  

    Matt.24:15-22. The abomination of desolation is set up, people flee. 21 For THEN there will be great tribulation,(midweek begins 3.5) such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no , nor ever shall be. 22 And unless THOSE DAYS were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but the for elect's sake, THOSE DAYS will be shortened.  The days of great tribulation,(beginning midweek 3.5) are SHORTENED.

    The 4th trumpet: midweek(3.5) A third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.  Wow, so the days are SHORTENED by a third. Just as Matthew said.

    They match EXACTLY.  As do all the trumpets and seals AND Matthew 24.

     

     

     
     
  12. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    I can't take this anymore.

    I'm sorry posttrib, but to me, you just look completely blind.  I'm going to go nuts if I keep going back and forth with you!

    Sorry :)
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that John sees what happens on the earth during the vials (Revelation 6:8, 13-14).

    Note that nothing says or requires that the 4th seal be 3.5 years into the tribulation, or that the 4th seal include persecution, or that the persecution of Matthew 24:9-13 couldn't begin before the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15.

    Because of Daniel 12:11-12, I believe that from the abomination of desolation until Jesus comes we'll have to wait 1,335 days, and that Matthew 24:22 is saying if it went much longer than that nobody would survive.

    Note again that there's no correlation between the 4th seal and the 4th trumpet:

    "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth" (Revelation 6:7-8).

    "And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise" (Revelation 8:12).
     
  14. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Agree with post-trib.  The trumpets and seals just don't line up.  There is no reason why they couldn't line up (technically), but there is no reason that they should either.  And the way in which the 7th seal is opened strongly suggests that the trumpets occur immediately after the 7th seal.

    And postrib, all you've done so far is attacked my position.  You've never stopped to realize that your entire position pretty much rests on taking Revelation 19 as the second coming of Christ.

    But coming (parousia) is a noun.

    It refers to a time period (or certainly could).  With all of the positive evidence I've presented in support of the pre-wrath view, you are left with no good reason to take Revelation 19 as the beginning of Christ's second parousia.
     
  15. EveOfGrace

    EveOfGrace Member

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    LOL you guys. Its 4 am and i cant sleep from having pneumonia for 4 days and doing nothing but resting and here i am not being able to help but laughing at all of us.  Not because we DONT understand perfectly what each other sais, but because we actually DO.  Ok, i know, i am a woman and women should not be teaching men, so i am saying now, that i am NOT.  I do however find it beneficial to discuss this since it 'seems' we all do know the basic meaning of parousia indeed and it also 'seems' that we cant rest until the truth be fully known, as the bible does intend. My view might sound far out there? or maybe too obvious.

     
    No, nothing does say or require that the 4th seal be 3.5 years into the trib. Its just coincidental then, that there are 7 years, 7 seals and 7 trumpets that do NOT conflict. And the scroll is openned like a closed book, which none other than our redeemer(redeeming) can open. The persecution however beginning before the abomination of desolation IS unbiblical, since Daniel sais the AC breaks(midweek) the psuedo peace he previously enacted at the beginning of the week(the 1st (white)horse rider).

      
    Again, no reason they couldnt, no reason they should EXCEPT there are 7 years, 7 seals, 7 trumpets.  And the way in which the trumpets occur immediately AFTER the 7th seal, as you said, suggests more in favor of it, like when i read my son a story, AFTER i open the book first.  "Once upon a time", generally comes only when the book is open.

     
    Matthew 24:22 is saying: except those DAYS(of great tribulation) were shortened, no flesh would be saved, but for the sake of the elect those DAYS are shortened. Just like the 4th trumpets days are shortened.

     
    seal 4:rider of death and hell follows.  Dan. and Matt.: Days of great tribulation(death to saints)midweek(4th day, 3 remaining). trumpet 4: days are shortened, 3 woes remaining.  No flesh would survive if days were NOT shortened. 4,4 and 4. Death, breaking peace, shorten those days, 3 remain. Yeah, no correlation whatsoever. :scratch:  

     
     Gee Rize, i know how ya feel there brother. 

    Indeed, Rev. 19 is the END of the days.

    A prophesied, determined period of 7 last years of sin and completion of it...on the Day of the Lord.  7 seals(introduce and open), 7 trumpets(resound and display) 7 vials(avenge and complete).  Hmm, Maybe that IS silly.

    And maybe i can rest now. lol.  

     
     
  16. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds. If Christ is in heaven with the great multitude (Revelation 7:17), and they had to have been raptured, then Christ would have had to have "descended from heaven" (1 Thessalonians 4:16) to rapture them, then ascended back into heaven, only to have to descend from heaven all over again to destroy the Antichrist at Armageddon (Revelation 19:19-21), making the 2nd coming (parousia) really the 3rd coming (parousia). I believe Paul taught that the Antichrist would be destroyed at the same coming (parousia) of Christ in which we will be gathered together unto him (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 8). I don't believe that Paul taught a 3rd coming (parousia) of Christ.
     
  17. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note again that nothing says or requires that the persecution of Matthew 24:9-13 couldn't begin before the abomination of desolation of Matthew 24:15.
     
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