Pre-tribulation rapture Bible verses

[Ivan Hlavanda]

I believe in Great Tribulation (also known as Daniel's 70th week when the final beast as according to Daniel 7:23 'it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces)
I believe this is the pouring of God's wrath, which Christians will escape, as Jesus drank this wrath of God for us. Here is the Bible verses that point to that:

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
This verse clearly says ALL, not partly, or not escaping at all. Therefore post-tribulation is utter nonsense and not Biblical. Some say that this was in 70 A.D. so that the Jews could escape the Roman Empire and burning of Jerusalem. Ok they escaped that, but did they stand before the Son of Man? No. The only was to escape and stand in front of Jesus is to go to Heaven.

Here more verses that say the same, so you don't say I only pick one verse.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
So there's a hour of trial that is coming on Earth and that God will spare the Born of Spirit Christians from this.

Isaiah 26:20-21 is the same message from God 'Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.' Therefore we see the born-again Christians will not be here when the Lord will visit the Earth and punish the iniquities.

And what shall we escape? The Great Tribulation, the 70th week of Daniel, the rule of the Antichrist. Revelation 6:7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
In a short time, maybe at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, 1 quarter of the Earth will be killed. The population now is 8 billion, so 2 billion will be killed. Some people argue that there have been events in the past where one quarter was killed, even if so, this revelation, as highlighted, 'Death and Hades will follow him' looks like Satan and his demons will come to earth and they will devour it.
Revelation 12:7 'Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”
So there will be a time, where Satan is thrown down to Earth. Satan I believe now is in Heaven...wait what? Since this is the book of revelation it is an even after the book of revelation was written in 95AD. How do I know this has not happened yet. Because where in the history was Satan and his demons thrown on Earth? It hasn't happened yet. No not even the world wars, for they were nothing compared to this event. And also the Holy Spirit is here, and the Holy Spirit is preventing the antichrist to rule the earth
2 Thess. 2:3 'Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'
Who could possibly be powerful enough to restrain antichrist? Only the Holy Spirit. He has to be taken according to this verse, and the Church will be taken with Him. The light of the world will be taken out of this world, so satan can come and destroy it, and the born again Christians are spared, now in Heaven, and every one else, including the people who claim to be Christians but are not, are left behind so they have a last chance to repent, but they will literally but put through hell on Earth.

The parable of 10 virgins sums it up perfectly: “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Look at verse 1, the Kingdom of Heaven will be both like wise and the foolish. So even the foolish are there. What is the difference between the wise and the foolish in this parable? The wise had the oil (Holy Spirit) and the foolish didn't. Because they had the oil, they loved Jesus more than their life, and Jesus takes them. But the foolish don't have the oil, they love their flesh more than Jesus and Jesus when He comes He leaves them behind...but they are still in Heaven. We can thus conclude that the pre-tribulation rapture is true (not just based on this parable, but there's good 20 other verses in this Bible that confirm this).

When the Lord returns on Mount of Olives, He will return as the King of all kings. And He will take the Holy people with Him. When He descends to clouds, He will come as a Groom for His Bride. On Mount of Olives, He will wear a crown of a King, but when He descends to clouds, He will wear a headband of a Groom. There’s a big difference in this. In when He descends into the clouds to pick up His Bride, and when He descends to ground as a King of kings with His armies wearing a pure white linen. Where was this Heavenly army dressed into pure white linen? In Heavenly rooms for Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It doesn’t even make sense if the Lord descended to Mount of Olives and then there have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. How then will it be possible if the rapture didn’t happen first that He arrives on Mount of Olives and we are already dressed in pure white linen. We can find the explanation in Rev. 19:7 ‘Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure” for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” Do you know why the Lord’s Bride can come with Him on Mount of Olives? Because she was dressed in pure white lined before the Marriage Supper of the Lamb that is why the Holy ones come with the Lord on Earth already dressed up in pure white linen. No one can come here on Earth in pure white linen if he were not dressed in it for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And the Holy who will be dressed in pure white linen for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be the ones who get raptured.

And finally: Zechariah 14:6-7 ‘On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.’ And Luke 17:34 ‘I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.’

When Jesus Christ comes back to Mount of Olives it will be neither day nor night, but when the Lord comes into clouds Luke 17:34 says ‘that night’. So in Luke Lord doesn’t talk about His return to Mount of Olives because that day will be neither day nor night. The Lord was talking about completely another day. And He began with the words ‘that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.

There are two phases of Christ’s second coming. In the first phase, He will come into clouds and in the second phase, He will come here down to Earth, on the Mount of Olives.

 

[BABerean2]

The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.



Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The New Covenant: Bob George

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[Ivan Hlavanda]

The Greek words for "wrath" and "tribulation" are not the same word.

I'm not talking about escaping tribulation (all Christians will have tribulations, maybe even more than we would have otherwise). I'm talking about the Great Tribulation (or Daniels 70th week) when the antichrist will rule the Earth (the final beast will devour the world) and many disasters (even more than Egypt) will hit the Earth (God pouring His wrath). This is what we should pray to escape as per Luke 21:36.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I believe in Great Tribulation (also known as Daniel's 70th week when the final beast as according to Daniel 7:23 'it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces)

Too bad the 70th week was already fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ who established the new covenant with His death on the cross and brought an end to the old covenant system of animal sacrifices and offerings. You're already off the rails here and you just got started.

I believe this is the pouring of God's wrath, which Christians will escape, as Jesus drank this wrath of God for us. Here is the Bible verses that point to that:

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
This verse clearly says ALL, not partly, or not escaping at all. Therefore post-tribulation is utter nonsense and not Biblical. Some say that this was in 70 A.D. so that the Jews could escape the Roman Empire and burning of Jerusalem. Ok they escaped that, but did they stand before the Son of Man? No. The only was to escape and stand in front of Jesus is to go to Heaven.

For one thing, we don't need to be taken off the earth to avoid tribulation. The only thing we would need to be taken off the earth in order to escape is the final wrath of God that will come when Christ returns, as described in 2 Peter 3:3-13. Fire will come down upon the entire earth and, obviously, that wrath will be for unbelievers, so we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before that fire comes down upon the earth.

Here more verses that say the same, so you don't say I only pick one verse.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
So there's a hour of trial that is coming on Earth and that God will spare the Born of Spirit Christians from this.

Why would you interpret that verse in a way that would mean Jesus contradicted Himself?

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Clearly, we don't need to be taken out of the world in order to be kept from tribulation. God is fully capable of protecting us while we're still on the earth.

2 Thess. 2:3 'Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'
Who could possibly be powerful enough to restrain antichrist? Only the Holy Spirit. He has to be taken according to this verse, and the Church will be taken with Him. The light of the world will be taken out of this world, so satan can come and destroy it, and the born again Christians are spared, now in Heaven, and every one else, including the people who claim to be Christians but are not, are left behind so they have a last chance to repent, but they will literally but put through hell on Earth.

You missed something very important here. Why did you neglect to quote the first 2 verses of the chapter?

2 Thess 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

This does not support a pre-trib rapture at all because it clearly says that the day when we are gathered to Christ at His coming, which is a clear reference to the day of the rapture, will not come until there is first a falling away and that man of sin is revealed. You somehow have a pre-trib rapture happening before a falling away and man of sin being revealed when Paul clearly taught that the rapture happens after those things.

The parable of 10 virgins sums it up perfectly: “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Look at verse 1, the Kingdom of Heaven will be both like wise and the foolish. So even the foolish are there. What is the difference between the wise and the foolish in this parable? The wise had the oil (Holy Spirit) and the foolish didn't. Because they had the oil, they loved Jesus more than their life, and Jesus takes them. But the foolish don't have the oil, they love their flesh more than Jesus and Jesus when He comes He leaves them behind...but they are still in Heaven. We can thus conclude that the pre-tribulation rapture is true (not just based on this parable, but there's good 20 other verses in this Bible that confirm this).

That does not prove a pre-trib rapture at all. The foolish virgins are not left behind to survive, but rather they will be killed just like all unbelievers.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Verse 10 is clearly a reference to what will happen when the rapture occurs. But, that is not the whole story just like 1 Thess 4:13-18 is not the whole story. You have to keep reading in 1 Thess 5 there and you have to read verses 7-9 here to see the rest of the story. When we are gathered to Christ He then will take vengeance on His enemies and destroy them. In 1 Thess 5:1-6 Paul indicates that this "sudden destruction" will come upon them to such an extent that "they shall not escape".

And, notice that the parable of the ten virgins is about the coming of the Son of man. When does that happen?

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The pre-trib rapture doctrine just cannot hold up to scrutiny. It's only supported by scripture taken completely out of context.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I believe in Great Tribulation (also known as Daniel's 70th week when the final beast as according to Daniel 7:23 'it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces)

1. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
2. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
6. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
7. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
9. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
10. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?

I believe this is the pouring of God's wrath, which Christians will escape, as Jesus drank this wrath of God for us. Here is the Bible verses that point to that:

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
This verse clearly says ALL, not partly, or not escaping at all. Therefore post-tribulation is utter nonsense and not Biblical. Some say that this was in 70 A.D. so that the Jews could escape the Roman Empire and burning of Jerusalem. Ok they escaped that, but did they stand before the Son of Man? No. The only was to escape and stand in front of Jesus is to go to Heaven.

Where does Luke 21:36 or any other Scripture teach a rapture of the church, followed by a 7 year tribulation, followed by 3rd coming?

Here more verses that say the same, so you don't say I only pick one verse.
Rev 3:10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.
So there's a hour of trial that is coming on Earth and that God will spare the Born of Spirit Christians from this.

It is impossible to get Pretribbers to address the multiple contradictions in their doctrine. But I will try again and get you to address this.

Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”

If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.

Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.

Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.

They need to see that the subject matter (namely the keeping) in Revelation 3:10 is reciprocal: “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee.” Jesus was telling them: because the church in Philadelphia had been faithful, Christ was going to be faithful in return. He is basically promising to safeguard or watch over His faithful flock. This was an actual literal promise to an existing church 2,000 yrs ago. But Pretrib makes this promise totally irrelevant to the ones it was actually directed towards. They render it a worthless and baseless assurance.

Isaiah 26:20-21 is the same message from God 'Come, my people, enter your chambers,
and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by. For behold, the Lord is coming out from his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed on it, and will no more cover its slain.' Therefore we see the born-again Christians will not be here when the Lord will visit the Earth and punish the iniquities.

Isaiah speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in Isaiah 26:19-27:1, and also identifies it with the time and events that surround the end of the millennium, saying, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon.”

This seems to tell us that God is keeping the dead in Christ in a safe place until the wicked events of this scene of time have finally been brought to an end and perfect righteousness has been introduced to the new earth. This tells me that the current state of sin and corruption with plagues this earth will be eliminated upon Christ’s return. The new earth that God’s glorified saints will populate will be perfect and pristine.

In this reading Isaiah testifies of the time when he personally, as an Old Testament saint, will be physically resurrected to meet the Lord at His Coming. In doing so, he links this to time when “the earth shall cast out the dead.” Significantly, he relates this climactic resurrection to the dead generally and explains how it corresponds with the great judgment of the wicked, at the end, “for their iniquity.” This occasion plainly embodies all the characteristics of that impending Last Day.

Isaiah describes how this day sees the time when the wicked are raised to be judged, which as we have seen is the very same time that the Old Testament saints are also raised. The passage declares, “behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.” The Hebrew word used here for slain is ‘harag’ meaning to destroy out of hand, kill, and put to death. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore assuredly happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

There is such an obvious finality to this whole reading that no one could surely argue with any credence that it is speaking of anything other than the end of the world. Moreover, this climactic event also sees the complete destruction of that great enemy of the kingdom of God – that old serpent/dragon Satan and the wicked is once and for all destroyed. The resurrection of the righteous must therefore happen at the end of the millennium (and Satan’s little season), the time expressly advanced as the time when Satan is finally slain.

And what shall we escape? The Great Tribulation, the 70th week of Daniel, the rule of the Antichrist.

Maybe you think if you keep repeating an error enough you might convince yourself.

Is there a gap between the 7th and the 8th week?

Daniel 9:2 says: “In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplication, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.”

Are these seventy years linear, congruent and sequential?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Revelation 6:7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.
In a short time, maybe at the beginning of the Great Tribulation, 1 quarter of the Earth will be killed. The population now is 8 billion, so 2 billion will be killed. Some people argue that there have been events in the past where one quarter was killed, even if so, this revelation, as highlighted, 'Death and Hades will follow him' looks like Satan and his demons will come to earth and they will devour it.
Revelation 12:7 'Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

So there will be a time, where Satan is thrown down to Earth. Satan I believe now is in Heaven...wait what? Since this is the book of revelation it is an even after the book of revelation was written in 95AD. How do I know this has not happened yet. Because where in the history was Satan and his demons thrown on Earth? It hasn't happened yet. No not even the world wars, for they were nothing compared to this event. And also the Holy Spirit is here, and the Holy Spirit is preventing the antichrist to rule the earth

I hate to burst your bubble. Satan is already kicked out. Revelation 12 takes us back to the First Advent and identifies the incarnation and glorious resurrection/ascent to give us a sense of timing. This is definitely not talking about, or concentrated upon, the second coming. The focus is the banishment of Satan from heaven and his ongoing defeat on earth by the scenes as they overcome him by the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony. Revelation 12 shows us what happened to Satan after sin, death, Satan and Hades had been defeated. It shows one major consequence for the devil. He lost his power of accusation. After all, sin had been paid for.

Before being cast out of heaven through Christ’s victorious assault on his kingdom the devil had access to both heaven and earth. He had the ability to come before God to accuse the brethren of their sins. When he was cast down he no longer had access to heaven but only to earth.

We know Satan is overcome because Christ overcame him. He can no longer accuse us before the throne of God, so he has to come to us direct down here and point the finger at us - that is if we listen him! Through the casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over.

The only power that Satan possesses is that which man gives him. If every single human being on this earth ignored him, he would be totally impotent. But, there is a twisted tendency within man that prefers the voice of Satan to the voice of God.

Revelation 12 places the defeat of Satan at the resurrection/ascension: "And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Here, in correlation with Revelation 20, we see the end of Satan unchallenged deceiving of the Gentiles. John declares: "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ." How?

Previous to Satan's eviction, God was Israel's God, not the Gentiles God. Satan ruled the nations. But through this casting out of Satan, after man's penalty had been paid in full, he no longer had anything to accuse the elect over. It was indeed finished! The powerful spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles lifting the deception that kept them bound. Satan was now bound. The boot was on the other foot. With the global expanse of the great commission the Gentiles now are without excuse. The ignorance is gone. The veil is lifted. The means by which God lifts deception is the preaching of the Word of God. This has now been successfully ongoing throughout the nations for 2000 years.

Satan's defeat came after the resurrection. Here is when he got his eviction notice, and here is "when" salvation came to the "whole world" - not just one nation Israel. The deception enveloping the Gentiles was lifted - praise God. They are now without excuse, just like those in the OT that rejected salvation. Salvation has now come to the nations. But Satan had to first be cast down. He had to be defeated. Christ’s life, death and resurrection safely secured that. As a result the Church becomes a militant overcoming organism.

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

Christ predicted shortly before He destroyed the power of Satan at the cross, in John 12:30-33: “Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”

Christ’s death, burial and resurrection was the decisive blow against Satan. His defeat has already been wrought. This passage plainly shows the powerful result of Calvary and the deep impact it had upon Satan. It shows us that Satan is now under Christ’s feet and is now subject to His Sovereign will. Satan and his minions are barred from heaven. They have been banished after they were defeated 2,000 years ago.

2 Thess. 2:3 'Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'

Who could possibly be powerful enough to restrain antichrist? Only the Holy Spirit. He has to be taken according to this verse, and the Church will be taken with Him. The light of the world will be taken out of this world, so satan can come and destroy it, and the born again Christians are spared, now in Heaven, and every one else, including the people who claim to be Christians but are not, are left behind so they have a last chance to repent, but they will literally but put through hell on Earth.

We are already there. The reality is, the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit on the wicked has stepped back from nations and governments and we are now in Satan's little season.

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12: declares: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the second coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity (anomos or lawlessness) doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

What type of entity could possibly be “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)?

Who are “them that perish”?

This description is so broad and inclusive that it shows us that it relates to all the eternally damned. Anyone that takes a literal reading of Scripture could not deny this.

No one could surely underestimate the power and influence of this entity. The presence of this wicked entity is so destructive that it causes them to reject the truth and be damned for all eternity.

This text tells us that they are such “because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). Consequently, God sends “them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:11). Here is the mark of reprobation! Here is the mark of the beast! What results is unthinkable: “they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess 2:12).

The mystery of iniquity must therefore be a spirit. This evil spirit dwells “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

This is supported by the characteristics and influence that are attributed to the beast. His influence is wholesale on all those that do not make it to heaven.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The parable of 10 virgins sums it up perfectly: “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps. 5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

Look at verse 1, the Kingdom of Heaven will be both like wise and the foolish. So even the foolish are there. What is the difference between the wise and the foolish in this parable? The wise had the oil (Holy Spirit) and the foolish didn't. Because they had the oil, they loved Jesus more than their life, and Jesus takes them. But the foolish don't have the oil, they love their flesh more than Jesus and Jesus when He comes He leaves them behind...but they are still in Heaven. We can thus conclude that the pre-tribulation rapture is true (not just based on this parable, but there's good 20 other verses in this Bible that confirm this).

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him (or the Lordis coming get ready). Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

This is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming. We see that in Jesus conclusion on this story in v13. He sums up His instruction in the words:

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:6,10-13, “at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him … and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: 'welcome to a 7 yr trib' or 'welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance'. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity. That is what happens when Jesus Comes, the elect are rescued, those left behind are destroyed.

When the Lord returns on Mount of Olives, He will return as the King of all kings. And He will take the Holy people with Him. When He descends to clouds, He will come as a Groom for His Bride. On Mount of Olives, He will wear a crown of a King, but when He descends to clouds, He will wear a headband of a Groom. There’s a big difference in this. In when He descends into the clouds to pick up His Bride, and when He descends to ground as a King of kings with His armies wearing a pure white linen. Where was this Heavenly army dressed into pure white linen? In Heavenly rooms for Marriage Supper of the Lamb. It doesn’t even make sense if the Lord descended to Mount of Olives and then there have the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. How then will it be possible if the rapture didn’t happen first that He arrives on Mount of Olives and we are already dressed in pure white linen. We can find the explanation in Rev. 19:7 ‘Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure” for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” Do you know why the Lord’s Bride can come with Him on Mount of Olives? Because she was dressed in pure white lined before the Marriage Supper of the Lamb that is why the Holy ones come with the Lord on Earth already dressed up in pure white linen. No one can come here on Earth in pure white linen if he were not dressed in it for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. And the Holy who will be dressed in pure white linen for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be the ones who get raptured.

And finally: Zechariah 14:6-7 ‘On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light.’ And Luke 17:34 ‘I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.’

When Jesus Christ comes back to Mount of Olives it will be neither day nor night, but when the Lord comes into clouds Luke 17:34 says ‘that night’. So in Luke Lord doesn’t talk about His return to Mount of Olives because that day will be neither day nor night. The Lord was talking about completely another day. And He began with the words ‘that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left. There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.

There are two phases of Christ’s second coming. In the first phase, He will come into clouds and in the second phase, He will come here down to Earth, on the Mount of Olives.

Could any Premil please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

 

[Davy]

I'm not talking about escaping tribulation (all Christians will have tribulations, maybe even more than we would have otherwise). I'm talking about the Great Tribulation (or Daniels 70th week) when the antichrist will rule the Earth (the final beast will devour the world) and many disasters (even more than Egypt) will hit the Earth (God pouring His wrath). This is what we should pray to escape as per Luke 21:36.

The Pre-Trib Rapture school is not actually keeping to God's Word as written on some important matters about that. That's part of the problem with what you are saying per the above.

1. The idea of escaping the tribulation is a 'spiritual' matter, not one of physical escape. One who is deceived to the Antichrist will not have escaped spiritually, for that is the main warning by Lord Jesus for that time (per Matthew 24:23-26 about a spurious Messiah).

2. The tribulation will involve a time of world peace and prosperity, not all out chaos and war. Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5, showed the deceived and wicked will be saying, "Peace and safety" just prior to the "sudden destruction" upon them. That sudden destruction represents God's cup of Wrath poured out upon them on the last day, the day of Christ's return and gathering of His elect.

3. Jesus returns to gather His Church after... the tribulation, like He said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.

4. The Pre-trib Rapture school has a very smooth system of teaching, and group of professional fiction writers (Tim LaHaye and Hal Lindsay), and they believe what they're preaching from traditions of men. But that's what they are preaching, a tradition from men. There have been many Christian brethren that decided to get down to disciplined Bible study for themselves, and came out of that pre-trib philosophy from certain men that started preaching it in 1830's Great Britain.

 

[BABerean2]

I'm not talking about escaping tribulation (all Christians will have tribulations, maybe even more than we would have otherwise). I'm talking about the Great Tribulation (or Daniels 70th week) when the antichrist will rule the Earth (the final beast will devour the world) and many disasters (even more than Egypt) will hit the Earth (God pouring His wrath). This is what we should pray to escape as per Luke 21:36.

You are promoting a doctrine which is less than 200 years old.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf


The following is a video I produced for YouTube which reveals the original source of the modern Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology

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[Ivan Hlavanda]

You are promoting a doctrine which is less than 200 years old.

I am aware that this doctrine is 200 years old, and there is a reason for that. Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.'
The reason why the rapture was revealed to us in the 19th century is because it was sealed until then.
Daniel 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
When is the time many shall run to and fro? Now, now that we travel all the time, now this knowledge God gave to Daniel is revealed. The Doctrine of Rapture was revealed to us just couple of years after the first locomotive.
There have been many signs in the last few decades that Jesus is soon coming. Israel being back in 1948 (that's the first sign.) Another sign Isaiah 17:1 'This is the burden against Damascus: “Behold, Damascus is no longer a city; it has become a heap of ruins.' At least half of Damascus today is destroyed, look it up yourself. Sign from revelation 12:1 appeared on sky in 2017, on the Feast of the Trumpets, look it up. I can give even more examples.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Too bad the 70th week was already fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ

Not so. ;26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

Every week of Daniel is 7 years. The last week of Daniel has not happened yet. When Jesus read from Isaiah 61 'The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives,
and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; 2 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor' and then He stopped there but the verse continues ' and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn.' Jesus purposely has not finished this sentence because He declared the year of the Lord's favour, and He will declare the day of vengeance of God when He raptures the Church of Christ.

The fourth beast from Daniel 7 is the Antichrist who will rule the Earth during the Great Tribulation. 19 “Then I desired to know the truth about the fourth beast, which was different from all the rest, exceedingly terrifying, with its teeth of iron and claws of bronze, and which devoured and broke in pieces and stamped what was left with its feet, 20 and about the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn that came up and before which three of them fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth that spoke great things, and that seemed greater than its companions. 21 As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom.

'there shall be a fourth kingdom on earth, which shall be different from all the kingdoms,
and it shall devour the whole earth, and trample it down, and break it to pieces.
24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.

This is the futuristic event that is described in Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

The devil will and his demons will be thrown down to the earth so he can devour the Earth as we read in the book of Daniel, that's why God says in Rev 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

This will be when the 4th seal is opened '7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.' This is the 70th week of Daniel, the Great Tribulation, a 7 years of the rule of Antichrist, this is when Satan is thrown down to Earth, that's why God says woe to those who are on Earth. This has not happened yet! So we see the 70th week has not happened, it will happen when Satan and demons are kicked out from Heaven.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Fire will come down upon the entire earth and, obviously, that wrath will be for unbelievers, so we will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air just before that fire comes down upon the earth.

I see where you are coming from, but:
Rev. 19:11 ‘Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

Zechariah 14:5 says, ‘Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.’ All the angels are not holy, and even if they were, they are not dressed in white and pure linen. Those who come with Lord Jesus are according to Rev. 19:14 ‘arrayed in fine linen, white and pure’. Do you know where they were dressed like this? Not here on Earth but as according to Rev. 19:7-8 in Heaven. ‘For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure.’ In Heaven, is the holy army of God dressed in white and pure linen, and when Lord Jesus Christ comes back on Mount of Olives, the holy army is following Him from Heaven.

If you say the Marriage of the Lamb happens after Christ comes down to Earth, then why are we dressed like this in the clouds already if we are dressed like this during the marriage supper of the lamb.

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Clearly, we don't need to be taken out of the world in order to be kept from tribulation. God is fully capable of protecting us while we're still on the earth.

John 17:15 is not the same as Rev 3:10.
John 17:15 “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The reference here refers to protection from Satan and all the wicked forces following him Though Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was the defeat of Satan, he is still loose and orchestrating his evil system against believers. He seeks to destroy believers, as with Job and Peter and in general, but God is their strong protector.

Of course we will have tribulations, Jesus said so, and I am not talking about escaping from them. Of course Christians will be always persecuted for Jesus' name, and when we are not we should be alarmed why this is not the case. Many will be imprisoned, tortured, killed for Jesus' name.
I am talking about the Great Tribulation, when Satan is thrown down on Earth with his demons (I described this event in post 11 to you, this is what we need to pray to escape, not the tribulations.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

You missed something very important here. Why did you neglect to quote the first 2 verses of the chapter?

I am well aware of the 2 verses. It changes nothing. But you missed verse 7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'
Who restrains the lawless one (Antichrist) from being revealed? The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has to be taken out of the way so the Antichrist can rule and devour the Earth. Yes, the spirit of the Antichrist was always here through the history, but this will be a physical manifestation of him. So the Holy Spirit leaves, so do all the Christians that are born of the Spirit.

And, notice that the parable of the ten virgins is about the coming of the Son of man. When does that happen?

Read Matthew 25 again “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.

Both groups are in Heaven, both wise and foolish. The wise because they prepared for the Lord, and the foolish because they did not, they were left behind during the Great Tribulation, but they repent, refuse to bow down to Antichrist for which they are killed (they chose Christ over their Earthly lives finally) and they go to Heaven. Otherwise the Kingdom of Heaven could not be like both wise and foolish.

Again, and this is the point that people are missing. I am not talking about escaping the tribulations, but the Great Tribulation. For me it doesn't matter if I die or I'm raptured. Only few days ago I was resting when my heart started to race and I started to breath rapidly (I have some health history). I thought that was it, I was full of joy that I am going to see the glory of my Lord. I can only gain by dying. So why do I teach about the rapture? Because it will happen one day, and then the unsaved and 'Christians' will be all left behind and then, then the people who falsely thought they were Christians will realise what happened and hopefully repent, they will refuse to bow to Antichrist for which they are killed. Because they are killed for loving Christ more than their life, they still go to Heaven. You of course don't have to know about the pre-tribulation rapture to be raptured, just be born of the Holy Spirit. But as I said there will be many here left behind.

 

[BABerean2]

Who restrains the lawless one (Antichrist) from being revealed? The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has to be taken out of the way so the Antichrist can rule and devour the Earth.

The following two verses prove your claim above cannot be correct.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Based on the verse above, nobody can belong to Christ without the Holy Spirit. See also Ephesians 1:13.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.


.

 

[BABerean2]

I am aware that this doctrine is 200 years old, and there is a reason for that. Daniel 12:9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.'
The reason why the rapture was revealed to us in the 19th century is because it was sealed until then.
Daniel 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
When is the time many shall run to and fro? Now, now that we travel all the time, now this knowledge God gave to Daniel is revealed. The Doctrine of Rapture was revealed to us just couple of years after the first locomotive.
There have been many signs in the last few decades that Jesus is soon coming. Israel being back in 1948 (that's the first sign.) Another sign Isaiah 17:1 'This is the burden against Damascus: “Behold, Damascus is no longer a city; it has become a heap of ruins.' At least half of Damascus today is destroyed, look it up yourself. Sign from revelation 12:1 appeared on sky in 2017, on the Feast of the Trumpets, look it up. I can give even more examples.

You seem to not understand the need for the pretrib doctrine.

Dispensational Theology needs to get the Church off the planet so that God can go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system.

Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.


Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.



“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


.

 

[Timtofly]

You seem to not understand the need for the pretrib doctrine.

Dispensational Theology needs to get the Church off the planet so that God can go back and deal with modern Israel under the Old Covenant system.

Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.


Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.



“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25.

The church is glorified in the 5th and 6th Seals. Now who is placing mortals and immortals on earth at the same time? The church will be literal candlesticks shining brightly like the transfiguration of Jesus' body. Revelation 7 says they shine in the temple of God forever. They are already in Paradise, not on earth. The Second Coming is the 6th Seal because that is what Jesus claims in Matthew 24:29. Then the 144k are sealed so the Trumpet judgments do not harm them. The Second Coming is after the tribulation of the 4th Seal. It happens prior to the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is the end of the Second Coming event, just like the Cross was the end of the first coming. Both events were during an 8 day time frame from Sunday to Sunday.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I see where you are coming from, but:
Rev. 19:11 ‘Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

Zechariah 14:5 says, ‘Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.’ All the angels are not holy, and even if they were, they are not dressed in white and pure linen. Those who come with Lord Jesus are according to Rev. 19:14 ‘arrayed in fine linen, white and pure’. Do you know where they were dressed like this? Not here on Earth but as according to Rev. 19:7-8 in Heaven. ‘For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure.’ In Heaven, is the holy army of God dressed in white and pure linen, and when Lord Jesus Christ comes back on Mount of Olives, the holy army is following Him from Heaven.

If you say the Marriage of the Lamb happens after Christ comes down to Earth, then why are we dressed like this in the clouds already if we are dressed like this during the marriage supper of the lamb.

I didn't say it happens after He comes down to earth. If you read 1 Thess 4:13-5:9, it shows He will descend from heaven, we (believers) are caught up to Him and then "sudden destruction" will come down upon unbelievers from which "they shall not escape".

John 17:15 is not the same as Rev 3:10.
John 17:15 “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The reference here refers to protection from Satan and all the wicked forces following him Though Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross was the defeat of Satan, he is still loose and orchestrating his evil system against believers. He seeks to destroy believers, as with Job and Peter and in general, but God is their strong protector.

Of course we will have tribulations, Jesus said so, and I am not talking about escaping from them. Of course Christians will be always persecuted for Jesus' name, and when we are not we should be alarmed why this is not the case. Many will be imprisoned, tortured, killed for Jesus' name.
I am talking about the Great Tribulation, when Satan is thrown down on Earth with his demons (I described this event in post 11 to you, this is what we need to pray to escape, not the tribulations.

Why would we need to pray to escape things that Christians have been going through for almost 2,000 years already? We certainly don't need to pray to be taken off of the earth in order to avoid tribulation or else what Jesus prayed for in John 17:15 would not make any sense. I say again that John 17:15 proves that your understanding of Rev 3:10 is wrong.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Will this verse not be true at some point in the future? I don't believe so.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I am well aware of the 2 verses. It changes nothing.

It changes everything. You try to say that the rapture will occur after the falling away and man of sin is revealed, but Paul said the falling away and man of sin being revealed has to happen first before His coming and our gathering to Him. Why are you disagreeing with Paul?

But you missed verse 7 'For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed'
Who restrains the lawless one (Antichrist) from being revealed? The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has to be taken out of the way so the Antichrist can rule and devour the Earth. Yes, the spirit of the Antichrist was always here through the history, but this will be a physical manifestation of him. So the Holy Spirit leaves, so do all the Christians that are born of the Spirit.

How can the church be taken out of the way first when Paul said that His coming and our being gathered to Him happens AFTER the falling away and man of sin are revealed? You are not accepting what Paul said. It is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that will be taken away and the church does not need to be removed in order for that to occur.

Because of the mass falling away that Paul talked about, the witness of the church will be weak and that is what will cause wickedness to increase. That is exactly what is already occurring in our time. It seems to me that the falling away Paul referred to has already started because the world is becoming more and more secular as time goes on. The church is becoming weaker as time goes on. Look at all the immorality going on out there and what are we, the church, doing about it? Not very much. Not nearly enough.

Read Matthew 25 again “Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise.

Both groups are in Heaven, both wise and foolish. The wise because they prepared for the Lord, and the foolish because they did not, they were left behind during the Great Tribulation, but they repent, refuse to bow down to Antichrist for which they are killed (they chose Christ over their Earthly lives finally) and they go to Heaven. Otherwise the Kingdom of Heaven could not be like both wise and foolish.

What in the world are you talking about here? Where are you seeing any reference to the foolish virgins ever repenting? There is no reference to that whatsoever. You are adding things to the text which are not there. It does not say that the foolish virgins go to heaven. Where are you seeing that?

Why do you think they are called foolish? Because they were not ready for Christ's return. It's only unbelievers that are not ready for His return, not believers. What did Jesus say will happen to those who are not ready for His return? That they would be given an opportunity to repent? No way! It will be too late at that point. You are giving the wicked a second chance that Jesus never said He would give them.

Please read the following passage carefully (this immediately precedes the passage we're talking about):

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Jesus indicated that those who are not ready for His coming will be punished with the hypocrites and "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth". This is the same fate that the foolish virgins will face on the day He comes. They are like those who foolishly say He's delaying His coming and are not ready for His return. This describes people who don't really know Him and don't really believe He will come. They will be destroyed rather than getting a second chance at salvation. Jesus never taught such a thing as a second chance at salvation after He comes.

In case you somehow think that these who will suffer "weeping and gnashing of teeth" could refer to people who are saved, read this:

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, 24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Compare this passage to Matthew 25:1-13 (look at the similarity between Luke 13:25-27 and Matt 25:10-12) Notice what happens to those, like the foolish virgins, who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" on the day He comes. He will tell them that He never knew them and He will tell them to depart from Him and they will be "thrust out" from His kingdom. This is what will happen on the day of judgment. They will stand before Him and will be found lacking and they will be cast into the "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels". The foolish virgins will be among the goats (the "cursed") that Jesus describes here:

Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left...41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Notice that the goats ("ye cursed") are cast "into everlasting fire" and "into everlasting punishment". This is clearly a reference to all of those whose names are not written in the book of life.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again, and this is the point that people are missing. I am not talking about escaping the tribulations, but the Great Tribulation.

Define The Great Tribulation as specifically as you can and tell me why we would need to be taken off the earth to escape it.

For me it doesn't matter if I die or I'm raptured. Only few days ago I was resting when my heart started to race and I started to breath rapidly (I have some health history). I thought that was it, I was full of joy that I am going to see the glory of my Lord. I can only gain by dying. So why do I teach about the rapture? Because it will happen one day, and then the unsaved and 'Christians' will be all left behind and then, then the people who falsely thought they were Christians will realise what happened and hopefully repent, they will refuse to bow to Antichrist for which they are killed. Because they are killed for loving Christ more than their life, they still go to Heaven. You of course don't have to know about the pre-tribulation rapture to be raptured, just be born of the Holy Spirit. But as I said there will be many here left behind.

You are sadly mistaken. Scripture does not teach that anyone will get a chance to repent when Christ returns. Please read passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:3-13 and Matthew 24:35-39 and then tell me who exactly will get a chance to repent after He comes.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Any unbiased person can easily see that verse 10 here refers to what will happen when we are "raptured" or caught up to "meet the Lord in the air". Verse 10 clearly refers to the time we are caught up to meet Him and He will then "be glorified in his saints and "admired in all them that believe...in that day".

What else happens on that day? People get a second chance to repent? No! Jesus will be "taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Does that not describe all unbelievers since all unbelievers do not know God and don't obey the gospel? Of course. There is no such thing as this second chance gospel you are preaching. That is false teaching.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This is the futuristic event that is described in Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

The devil will and his demons will be thrown down to the earth so he can devour the Earth as we read in the book of Daniel, that's why God says in Rev 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

This will be when the 4th seal is opened '7 When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, “Come!” 8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.' This is the 70th week of Daniel, the Great Tribulation, a 7 years of the rule of Antichrist, this is when Satan is thrown down to Earth, that's why God says woe to those who are on Earth. This has not happened yet! So we see the 70th week has not happened, it will happen when Satan and demons are kicked out from Heaven.

No, Satan was cast out of heaven long ago when Jesus ascended there.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Notice that John mentions the woman bringing forth the man child who would rule all nations with a rod of iron, which is a reference to the birth of Christ. And then it talks about Him being "caught up unto God, and to his throne" which is an obvious reference to His ascension to heaven after His resurrection.

It was at that time that there was war in heaven with Satan and his angels being cast out. Please think about this. Notice that at that time he was cast out he had previously been accusing believers before God day and night. Do you actually think he was still able to do that after Christ's death, resurrection and ascension? Once Christ was ascended to heaven how was it possible for Satan to still go there to accuse believers when we know that the sins of believers are forgiven and covered by the blood of Christ? What sin can Satan accuse us of when our sins are forgiven? None. So, he clearly has not been able to accuse believers before God for a long time already as their are no uncovered and unforgiven sins for which Satan can accuse us before God.

Romans 8:31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

 

[Timtofly]

How can the church be taken out of the way first when Paul said that His coming and our being gathered to Him happens AFTER the falling away and man of sin are revealed? You are not accepting what Paul said. It is the restraining influence of the Holy Spirit that will be taken away and the church does not need to be removed in order for that to occur.

Do you plan on seeing Satan in the news on TV?