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Pre-Trib Only Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Sojourner1, Apr 10, 2011.

  1. Psalm3704

    Psalm3704 And He shall give you the desires of your heart.

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    It's not good to be stubborn particularly with God's words. Everyone will be humble at some point in their life.

    Read this thread posted from another CF member and watch the video in it.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/adam-and-eve-were-clothed-in-light.7734990/









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    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  2. dfw69

    dfw69 Senior Veteran

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  3. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I am pretrib. I am extremely pretrib for I am convinced God is pretrib.

    However, I don't see the rapture in Revelation until just before the 6th seal. So many people imagine I am prewrath.

    I am also convinced the rapture is not portrayed in Rev. 4:1. Even a beginning reader can see that was John being called up (probably around 95 AD) to see the visions that turned into his awesome book of Revelation.

    Pretribbers, where do you see the rapture?

    To be pretrib, it means the rapture will come BEFORE the "tribulation" or 70th week. Therefore one would assume that pretribbers KNOW where the 70th week is so they can know the rapture will come before it.

    Pretribbers, WHERE do you see the 70th week laid out in Revelation?
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Revelation 3:10. But its timing is not there, other than before "the hour of testing."

    I seriously question most attempts to establish a timeline based on the Revelation. The time orders of some events are indeed shown there. But the major part of the end times timeline comes from careful examination of the fine details of the wording of various Old testament prophecies.

    Just as one example of this, there are numerous details of Ezekiel 38 and 39 that clearly show that this great attack must, of necessity, take place after, not before, the seventieth week, and before, not after, the millennium.
     
  5. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    You've already stated that you've rejected one location, but that doesn't mean everyone else has. Also, I also find it in Revelation 12 with the catching up of the manchild. I know that passage is used by many for a mid-Trib timing, but it seems to me that Revelation contains many overlapping visions from chapters 6 through 19, and also it seems that sign is scheduled to appear this fall on the Feast of Trumpets. The next time it comes around is about 6k years from now.
     
  6. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I believe there is nothing to happen before the rapture, it is imminent . IMHO imminent means any day now. I do believe it will happen before the fit hit the shan simply because of the way God handled Noah and Lot.
     
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  7. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I disagree: with 1 thes. 5 and The book of Revelation I think we can pinpoint the time of the rapture to a moment before the earthquake of the 6th seal. I believe that earthquake will be CAUSED by the dead in Christ rising. I believe that earthquake is Paul's "sudden destruction." I believe Paul tells us this great earthquake will be the start of the Day of the Lord and the start of His wrath, which John agrees with too.

    Again I disagree. I believe John's timeline is perfect once we understand his parentheses.

    I have often thought that Ezekiel 38 was speaking of the Battle of Armageddon. But it is only a guess. Many think it must come before the week begins.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  8. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I think most beginning readers (ones that are brought up in church) would believe the man child was JESUS. After all, the description fits Him perfectly, even up to the devil trying to kill him as a child. Why then would you try to fit the church into a description of Christ's birth? Could it be because of where John put it?
    If you will show me one of your overlaps, I will show you it is not. Don't be led astray by these youtube videos stating that this sign won't come for another 6000 years! In fact, I have found the exact sign as written in 2 BC. (The software will say 1 BC because of no zero year.) Three planets are in her crown area. In the sign coming, it is close to the same, but the planets are stetched out in a line outside of her crown area. Besides, I am convinced there are 12 STARS in her crown, so the planets really don't need to be there to fit what is written.

    I hope we can discuss one or more of your perceived overlaps.
     
  9. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    There is a book out called Earthquake Resurrection .
     
  10. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    I have never read it. It seems more people are catching on!
     
  11. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    I have no idea how some would think it fits Jesus. If that's what beginning readers are believing, then it just means they need to keep at it and dig a bit deeper. Seeing it as Jesus only doesn't fulfill all the context.

    1. It's a future event. The birth and ascent of Jesus was prior to the vision.

    2. Jesus was never raptured, harpazo, taken up suddenly and with violence. His ascension was documented as Him rising into the cloud slowly. He was never snatched away in the contest of a rescue as in Revelation 12.

    3. The Church is the body of Christ. In this context, the church is not a 'she' as in the bride, but a 'he' as in His body. We are one body and He is the Head (Romans 12:4-5, Colossians 1:18).

    4. The child is known as the one who will rule with a rod of iron. Who is that? Rev 19:15 says it's Jesus, and Rev 2:26-27 says it's the people of the Church. Which is it? It's both. We are one body and He is the Head of the body. So the 'one' that will rule is Jesus and His body.

    When the manchild is raptured (harpazo), it is a complete body, the Church (living and dead) and Jesus (as the Head).

    I'm not the least bit interested in conversing about possible years the sign might appear, but a planet was also known as a wandering star and is not out of the scope as being part of the sign.
     
  12. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Interesting take. I never thought about it like this.
     
  13. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    The prophetic scriptures detail five different battles or campaigns that will take place after Messiah comes and before the millennium. Details contained in these prophecies show that Armageddon is the third of these, and the attack of Gog is the last one.
     
  14. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    So which one is the first?
     
  15. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    Good. So can you show us by scripture how you come to that conclusion.
     
  16. iamlamad

    iamlamad Lamad

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    2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
    Who is "she?" She is Israel from which our Messiah came.



    3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


    4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. This is about how Satan, the dragon, used King Herod to attempt to murder Jesus as a child.



    5 And she brought forth a man child, She, Israel, and in particular Mary, brought forth JESUS.

    who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: This is scripture:JESUS will rule.
    and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. I think you are making more of this phrase that need be. We both know Jesus was caught up. Maybe not instantly, for they saw Him go. The point is, HE went back to heaven. So John captured His entire life on earth as a man in one phrase.

    Therefore this is about the birth of Christ. It is written as a parenthesis so NO BEARING in where John is in his narrative.

    Is there a second meaning that we have to dig for? I'll let you decide.

    What I do know, I God SPOKE TO ME about these verses and this chapter. He said, "This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. But I chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. Those first five verses were a 'history lesson' for John."

    I heard His voice: I heard His words. I know it was Jesus speaking to me. Of course this does not mean there cannot be a second meaning to these verses. I know many people imagine there is. I think it is just what Jesus said: it was He showing John what the dragon did when he was born.
     
  17. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    She is also the one the gentile church came out of. Both. This is a corporate body.




    That's not the whole context for this point. You have to add verse 5 as well. The child is caught up (raptured) to God to rescue it from the dragon waiting to devour it. Jesus was not rescued or raptured. This could not be referencing Him.



    Scripture states both Jesus and His people will rule with a rod of iron. Again, it's a corporate body, not just Jesus.

    How am I making it more than it needs to be? It says what it says. You are right, it doesn't match the circumstances around Jesus. I don't know why you are trying to excuse some of it to make it fit. If it doesn't prove the theory, then it's time to move on to another theory rather than manipulating the evidence.
     
  18. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    First great battle:
    When the Lord appears, Jerusalem will be under siege, surrounded by many nations, for we read in Zechariah 14:2, “For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”
    The Lord will deal with this in summary manner. “Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.” (Zechariah 14:3-4) So the Lord’s campaigns start at the Mount of Olives.
    Micah 1:3-5 says, “For behold, the LORD is coming out of His place; He will come down And tread on the high places of the earth. The mountains will melt under Him, And the valleys will split Like wax before the fire, Like waters poured down a steep place. All this is for the transgression of Jacob And for the sins of the house of Israel.” What can it mean that “all this is for the transgression of Jacob And for the sins of the house of Israel.” Isn’t this the Lord’s deliverance of Jerusalem? Jerusalem had been fortified, but this had been done in unbelief. (see Isaiah 22:11-14) The Lord, in His glorious appearing, drives the nations away. But Jerusalem must also be punished. As we read in Jeremiah 9:25-26, “’Behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘that I will punish all who are circumcised with the uncircumcised—Egypt, Judah, Edom, the people of Ammon, Moab, and all who are in the farthest corners, who dwell in the wilderness. For all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.’”Jerusalem has to flee as well, not this time from an army, but from an earthquake. Zechariah 14:4, which we have just noticed, says that the earthquake will “make a very large valley.” The next verse continues with the words “Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the LORD my God will come, And all the saints with You.” (Zechariah 14:5)
    The nations are driven away from Jerusalem.
    Zechariah 14:3 says “Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle.” Of the time when He keeps this promise, the LORD says “Moreover the multitude of your foes Shall be like fine dust, And the multitude of the terrible ones Like chaff that passes away; Yes, it shall be in an instant, suddenly.” (Isaiah 29:5) Again, Isaiah 17:12-13 says, “Woe to the multitude of many people Who make a noise like the roar of the seas, And to the rushing of nations That make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.” Edom is particularly noticed in this regard, for concerning him, (Jeremiah 49:17) the Lord says, “Behold, he shall come up like a lion from the floodplain of the Jordan Against the dwelling place of the strong; But I will suddenly make him run away from her. And who is a chosen man that I may appoint over her? For who is like Me? Who will arraign Me? And who is that shepherd Who will withstand Me?” (verse 19)
    Joel 3:1-2 says these nations will not come against Jerusalem of their own accord. They will be brought there by the Lord. But this passage also tells us where He will force them as they flee. “For behold, in those days and at that time, When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land.” He will “enter into judgment with them” in “the Valley of Jehoshaphat.”
    Where is this “Valley of Jehoshaphat?” Scholars are not certain. But there are several common theories. Tradition (which is seldom reliable) identifies it with the Kidron valley. But this location does not fit some of the details we shall shortly examine. Some think it is the Valley of the son of Hinnom, on the opposite side of Jerusalem, because we are twice told that this valley will no more be called by that name, but will be called the “Valley of Slaughter.” (Jeremiah 7:32 and 19:6) But a careful reading of these passages shows that they do not refer to a judgment of the gentile nations, but of Judah.
    Scholars of today do not know of any valley that was ever called the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” but there is a valley that could very appropriately be called by this name. In 2 Chronicles 20, “some came and told Jehoshaphat, saying, ‘A great multitude is coming against you from beyond the sea, from Syria; and they are in Hazazon Tamar’ (which is En Gedi).” (verse 2) Jehoshaphat called all Judah to fast and pray, and the Lord answered “Do not be afraid nor dismayed because of this great multitude, for the battle is not yours, but God's. Tomorrow go down against them. They will surely come up by the Ascent of Ziz, and you will find them at the end of the brook before the Wilderness of Jeruel. You will not need to fight in this battle. Position yourselves, stand still and see the salvation of the LORD, who is with you, O Judah and Jerusalem!” (verses 15-17)
    Believing this promise, the people “rose early in the morning and went out into the Wilderness of Tekoa.” (verse 20) And “the LORD set ambushes against the people of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir, who had come against Judah; and they were defeated. For the people of Ammon and Moab stood up against the inhabitants of Mount Seir to utterly kill and destroy them. And when they had made an end of the inhabitants of Seir, they helped to destroy one another. So when Judah came to a place overlooking the wilderness, they looked toward the multitude; and there were their dead bodies, fallen on the earth. No one had escaped.” (verses 22-24) There was so much spoil it took three days to gather it. “And on the fourth day they assembled in the Valley of Berachah, for there they blessed the LO RD; therefore the name of that place was called The Valley of Berachah until this day.” (verse 26) (The name of this valley, Berachah is transliterated from the Hebrew word berakah, meaning blessing, word number 1293 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary).
    As noted above, the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” would be a most appropriate name for the place where this happened. To locate this valley, we first need to locate the places named. “En Gedi,” the place where the invading army was encamped, is near the center of the western shore of the Dead Sea. The “Ascent of Ziz” is a ravine that rises from a lower wilderness called the “Wilderness of Jeruel” to an upper wilderness called the “Wilderness of Tekoa.” (Actually, there are two ravines that fit this description, but most scholars think the northern one is the Biblical “Ascent of Ziz.”) This upper wilderness is not the top of the mountain, but only a plateau that forms a broad valley. This valley is almost certainly where the invading army was destroyed, and is believed to be the Biblical “Valley of Berachah.” This valley runs generally east to west, from the cliffs above Ziz (about six miles north of En Gedi) to about nine miles south of Jerusalem. The prophetic name of the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” almost certainly refers to this valley.
    The northern army is destroyed.
    Isaiah 10:24-25 explicitly says that the indignation against Judah will cease, as will God’s anger, in the destruction of the Assyrian. This is when the deliverance of Judah begins. In Joel 2:20 the Lord declares “But I will remove far from you the northern army, And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land, With his face toward the eastern sea And his back toward the western sea; His stench will come up, And his foul odor will rise, Because he has done monstrous things.” The valley we have been discussing runs through “a barren and desolate land.” An army driven away from Jerusalem and fleeing down this valley would have its “face toward the eastern sea” and its “back toward the western sea.” Thus we see that this valley fits both the name “the Valley of Jehoshaphat,” and also the description of where the Lord will deal with “the northern army.”
    We can now understand why the Kidron valley does not fit this description. It fails on several counts. First, “the northern army” will be “removed far from” Jerusalem. The Kidron valley begins just under the walls of Jerusalem. An army driven into this valley would not be “far from” Jerusalem. Second, the Hebrew word translated valley in both the “valley of Berachah” and the “valley of Jehoshaphat” is ‘emeq. (word number 6010 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This is also the Hebrew word used in the “valley of decision,” which Joel uses to describe the “valley of Jehoshaphat.” (Joel 3:14) This word indicates a broad valley, (as in our English word vale) not a narrow one. The Hebrew word translated brook in each place where the “Brook Kidron” is mentioned is nachal. (word number 5158 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This word means either a brook or a narrow valley. This is very suitable, for the Kidron valley is indeed narrow.
    This reason applies even more strongly to the “Valley of the son of Hinnom.” The Hebrew word used for this valley is gay’. (word number 1516 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This Hebrew word means a gorge, that is, a valley even narrower than a nachal.
    A final reason, based on logic rather than the Biblical description, is that the Kidron valley is between the Mount of Olives, where the Lord will appear, and Jerusalem. Unless the besieging army was actually on the Mount of Olives, it would have to run toward the Lord, rather than away from Him, to get into the Kidron valley. But we remember that the Mount of Olives will split when the Lord’s feet touch it, half of it moving toward the south and half toward the north. (Zechariah 14:4) If the army was actually on the mountain as it split, it would seem that such a violent earthquake would destroy it so completely it would be unable to flee.
    This geographical digression has been made because knowing the locations of these events helps in understanding them. While the reasons for concluding that the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” is the “Valley of Berachah” seem very strong, this is only an interpretation of scripture. Since this is only an interpretation, it may not be correct. But the events that will take place in this valley are not based on interpretation. These are not things that might happen, but things that will most certainly happen. For “The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, ‘Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand: That I will break the Assyrian in My land, And on My mountains tread him underfoot. Then his yoke shall be removed from them, And his burden removed from their shoulders. This is the purpose that is purposed against the whole earth, And this is the hand that is stretched out over all the nations. For the LORD of hosts has purposed, And who will annul it? His hand is stretched out, And who will turn it back?’” (Isaiah 14:24-27)
    The king of Assyria will escape at this time, for we read in Isaiah 31:8-9 that “‘Assyria shall fall by a sword not of man, And a sword not of mankind shall devour him. But he shall flee from the sword, And his young men shall become forced labor. He shall cross over to his stronghold for fear, And his princes shall be afraid of the banner,’ Says the LORD, Whose fire is in Zion And whose furnace is in Jerusalem.”
    The nations are destroyed.
    But not only is “the northern army” destroyed in this valley. Though men make much more of Armageddon, and indeed that will be a great battle, the “Valley of Jehoshaphat” is “the valley of decision.”
    “Proclaim this among the nations: ‘Prepare for war! Wake up the mighty men, Let all the men of war draw near, Let them come up. Beat your plowshares into swords And your pruning hooks into spears; Let the weak say, “I am strong.”’ Assemble and come, all you nations, And gather together all around. Cause Your mighty ones to go down there, O LORD. ‘Let the nations be wakened, and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, go down; For the winepress is full, The vats overflow; For their wickedness is great.’ Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! For the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.” (Joel 3:9-14)
    We should notice that this is not the great judgment of the nations described in Matthew 25:31-46. At that judgment there will be reward as well as punishment. Here, there is no blessing, but only unsparing destruction of the enemies of God’s chosen people.
     
  19. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Second great battle (or actually campaign,) and return:


    Edom is destroyed.
    In the mad flight of the nations, Edom appears to be pushed by the armies behind them, for we read in Obadiah 7 that “All the men in your confederacy Shall force you to the border; The men at peace with you Shall deceive you and prevail against you. Those who eat your bread shall lay a trap for you. No one is aware of it.” (The wording of the New King James translation, which we are using, along with numerous others, implies that this will be an intentional plot by Edom’s confederates. But this is not necessarily the meaning of this passage, as we see in Young’s Literal Translation, by the Dr. Young of Young’s Concordance fame: “Unto the border sent thee have all thine allies, Forgotten thee, prevailed over thee, have thy friends, Thy bread they make a snare under thee, There is no understanding in him!” This seems to imply carelessness or recklessness, as would occur in a state of panic, rather than intent.) Edom apparently continues to flee through the Valley of Jehoshaphat, where the rest of the armies will be destroyed, down the Ascent of Ziz, and along the shore of the Dead sea toward their homeland. Edom reaches home, but not safety, for Jeremiah 49:8 says, “Flee, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan! For I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, The time that I will punish him.”
    The Lord prophesied “concerning Edom” (Obadiah 1) “For violence against your brother Jacob, Shame shall cover you, And you shall be cut off forever.” (verse 10) Verse 15 concludes this section with the words, “For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.”
    Edom’s previous crimes against Judah, both during Daniel’s seventeenth week and during preceding thousands of years, are the reason for the terrible judgment that now falls on this land. Again, Amos 1:11 says “Thus says the LORD: ‘For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment, Because he pursued his brother with the sword, And cast off all pity; His anger tore perpetually, And he kept his wrath forever.’” The next verse reads, “But I will send a fire upon Teman, Which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.”
    Isaiah and Jeremiah describe this judgment in detail.
    “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:5-10)
    “Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Edom, And His purposes that He has proposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He shall make their dwelling places desolate with them. The earth shakes at the noise of their fall; At the cry its noise is heard at the Red Sea. Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, And spread His wings over Bozrah; The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.” (Jeremiah 49:20-22)
    So this judgment begins at Bozrah, about thirty miles south of the Dead Sea. From there it goes some twenty five miles south to Teman, and from there to within hearing of the Red Sea. Habakkuk 3:3 mentions His coming from Mount Paran, which is approximately one hundred and sixty miles southeast of Teman, and is on the shore of the Red Sea. This entire area will receive the same judgment as Sodom and Gomorrah.
    God returns from destroying Edom.
    “Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?; ‘I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.’ Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? ‘I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come. I looked, but there was no one to help, And I wondered That there was no one to uphold; Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury, it sustained Me. I have trodden down the peoples in My anger, Made them drunk in My fury, And brought down their strength to the earth.’” (Isaiah 63:1-6)
    But the work is now only well started, “For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies.” (Isaiah 34:2) God returns to Jerusalem after destroying Edom. But when He returns, it is not yet in blessing. It is still in judgment, for we read in Habakkuk 3:3-6 that “God came from Teman, The Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, And the earth was full of His praise. His brightness was like the light; He had rays flashing from His hand, And there His power was hidden. Before Him went pestilence, And fever followed at His feet. He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations. And the everlasting mountains were scattered, The perpetual hills bowed. His ways are everlasting.”
    The Lord comes to His Temple.
    In Malachi 3:1-3 we read, “‘And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,’ Says the LORD of hosts. ‘But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.’” But we remember that the righteous had been cast out three and a half years earlier. (see page 132) All who are left are wicked. This coming is not deliverance, but a terror, as we read in Isaiah 66:6. “The sound of noise from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, Who fully repays His enemies!”
     
  20. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    Third great battle, and aftermath:


    Edom is destroyed.
    In the mad flight of the nations, Edom appears to be pushed by the armies behind them, for we read in Obadiah 7 that “All the men in your confederacy Shall force you to the border; The men at peace with you Shall deceive you and prevail against you. Those who eat your bread shall lay a trap for you. No one is aware of it.” (The wording of the New King James translation, which we are using, along with numerous others, implies that this will be an intentional plot by Edom’s confederates. But this is not necessarily the meaning of this passage, as we see in Young’s Literal Translation, by the Dr. Young of Young’s Concordance fame: “Unto the border sent thee have all thine allies, Forgotten thee, prevailed over thee, have thy friends, Thy bread they make a snare under thee, There is no understanding in him!” This seems to imply carelessness or recklessness, as would occur in a state of panic, rather than intent.) Edom apparently continues to flee through the Valley of Jehoshaphat, where the rest of the armies will be destroyed, down the Ascent of Ziz, and along the shore of the Dead sea toward their homeland. Edom reaches home, but not safety, for Jeremiah 49:8 says, “Flee, turn back, dwell in the depths, O inhabitants of Dedan! For I will bring the calamity of Esau upon him, The time that I will punish him.”
    The Lord prophesied “concerning Edom” (Obadiah 1) “For violence against your brother Jacob, Shame shall cover you, And you shall be cut off forever.” (verse 10) Verse 15 concludes this section with the words, “For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head.”
    Edom’s previous crimes against Judah, both during Daniel’s seventeenth week and during preceding thousands of years, are the reason for the terrible judgment that now falls on this land. Again, Amos 1:11 says “Thus says the LORD: ‘For three transgressions of Edom, and for four, I will not turn away its punishment, Because he pursued his brother with the sword, And cast off all pity; His anger tore perpetually, And he kept his wrath forever.’” The next verse reads, “But I will send a fire upon Teman, Which shall devour the palaces of Bozrah.”
    Isaiah and Jeremiah describe this judgment in detail.
    “For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness. For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:5-10)
    “Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD that He has taken against Edom, And His purposes that He has proposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out; Surely He shall make their dwelling places desolate with them. The earth shakes at the noise of their fall; At the cry its noise is heard at the Red Sea. Behold, He shall come up and fly like the eagle, And spread His wings over Bozrah; The heart of the mighty men of Edom in that day shall be Like the heart of a woman in birth pangs.” (Jeremiah 49:20-22)
    So this judgment begins at Bozrah, about thirty miles south of the Dead Sea. From there it goes some twenty five miles south to Teman, and from there to within hearing of the Red Sea. Habakkuk 3:3 mentions His coming from Mount Paran, which is approximately one hundred and sixty miles southeast of Teman, and is on the shore of the Red Sea. This entire area will receive the same judgment as Sodom and Gomorrah.
    God returns from destroying Edom.
    “Who is this who comes from Edom, With dyed garments from Bozrah, This One who is glorious in His apparel, Traveling in the greatness of His strength?; ‘I who speak in righteousness, mighty to save.’ Why is Your apparel red, And Your garments like one who treads in the winepress? ‘I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me. For I have trodden them in My anger, And trampled them in My fury; Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments, And I have stained all My robes. For the day of vengeance is in My heart, And the year of My redeemed has come. I looked, but there was no one to help, And I wondered That there was no one to uphold; Therefore My own arm brought salvation for Me; And My own fury, it sustained Me. I have trodden down the peoples in My anger, Made them drunk in My fury, And brought down their strength to the earth.’” (Isaiah 63:1-6)
    But the work is now only well started, “For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies.” (Isaiah 34:2) God returns to Jerusalem after destroying Edom. But when He returns, it is not yet in blessing. It is still in judgment, for we read in Habakkuk 3:3-6 that “God came from Teman, The Holy One from Mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, And the earth was full of His praise. His brightness was like the light; He had rays flashing from His hand, And there His power was hidden. Before Him went pestilence, And fever followed at His feet. He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations. And the everlasting mountains were scattered, The perpetual hills bowed. His ways are everlasting.”
    The Lord comes to His Temple.
    In Malachi 3:1-3 we read, “‘And the Lord, whom you seek, Will suddenly come to His temple, Even the Messenger of the covenant, In whom you delight. Behold, He is coming,’ Says the LORD of hosts. ‘But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderer's soap. He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness.’” But we remember that the righteous had been cast out three and a half years earlier. (see page 132) All who are left are wicked. This coming is not deliverance, but a terror, as we read in Isaiah 66:6. “The sound of noise from the city! A voice from the temple! The voice of the LORD, Who fully repays His enemies!”
    Armageddon
    Such events could not fail to get the world’s attention. “The kings of the earth and of the whole world” respond to this new threat. (We should note in passing that this expression “the kings of the earth and of the whole world” shows that in Bible prophecy the terms “the earth” and “the whole world” have different meanings.) “The kings from the east” are particularly noticed. The Euphrates River is dried up so they can cross it. In light of this detail, it is interesting to note that a dam has now been built on the Euphrates River, so this has become possible by mere human means.
    “Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. ‘Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.’ And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.” (Revelation 16:12-16)
    Armageddon is on the edge of the plain of Megiddo, about 55 miles north of Jerusalem. Some call it the “valley of Armageddon,” but it is not so called in scripture. There is a reference to the “Valley of Megiddo” in 2 Chronicles 35:22 and in some translations of Zechariah 12:11. But it is important to realize that the Hebrew word translated valley in these places is distinctly different from the Hebrew word used for the “valley of Jehoshaphat.” Megiddo is a biq'ah. (word number 1237 in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary) This indicates a wide level valley between mountains, or a plain. This Hebrew word is also used for Megiddo in Zechariah 12:11, where our translation renders it as a “plain,” rather than a valley. We have already noticed that the “valley of Jehoshaphat” is an ‘emeq, that is, a vale. This plainly shows that these are different valleys.
    Thus we understand that the prophesied judgment in the “valley of Jehoshaphat” is not just another description of the battle of Armageddon.
    Demons go out performing signs, to gather all the nations. (Revelation 16:13-14) The ten kings allied with the Beast are particularly noticed. “The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with the beast. These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority to the beast. These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful.” (Revelation 17:12-14)
    But it is not only “the kings of the earth” that prepare for this battle. The Lord makes preparations of his own. “Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, ‘Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.’” (Revelation 19:17-18)
    The beast and the false prophet captured and cast into the lake of fire
    There can only be one outcome in such an uneven contest. “And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.” (Revelation 19:19-21)
    The survivors from Armageddon sent to call all Israel home.
    This is explicitly stated in Isaiah 66:18-20, where the Lord says, “‘I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,’ says the LORD, ‘as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.’”
    We see this again in Jeremiah 16:14-16, where we read; “‘Therefore behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that it shall no more be said, “The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,” but, “The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.”’ For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers. ‘Behold, I will send for many fishermen,’ says the LORD, ‘and they shall fish them; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks.’”
    This is celebrated in Isaiah 52:7. “How beautiful upon the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who proclaims peace, Who brings glad tidings of good things, Who proclaims salvation, Who says to Zion, ‘Your God reigns!’” It is also celebrated in the fourth book of the Psalms. Psalm 93:1, 96:10, 97:1, and 99:1 announce the wondrous news that “The Lord reigns.” Psalm 95:2 and 100:2 sound the call to “come before His presence” and Psalm 96:8 invites them to “come into His courts.”
    All Israel brought back to the land
    The return of all Israel to their land is one of the great themes of prophecy, and is found in too many places to cite them all. A typical one is Jeremiah 31:7-9:
    “Sing with gladness for Jacob, And shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise, and say, ‘O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel!’ Behold, I will bring them from the north country, And gather them from the ends of the earth, Among them the blind and the lame, The woman with child And the one who labors with child, together; A great throng shall return there. They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn.”
    This is celebrated in the fifth book of the Psalms:
    “When the LORD brought back the captivity of Zion, We were like those who dream. Then our mouth was filled with laughter, And our tongue with singing. Then they said among the nations, ‘The LORD has done great things for them.’ The LORD has done great things for us, And we are glad.” (Psalm 126:1-3)
    Unlike the previous return of Judah to her land, this is not a partial return. All Israel will be gathered. We see this in Ezekiel 36:10, where the Lord tells the “mountains of Israel” (verse 8) that He “will multiply men upon you, all the house of Israel, all of it; and the cities shall be inhabited and the ruins rebuilt.” (The Hebrew word for all, kol (word number 3605 in Strong’s Hebrew dictionary), does not always mean the sum total of each and every member of a group. But the fact that the word all is repeated in this statement makes it plain that this is the meaning intended here.) We see it again in Micah 2:12, where the Lord says “I will surely assemble all of you, O Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel; I will put them together like sheep of the fold, Like a flock in the midst of their pasture; They shall make a loud noise because of so many people.”
    The nations bring the children of Israel home.
    “They shall bring your sons in their arms, And your daughters shall be carried on their shoulders; Kings shall be your foster fathers, And their queens your nursing mothers; They shall bow down to you with their faces to the earth, And lick up the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD, For they shall not be ashamed who wait for Me.” (Isaiah 49:22-23)
    The rebels purged from among Israel.
    But many of the children of Israel are rebels. To such, the Lord’s appearing does not mean blessing, but judgment. These will be removed from among the people.
    “‘As I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘surely with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out, I will rule over you. I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you,’ says the Lord GOD. ‘I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.’” (Ezekiel 20:33-38)
    “In that day you shall not be shamed for any of your deeds In which you transgress against Me; For then I will take away from your midst Those who rejoice in your pride, And you shall no longer be haughty In My holy mountain. I will leave in your midst A meek and humble people, And they shall trust in the name of the LORD.” (Zephaniah 3:11-12)
    Israel repents of their rejection of Jesus as their Messiah.
    When Israel finally sees their long awaited messiah, “one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ (Zechariah 13:6 - I am disappointed that the New King James translation, which we are using, has joined a number of other modern translations in abandoning the apparent reference to our Lord’s crucifixion in the King James reading, “What are these wounds in thine hands?”) The result is that “In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.” (Zechariah 12:11-14)
    Again, we read, “Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7) “And so all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26)
    This is how “it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy; everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem. When the Lord has washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and purged the blood of Jerusalem from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning.” (Isaiah 4:3-4)
    Ephraim and Judah reunited
    This is detailed in Ezekiel 37, in which the Lord says: “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.” (Ezekiel 37:16-17) The Lord then told Ezekiel that when the children of his people asked him what this meant, he should answer them that “the Lord GOD” says: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.” (Ezekiel 37:21-22)
    Isaiah also speaks of this, saying that the Lord “will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. Also the envy of Ephraim shall depart, And the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, And Judah shall not harass Ephraim.” (Isaiah 11:12-13)
    This is celebrated in the fifth book of the Psalms:
    “Behold, how good and how pleasant it is For brethren to dwell together in unity! It is like the precious oil upon the head, Running down on the beard, The beard of Aaron, Running down on the edge of his garments. It is like the dew of Hermon, Descending upon the mountains of Zion; For there the LORD commanded the blessing; Life forevermore.” (Psalm 133:1-3)
     
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