Pre-tribulation Rapture Believers Safe House

[Sojourner1]

Clinton: Obama to reveal peace plan soon

The United States plans a new push to promote comprehensive Arab-Israeli peace, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said on Tuesday, suggesting a stronger US hand in trying to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

President Barack Obama will lay out US policy toward the Middle East and North Africa in the coming weeks, Clinton told Arab and US policy makers in a speech that placed particular emphasis on Israeli-Palestinian peace.

On Tuesday night Israeli officials estimated that efforts to prevent UN support of a unilateral declaration of Palestinian statehood would prove futile ahead of a September vote on the matter.

An Israeli official said: "Obama wants a Palestinian state and although the US is not interested in a unilateral declaration, it would be hard for it to stand alone in the General Assembly and vote against it."

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4056165,00.html

 

[Sojourner1]

Emerging economies face watershed moment at summit

Drudge has this title for the article: RISE OF NEW WORLD POWER [WITHOUT USA]

SANYA, China (AP) -- The leaders of the world's largest emerging economies gather this week in southern China for what could be a watershed moment in their quest for a bigger say in the global financial architecture.

Thursday's summit comes at a crucial moment for the expanded five-member bloc known as the BRICS, which groups Brazil, Russia, India, China, and, for the first time, South Africa.

The five countries are loosely joined by their common status as major fast-growing economies that have been traditionally underrepresented in world economic bodies, such as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

All broadly support free trade and oppose protectionism, although China in particular has been accused of erecting barriers to foreign competition. In foreign affairs, they tend toward nonintervention and oppose the use of force: Of the five, only South Africa voted in favor of the Libyan no-fly zone.

Emerging economies face watershed moment at summit - Yahoo! Finance

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Truth Files Matthew 25:1-13 is a parable reflecting His separation of His church at the "rapture"

This separation will be between believers and those who only profess to be .... He knows the difference

This passage of scripture should be read in conjunction with Revelation 3:10 and 3:15-19

He tells the believers who keep the truth that He will keep them from His trial and judgment of an unbelieving earth .... the door is open for these to come in

Then He is warning those who profess only that they will be left out [these will not be included in His "harpazo" action] and that they must repent during the coming tribulation

Notice that the door is shut [which is currently open to believers], and those who profess only will be kept from entering

He will still offer His salvation during the tribulation period, but He will then be on the other side of the door ..... "knocking"

OK, I believe this. But, what is meant by the oil? I have read and studied this passage for years. I have determined that the oil is the Holy Spirit. All of the virgins had oil, but the foolish ones oil ran out and their lamps were going out. It does not say the foolish ones had no oil to begin with. I know we are admonished to be filled with the Holy Spirit
Eph. 5:18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Is this an admonishment to be filed to overflowing so we will have extra on the side? That is what I take it t mean. The Foolish ones got the initial fill, but got no refill, right?

 

[Truth Files]

Your are correct about the oil symbolizing the infilling of the Lord’s holy spirit and the born again experience

If you read Matthew 25:1-13 carefully you will discover that the foolish never had any oil to begin with .... they have lamps [the light is not of the Lord], but no oil

These are not saved and are the example of people who approach a Christian experience, may join a church, and may even think that they are Christians, but they don’t go far enough to become serious about and seek their real need

The “churches” are full of them today; they go through the motions, embrace and like the social relationships, but they are not saved

I would guess that you even know some who play the game

In today’s world there are many religious organizations whose leaders and teachers soft sell Christianity and mix it with all sorts of tradition, psycho-babble, and things of the world [human philosophy and values], and this produces the environment of the “broad road” rather than the “narrow road” that the Lord walks on

There are also literally 1000s of professing Christian organizations who teach false doctrines and they mislead their memberships to the extent of keeping them from their own salvation

When the Lord separates the true from the false, those who profess but are not saved will be caught off guard and He will reject them just as He says He will; and He must do this

They will then be told to go and buy from those who have entertained and mislead them and hopefully this will shock them enough that they will turn to Him during His coming time of judgment against an unbelieving world

 

[Truth Files]

The Lord speaks to the church in the following verses .... first His evaluation of the present [the things that "are"] condition of the church on the earth in Revelation 1, 2 and 3 [these same conditions exist to this very day] .... and then His call to immortalize the true believers just before He brings His hour of trial upon an unbelieving world [the things that shall be "hereafter" .... at the time of the end].

First Trumpet Sounding For The Church

Revelation
1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet

1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea

1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter [at the end of this present age]

4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Last Trumpet Sounding For The Church

Revelation
18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

1Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Corinthians
15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation confirms that the gathering noted in 2Thessalonians 2:1 is the Lord's call to immortalize the believer just before His coming hour of trial. Today's church is seen with Him dwelling heaven, in His temple, and around the throne just before, during, and at the closing of the tribulation period. [Revelation 3:10; 4:4; 5:5-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:14; 19:1-14; 20;4 (those on thrones)]

There are ten significant trumpet voices mentioned in the New Testament regarding the Lord's second coming. The trumpet voice sound that the Lord uses is described as the voice of the archangel and trumpet of God. This is a unique voice that sounds like a trumpet and at the same time contains audible speech that can be understood.

Two of these involve the Lord's communication to the church:

The first one [the first trumpet for the church] is heard by John in Revelation 1:10 [encounter with the Lord giving the first formal message to the church and His evaluation of the same] and involves his recording of the things he has "seen" and that "are" related to the church [Revelation 2 and 3]. These conditions still exist today.

The second one [the last for the church] is mentioned three times and this one marks the end of the church age [the things "that are"] and the beginning of the things that "shall be" at the time of the end.

This last trumpet voice for the church of the Lord speaking is related to John's spirit's departure in the first century. He is transported to heaven in advance and into the future to view the things that "shall be hereafter" during the time of the end.

Paul reveals this same trumpet in 1Corinthians 15:51-52 indicating the immortalization of both sleeping and living believers, and for the same event in 1Thessalonians 4:16-18.

The next seven trumpet voices are those that precede judgments as part of the Lord's hour [time] of trial against an unbelieving world and all are recorded in Revelation:

Six of these involve major destruction on the earth in conjunction with the arrival of satan, his angelic agents, myriads of other fallen angels, and those humans who will worship him as a god. [Revelation 8:1-2]

The seventh trumpet voice of the set of seven will sound just before the end of the second half of the 2,520 day tribulation period [the 70th week decreed for Israel] and the next 30 days will incorporate the Lord's wrath against satan, his angelic agents, and his human followers [Revelation 10:7; 11:15; 16:1-16]. The Lord will destroy his kingdom terminating at Armageddon.

The next and last trumpet voice of the set of ten [the great trumpet] will occur just after the tribulation of those days:

This is a gathering by the Lord's angelics of the mortal survivors of the tribulation period .... there is no resurrection related to this trumpet and it will sound for the Lord's gathering of His "elect" [first those of national Israel ... His "brethren"]. [Isaiah 11:11-12; 27:12-13; 43:5-6; Ezekiel 20:33-42; Matthew 24:29-31]

He will then gather all survivors of the other "nations" and will separate them for entrance into His coming millennial kingdom on the earth. [Matthew 25:31-46; Micah 4; Zechariah 14:16-21; Revelation 20:1-3]

Those found believing [the sheep] will enter and populate His millennial kingdom on the earth as mortals .... those found in unbelief [the goats] will not. [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

 

[Biblewriter]

Amazing - Dispensationalists have their own forum and no one hardly writes over there anymore. If the moderators were doing their jobs you wouldn't need these sub forums in the Eschatology forum.

You, as a post tribber, are not supposed to post here.

 

[7he4uthor]

salvation before trib is the only formula that makes sense ...
being saved from the great tribulation.

armstrong wrote of the british israelites and the tribes of jacob
the tribulation [i have been told] is all about jacob's wandering from god

messiah told his agents to call the lost tribes of israel/jacob back to the fold

the majority of [false?] christian churches teach pagan holidays and sabbaths according to the torah, teaching goddess worship

now i have read recently that corporate elite have built anti-gravity saucers and made a list of ''chosen ones'' to leave the earth while nuclear war is unleashed ... only to return afterwards to declare they are gods and be worshppied.

this scenario is related in a series called ''left behind''
before you say this is ''whacky'' i want to say my dad is a retired physacist in aero-space technology and his first job was with avro
who built canada's first flying saucer in the 1950s

this technology was copied from nazis who worked on it much earlier
and tesla who had it before that.

it sounds very much like the biblical rapture dont you think ?

 

[Truth Files]

"it sounds very much like the biblical rapture dont you think ?"

>What does?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Fif anyone watch 2012? I know the world will not end like that for it is written
2Pet.3:7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

But if you saw it, remember how the elite had built these big boats because they knew something bad was going to happen, and they thought they could escape? Some did escape, but some did not. They ran into a bad case of Murphy's Law. The elite may try to escape, but God has something for them..

 

[Choose Wisely]

Has anyone studied the Jewish feasts and how these were (and will be) fulfilled by Christ? It's really very interesting. If you know of a good book about this please let me know. Here is a brief article about it: How did Jesus fulfill the meanings of the Jewish feasts?

Been a while since I looked at them. Most teachings I have heard believe that Pentecost has been fulfilled when the Holy Spirit was given to the church. Also many believe that the Rapture of the church will occur on the Feast of Trumpets because of the last trump statement by Paul.

Pentecost is actually an unfulfilled feast. It is a harvest feast. The Rapture of the church is likely to occur on Pentecost.....that's why Jesus said summer is near.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

I just wanted to say that I'm very thankful for this thread. Just saying...

 

[hisbeloved67]

I would suggest that both Psalms 83 and Ezekiel are about the battle of Armageddon and not a war before or during the 70th week decreed for Israel [the same as the tribulation period]

The Islamic states in the Middle East will be confederated by the little horn of Daniel's visions, both those ad
jacent to Israel [Psalms 83] and those located in the outer extents of the middle East [Ezekiel 38]

These will successfully invade Israel at the Middle of the 70th week and occupy Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount and hold for 42 months

Then the Lord will come and destroy them at Armageddon

If anyone wants further explanation including scriptural support I will answer

Hello there truth files,I am new here and i am not looking to contradict nor debate,I just love prophecy and love brainstorming with someone about it.

I used to think the same thing about this as you, but now,to me it looks as if these are two different battles.

First of all notice that in Ezekiel 38 we see that Israel is the one being attacked,and is at peace at rest and without walls.plus the fact that the players are not the same as in Psalms 83.

Now notice that in Psalms 83 all of Israels close Arab neighbors
are involved, the modern day names for these countries are;Jordon,Lebanon,Syria,Iran, the Gaza strip,the Palestinians and some from Iraq being those who helped the children of Lot.

Notice Israel is not at peace or at rest here by the language starting in
verse 2 For,lo,thine enemies make a tumult;and they that hate the have lifted up the head 4 they have said come,and let us cut them off from being a nation.BTW the leader of Iran just a few short years ago made the above underlined statement.

Then in verse 9 we see that God is being asked to do unto them as unto the Midianites;and Sisera and Jabin at the brook of Kison.
which perished at Endor they becames as dung on the earth.

make their nobles like oreb,and like zeeb,all their princes as zebah and zalmunna.

It appears what happened to them is what is going to happen to the group to come against Israel.

you can read about what happened starting Judges chap. 4 through to 7

when you read this you will notice that God used Deborah and Gideon and his armies to completely destroy and kill them.

Then after all of this is accomplished,Israel will start looking like the Israel in Ezkiel 38, in fact I believe that Psalms 83 makes ezkiel 38 possible ,and it stands to reason that when the Arabs are destroyed in Psalms,that Israel's territory will be increased,which is like bait for the spoil that the Ezkiel 38 bunch comes for.

I do however wonder that if Isaiah 17 comes to pass during the psalms 83 massacre, since Isaiah involves Damscus being made a ruinous heap,which after all is still the capital of Syria today.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Hello there truth files,I am new here and i am not looking to contradict nor debate,I just love prophecy and love brainstorming with someone about it.

I used to think the same thing about this as you, but now,to me it looks as if these are two different battles.

First of all notice that in Ezekiel 38 we see that Israel is the one being attacked,and is at peace at rest and without walls.plus the fact that the players are not the same as in Psalms 83.

Now notice that in Psalms 83 all of Israels close Arab neighbors
are involved, the modern day names for these countries are;Jordon,Lebanon,Syria,Iran, the Gaza strip,the Palestinians and some from Iraq being those who helped the children of Lot.

Notice Israel is not at peace or at rest here by the language starting in
verse 2 For,lo,thine enemies make a tumult;and they that hate the have lifted up the head 4 they have said come,and let us cut them off from being a nation.BTW the leader of Iran just a few short years ago made the above underlined statement.

Then in verse 9 we see that God is being asked to do unto them as unto the Midianites;and Sisera and Jabin at the brook of Kison.
which perished at Endor they becames as dung on the earth.

make their nobles like oreb,and like zeeb,all their princes as zebah and zalmunna.

It appears what happened to them is what is going to happen to the group to come against Israel.

you can read about what happened starting Judges chap. 4 through to 7

when you read this you will notice that God used Deborah and Gideon and his armies to completely destroy and kill them.

Then after all of this is accomplished,Israel will start looking like the Israel in Ezkiel 38, in fact I believe that Psalms 83 makes ezkiel 38 possible ,and it stands to reason that when the Arabs are destroyed in Psalms,that Israel's territory will be increased,which is like bait for the spoil that the Ezkiel 38 bunch comes for.

I do however wonder that if Isaiah 17 comes to pass during the psalms 83 massacre, since Isaiah involves Damscus being made a ruinous heap,which after all is still the capital of Syria today.

What leads you to believe that Psalms 83 didn't happen in 1967?

 

[hisbeloved67]

What leads you to believe that Psalms 83 didn't happen in 1967?

I used to wonder if 1967 fullfilled the prophecy too, but if you read the scriptures in Judges that show what will happen when Psalms 83 is fulfilled, you will see that the 6 day war in 1967 looks like childs play compared. then in verse 17 of Psalms 83 just the word "perish" indicates that these places will no longer exist or at least not be the cause of trouble for Israel again but we know that there has been trouble since 1967.

 

[hisbeloved67]

OK, I believe this. But, what is meant by the oil? I have read and studied this passage for years. I have determined that the oil is the Holy Spirit. All of the virgins had oil, but the foolish ones oil ran out and their lamps were going out. It does not say the foolish ones had no oil to begin with. I know we are admonished to be filled with the Holy Spirit
Eph. 5:18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Is this an admonishment to be filed to overflowing so we will have extra on the side? That is what I take it t mean. The Foolish ones got the initial fill, but got no refill, right?

you hit the nail perfectly on the head there handmaid,you have more understanding than you realize

 

[Matthew-59]

Neat thread here.

 

[Matthew-59]

Got a question to thow into the mix here....

I was thinking about the rapture the other day and thought of something that has always made me wonder... Just how long is a generation?

In Luke 21:32 and Matt. 24:34 it says: "this generation will in no wise pass away before all things be fulfilled". Well, how long is a generation? Jack Van Impe seems to think it's about 52 years, but I don't know if he's right. The bible says we have 70 years...maybe 80 if our health holds out. So, let's do a little math shall we? Take 1948 (assuming the prophetic time clock got started then, or at least wound up), and add 70 years to that. One comes up with 2018. For a pretrib view, one has to subtract the 7 years of trib from that date and comes up with 2011 for the rapture. Of course, I'm hoping this is right! Amen?!?! But, if the count-down began in 1967 at the end of the 6 day war when Jerusalem was captured from the gentiles and placed back in the possession of the Jewish nation, then perhaps we must add the 70 years from that date. If so, one comes up with 2037... minus the trib 7 again, and it brings us to 2030. That's about 19 years away yet. Could it be possible we have that much time left here?? ...another 19 years? Sheesh! I hope not! But is there any proof that this latter view is incorrect? If you know of any, please enlighten me. Thanks.

Btw, I am not a "date setter", because I believe that's of no value. Matt. 24:36 says we will not know the day or hour. However, in verse 33 it says we will know when it's near, "even at the doors" (reference to ancient Jewish wedding customs). We are commanded to know when it's near, but what I wonder is how near is near? Is it 1 year? 5 years? 20 years? 100 years? I know the parable of the fig tree and it's correlation to knowing when summer is at hand, being a sign of the nearness of the coming of Christ, but yet it seems to me that it has already been "near" for a very long time. Of course I realize we see time compared to our relatively short life-spans, so our ideas of "near" may be skewed a bit in relation to that.

Anybody have any ideas to share here?

 

[Truth Files]

MT59

The generation that the Lord speaks is the generation of rejection .... this has been running from the first century until this day .... He uses this term several times when describing those of Israel who rejected Him as Messiah and King

This statement has nothing to do with the life span of a generation like 60 or 70 years for example

So one cannot start from a date like 1948 and attempt to calculate the beginning date of the 70th week

If you have a good Bible search engine type in "generation" and study all of related scriptural references .... the term is used in the N.T. to describe Israel's generation of rejection

 

[Truth Files]

HB67 sid:

"I used to think the same thing about this as you, but now,to me it looks as if these are two different battles"


Exekiel's vision has two parts: the invasion at the middle of the 70th week [Daniel 9:26-27] ..... and the resultant battle of Armagegddon 42 months later

Psalms 83 describes the inner core of Israel's enemies and Ezekiel 38 describes the outer Middle Eastern regions of the same

The link with the Psalms 83 grouping is "Assur" who supports them .... this is the Little horn of Daniel's visions .... the "antichrist" .... the same is described in Micah 5:5-6 [the Assyrian] .... the first beast of Revelation [Revelation 13:1-5]

Gog is satan addressed in Ezekiel 38; 39 [Ezekiel 38:17] and it is this fallen angelic who is the driver behind the Assyrian beast in the little horn [Revelation 13:1-4]

Your view seems to be coming from the "rapture ready" group of Strandberg, James, Kinsella, Lindsey; etc. and those who follow Bill Salus and his idea that Psalms 83 is a pre-70th week war that will result in destroying Islam in the Middle East and then greatly expanding Israel's territory .... this idea does not fit the prophetic pictures at all

Nothing of the unfulfilled portion of the events of the prophetic scriptures will happen outside of the 70th week and beyond .... all of the events scheduled must be within this scope of the visions

What Bill Salus has done is to take the victory of Israel against satan's ploy to destroy the nation out of context and place this event in front of the coming 70th week, but these things will not take place until just at the end of the 70th week when the Lord will come and rescue a believing remnant part of Israel who will follow Him in battle against the beast and his Islamic followers who will have invaded, subjugated, and occupied Israel, Jerusalem, and the temple mount for themselves [then, and only then will Israel's expansion come by the Lord's doing and the setting of His millennial kingdom upon the earth [Acts 1:6]]

The invasion of Israel in the scope of the visions will not take place until the middle of the 70th week as described in Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; Daniel 9:26-27; Joel 2; 3; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24:15-16; Luke 21:20-24; .... the resultant battle of Armageddon will come in just after 42 months of the beast's rule [Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5], and the beast and his followers will be routed and destroyed by the Lord and the believing remnant part of Israel's army at Armageddon [Joel 2:20; Micah 5:5-6; Zechariah 14; Revelation 19:11-21]

Israel is living in the land today and in position for experiencing these things .... the nation is currently under the Lord's protection to keep it for the coming 70th week and beyond .... Israel is permanently secure and living in confidence just as Ezekiel views the nation before the coming invasion [Ezekiel 8-12]

If the tribulation period and time of "Jacob's trouble" were to begin today [the 70th week decreed] there will be 1260 days of the beast's rising and threatening moves in the Middle East against Israel [Daniel 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 11:36-45; 12:7]

During this time his campaign to confederate his Middle Eastern followers will be completed and then the attack upon Israel will take place .... these will succeed, but only for a short period of time [42 months, the second 1260 days of the 70th week]

I agree with the "rapture ready" position on the pre-tribulation rapture, but that view held by the leaders of this website regarding a pre-tribulation war eliminating the Islamic states of today's setting is wrong for many reasons and it is unsupported by prophetic scripture

If you have specific reasonable questions relating to this subject I will respond

 

[Truth Files]

"It does not say the foolish ones had no oil to begin with"

In fact it does .... read this parable carefully and understand the message conveyed

Matthew
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them [because they didn't have any in the first place]:

25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps [because they have oil].

25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out [their lamps never burned].

25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. [You must go and seek your salvation which you do not possess]

25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

These are "professing" christians only .... they are not saved

One who receives the Lord's holy spirit [the oil] is saved and will never be shut out by the Lord .... these "virgins" with lamps, but with no oil, will obviously not participate in the Lord's action to immortalize His true church

One is either saved, or they are not

This passage of scripture in Matthew 25:1-13 needs to be read in conjunction with Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19

Notice that those of the foolish who profess only will not enter the door [Matthew 25:10; Revelation 3:16] because they are not really believers .... they possess the outward appearance of a "church", but the Lord will reject them

Then after [in the tribulation period], these will have to seek the Lord in order to be truly saved ..... He will not with draw His offer of salvation during the coming period of His wrath and judgment of an unbelieving world [Revelation 6:2; 6:9-11; 14:6-7; 14:13]

He said "I wish that you were either cold, or hot" .... because the lukewarm position is the most difficult position to move one away from .... those who think they are saved and are not .... the majority of the professing church today are in this position for various reasons [Revelation 3:15-19]

In other words, the unbeliever [the cold] is actually more conducive to the christian witness than one who thinks they are saved and are not ..... do you know any of these?

Many have been deceived by the movements they have chosen to follow and many are fence sitters who simply have not gone far enough with their seeking, but choose the more comfortable position of the middle ground