Pre Tribulation Rapture and a majority of Christians being mislead

[Rize]

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This scripture is in the middle of a day of the Lord discussion.  The wrath referred to is the wrath of God in the day of the Lord.  This comes after the persecution of the Anti-Christ.  The word salvation is literally delivered.  It can be translated either way, and in this case, an argument can be made that it should have been delivered (as in delivered from out of the persecution of the Anti-Christ).

2 Thessalonians 2:1-16
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.
Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

I think that Paul's teaching here is very clear.  Christians will suffer through the Anti-Christ's persecution and be delivered (raptured) before God's wrath comes on the Earth.

Notice that he says "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him".  This clearly teaches the rapture.  But when he starts talking, he is talking about the Day of the Lord which is the beginning of Earth's destruction.  He said basically, concerning the rapture, and then didn't say anything concerning it (if you believe in pre-trib rapture).  Now, if you correctly believe that we are raptured when God comes to destroy this world, then it makes perfect sense. 

The wrath that we are saved form is God's wrath in judgment (after the earth is destroyed), and for those of us alive during the end, we are saved from God's wrath against the unrighteous.  We will not be spared the Anti-Christ's persecution, however we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.  If we truly believe in Jesus, we will ultimately come to no harm.  Even if they gather us up and cut our heads off, we will end up in heaven.  To live is Christ and to die is gain said Paul.  It's time for us to start facing up to these facts.

And just to cinch this up: The Anti-Christ brings the wrath of Satan not the wrath of God.

Revelation 12:13-17
When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring--those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Notice the word enraged.  The chapter immediately after this is Revelation 13 which contains the famous mark of the beast.  The church will absolutely suffer Satan's wrath in the last days.

We need to prepare and be strong.  I would love to skip the whole tribulation thing if possible, but it's just not scriptural.

 

[JesusServant]

Originally posted by Ben johnson
Andrew, First Century Christians (really, Christians throughout time) were thrown to the lions; surely, for them that was as bad as the "Great Tribulation"? Why didn't God rescue them?

If I may ask, I would like to hear your comment on Luke 21:10-36; does the Bible you use, in verse 36 say "Kataxioo-counted-worthy", or "katischuo-have-strength"?

Compare "Blueletterbible":
http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1044518095-9553.html#36

with "Crosswalk"
http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2729&version=kjv

Apparently modern Christians are better than the Christians of past centuries?  Duh Ben.

It's like pre-tribbers think we can't wait to be tortured and/or killed.  Who would want that?  All I know is I can never renounce Christ.

Andrew, do you not know that God can *preserve* you through anything?  Just like He did with Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, He CAN preserve you in the fire.  I trust that my God can get me through anything, no matter how it looks.  I've had places in my life that looked so bleek that I thought I'd never see the light again, yet here I am living in that very light.  God is awesome, I never limit what He's capable of whether I've witnessed it or not.

 

[Rize]

It's not so bad as it seems though.

Look at Revelation's 7 letters.

Esphus used to be a good church, and still isn't horrible, but it has some problems that must be corrected if they are to be saved.

Smyrna is about to suffer persecution by the devil as a test.  They are ordered to stay faithful to the end to receive the crown of life.

Pergamum is a good church with problems as well.  Like Esphus, they are warned to repent before it is too late.

Thyatira another good church with problems.  Yet there are some among this church who don't hold to the woman Jezebel's teaching (even though they tolerate her).  They are told to hold fast to persevere until the end.

Sardis has a reputation for being alive, but this church is dead.  There is only a small fraction here who hold to the truth.  They are told to persevere.

Philadelphia has an open door before it that no one can shut.  They have not denied Christ, so he will increase their little bit of power.  Additionally, they have been so good, that they will be "kept from" (which literally means guarded out from) the hour of testing which is coming before the whole world.  Again, they are instructed to persevere.

Laodicea thinks it is rich, but it is spiritually poor.  Jesus advises them to let him in when he knocks on the door.  Those who repents will overcome.

-------------------

Now, notice that the only church which is kept from the hour of testing is Philadelphia (not through rapture, but through the strength of God).  Every other church where trials and testing are mentioned must persevere through them!  The message here is to get your act together!  If you want divine strength and protection through the great persecution, then seek God with all of your heart.  We should do this just for love of God though, not for protection.

These letters, I strongly agree, are dual natured.  They are simultaneously prophetic and natural at the same time.  They were meant for specific churches, and for generic end-times Christians.

Which church do you belong too?

 

[postrib]

Originally posted by Andrew
...God doesnt need or want you to add to the sufferings of Christ on the cross...

How do you understand the following verses? "The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you" (John 15:20); "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29); "Ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings" (1 Peter 4:13); "The sufferings of Christ abound in us" (2 Corinthians 1:5); "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Philippians 3:10); "And fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24).

Didn't Jesus let his bride go through the terrible days of persecution and martyrdom under the Roman emperors? How will our tribulation under the Antichrist be any different? When we Christians suffer and die, are we really harmed? "To live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21); "Some of you shall they cause to be put to death... But there shall not an hair of your head perish" (Luke 21:16, 18); "Be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

Originally posted by Andrew
...you are NOT appointed unto wrath...

Could all of us Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) still not be appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9) because during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation? I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

In the pre-trib view, will we Christians who will be in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) all be appointed to wrath? Aren't being appointed to wrath and obtaining salvation mutually exclusive? "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Originally posted by Andrew
...they have forgotten the Gospel...

Note that no scripture says that the purpose of the rapture is to provide a way of escape from the tribulation, just as the gospel itself has never been about a promise of escape from earthly suffering and death, but has always been a promise of victory and eternal life despite suffering and death:

"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Romans 8:35-37).

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:7).

"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

"I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18).

"For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17).

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit" (Revelation 14:12-13).

"If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" (Luke 9:23-24).

 

[Winterfire]

Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world (Revelation 3:10)

For God decided to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us (1 Thessalonians 5:9)

 

Fact #1 - Jesus suggested that we pray to escape tribulation.

As He was describing the calamities which would happen at the end of the world, Jesus told his disciples to 'pray that, if possible, you may escape these horrors' (Luke 21:36)

Fact #2 - There is no specific mention of 'the church' during the tribulation.

Chapters 1-3 of Revelation mention Christians (collectively called 'the church').  In chapter 4, who are the saints in heaven if not the church?  So, during the rest of Revelation, this beckons the question: Where is the Church? Since the time Jesus acended into heaven, Christians have been referred to as 'the church'.  Why suddenly, during the seven years of the tribulation, are they referred to as 'tribulation saints'?  In that case, it would make sense that the tribulation saints are those that accept Jesus after the rapture.

Fact #3- Christians are specifically told to expect the rapture.

Take a good look at passages such as 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4-5, Titus 2, and 2 Peter 3.  These admonitions of Paul and Peter that believers should anticipate the rapture suggest that it must be the first event to occur.  The rapture wouldn't be a surprise if it came at the end of the tribulation, as it could be anticipated and calculated by those events.

 

Anyway, this is just my opinion (I'm not a bible scholar by any means) and I don't think it truely matters in the end.  It IS going to happen...sometime, whether it's pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib.

 

[Rize]

Yesterday at 12:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65

Because you have obeyed my command to persevere, I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world (Revelation 3:10)

For God decided to save us through our Lord Jesus Christ, not to pour out his anger on us (1 Thessalonians 5:9) 

Fact #1 - Jesus suggested that we pray to escape tribulation.

As He was describing the calamities which would happen at the end of the world, Jesus told his disciples to 'pray that, if possible, you may escape these horrors' (Luke 21:36)

Fact #2 - There is no specific mention of 'the church' during the tribulation.

Chapters 1-3 of Revelation mention Christians (collectively called 'the church').  In chapter 4, who are the saints in heaven if not the church?  So, during the rest of Revelation, this beckons the question: Where is the Church? Since the time Jesus acended into heaven, Christians have been referred to as 'the church'.  Why suddenly, during the seven years of the tribulation, are they referred to as 'tribulation saints'?  In that case, it would make sense that the tribulation saints are those that accept Jesus after the rapture.

Fact #3- Christians are specifically told to expect the rapture.

Take a good look at passages such as 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4-5, Titus 2, and 2 Peter 3.  These admonitions of Paul and Peter that believers should anticipate the rapture suggest that it must be the first event to occur.  The rapture wouldn't be a surprise if it came at the end of the tribulation, as it could be anticipated and calculated by those events. 

Anyway, this is just my opinion (I'm not a bible scholar by any means) and I don't think it truely matters in the end.  It IS going to happen...sometime, whether it's pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib.

I've explained Revelation 3:10 elsewhere, but in short, the Greek words actually paint the picture of being gaurded from out of tribulation. 

Fact 1:  True.  But escaping the tribulation doesn't mean being raptured out of it.

Fact 2:  There are mentions of the saints.  And the timing of the rapture is specifically just before the day of the Lord (2 Thess 2) which occurs right after the sign in the sun moon and stars which occurs after the great tribulation (Mathew 24:29).  After this, Jesus describes in Mathew 24:30-31 something which is obviously the rapture, but pre-trib "scholars" have twisted it into a "Jewish only rapture" that occurs after the normal rapture.  This is clearly absurd in light of the rest of scripture (2 Thess 2 especially, try to read a non-KJV translation).

Fact 3:  True but...  why does this make it the first thing that will occur?  Ah, yes it does need to be a surprise.  That is why the pre-wrath position is the only valid position.  Pre-trib doesn't work, and mid and post trib have known days and hours that won't require watching.

Pre-wrath puts the rapture at an unknown period of time in the second half of hte 7 year period.  It will occur after the persecution by Anti-Christ (the wrath of Satan, Revelation 12:17) but before the wrath of God.  This preserves the unknown day and hour, but it gives us a time period to watch from within (when the AC starts persecuting, there can be no more than 3 years and a month until the rapture).

However, by watching, Paul didn't mean to look at the sky and keep an eye out for Jesus.  He meant to be free of sin.  You better keep your eye on your faith-o-meter not the sky

Winterfire, why don't you check out The Prewrath Rapture of the Church by Rosenthal or The Rapture Question Answered Plain and Simple by Van Kampen.  Or else, do an internet search for the pre-wrath rapture (or prewrath or pre wrath).  See what you can find about it (or just read all of my posts in these threads )

 

[postrib]

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...Revelation 3:10...

Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time, and they weren't raptured.

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...Luke 21:36...

I believe we should all be praying that we might be counted worthy to escape the tribulation: "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21:36). But note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Luke 21:8-35 that he is speaking to in Luke 21:36.

I believe we will escape the entire tribulation and stand before the Son of Man (Luke 21:36) only if we die before the tribulation starts (Isaiah 57:1, 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21-23). Many of us Christians will go through the tribulation (Luke 21:31; Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...There is no specific mention of 'the church' during the tribulation...

Aren't we Christians mentioned throughout Revelation, and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?

Note that the word "church" isn't used in Chapters 19-21 of Revelation, or anywhere in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Do some then believe that these chapters and books don't refer to the church?

If we look at all the myriad descriptions of Christians in all the NT books, how many of these descriptions don't use the specific word "church," but do use other key words and phrases such as "in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," and "brethren," the same key words and phrases used to describe those of us Christians who will face the coming tribulation?

In your view, why should those "in the Lord" in Revelation 14:13 not be considered to be the church, but those "in the Lord" in Romans 16:11-13, 1 Corinthians 4:17, Ephesians 2:21, Colossians 4:7, and 1 Thessalonians 3:8 should be?

Aren't the Christians "in the Lord" in the tribulation New Covenant saints, after the cross and after Pentecost, and not Old Covenant saints?

In your view, why should those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22, Philippians 3:9, and James 2:1 should be?

In your view, why should the "saints" in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but the "saints" in Revelation 19:8, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 1:12, Jude 3 should be?

Does it say the church ends in Revelation 6 and then resumes again in Revelation 19?

In your view, why should the "brethren" in Revelation 6:11 not be considered to be the church, but the "brethren" in Revelation 19:10, Revelation 22:9, Romans 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:10, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13 should be?

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...In chapter 4, who are the saints in heaven if not the church?...

Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church.

I believe the 24 elders could be angelic rulers as ancient as the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:6), who with the 4 beasts have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

On what basis are the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 considered to be the church but all the Christians in Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, and 20:4 are not?

In the pre-trib view, where are all the other people in the church in Revelation 4-5? If there can be 100,000,000 angels mentioned about the throne (Revelation 5:11), why would only 24 church elders be mentioned?

Why aren't the elders at the marriage, or the supper that many say lasts the entire seven years? Do they miss the entire marriage and supper? For we see them repeatedly throughout the tribulation chapters (Revelation 7:11, 11:16, 14:3) and never is there any reference to either the marriage or the supper.

In the pre-trib view, how long before the tribulation must the rapture come in order that the judgment might be completed before the tribulation begins?

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...the tribulation saints...

Note that no scripture refers to "tribulation saints," or says that there can be anyone saved outside of the body of Christ, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5); "ye are called in one body" (Colossians 3:15); "he is the saviour of the body" (Ephesians 5:23); "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles" (1 Corinthians 12:13); "we, being many, are one body in Christ" (Romans 12:5); "now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular" (1 Corinthians 12:27); "the cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread" (1 Corinthians 10:16-17).

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...are those that accept Jesus after the rapture...

Does it show anyone repenting during the tribulation? Doesn't it say that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be d*amned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12)? Is it possible all the Christians we see in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) are us, saved before the tribulation began?

Could giving unbelievers the idea of a 2nd chance be dangerous? After hearing the ideas of a pre-trib rapture and a 2nd chance, could unbelievers get complacent and say "Oh, when I see a pre-trib rapture happen then I'll repent and believe; I've got a 2nd chance, right?"

Should we instead warn them? "The Bible doesn't promise that there will be a rapture before the tribulation. And in the great tribulation God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...Christians are specifically told to expect the rapture...

Does any scripture promise us a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul say that Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8)?

13th February 2003 at 06:28 AM Winterfire said this in Post #65
...wouldn't be a surprise...

Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

 

[EveOfGrace]

Posttrib u said this:

The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

To which i just want to say, hey, thanks for that. Truly a revelation.

 Rize, u said this:

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

I added the bold there to emphasize just how it is that we are saved. THROUGH the sancitfying work of the HOly Spirit and THROUGH belief in the truth.....  Perseverence produces patience. Endurance produces steadfastness. Testing strengthens faith. And faithfulness brings glory to God.  Our deliverer is within us, and THROUGH tribulation we will bring Him glory. A catching away prior to it glorifies nothing.

One question to anyone believing a rapture prior to the completion of the Great Tribulation.

If we use the ever popular 1 Thess: For the Lord Himself will DESCEND(come down) FROM heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, AND with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and REMAIN shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the air.

Ok, He descends from heaven, the dead in Him rise first, and we meet them. Jesus descends to meet us but it does not say we all then ASCEND. He is coming down, where we meet HIm, no mention of going back up to heaven.   

The question: In this rapture, where supposedly the "church" is caught up into heaven, if the dead in Christ rise then also,(the empty graves of leftbehind ) is there another RISING of the dead again at the end?  There would have to be 2 separate dead Christian risings since there will be those in Great Tribulation that are KILLED because of their faithfulness to Jesus Christ. My bible mentions only 2 resurrections. 

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (rev.20:6)

If you include a rapture any time prior to the end of AC's reign, pre or mid, then you must also include a 'mysterious' resurrection of the dead in Christ other than what Paul and John spoke of.

EveOfGrace       

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Today at 07:10 AM EveOfGrace said this in Post #68
If we use the ever popular 1 Thess: For the Lord Himself will DESCEND(come down) FROM heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, AND with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and REMAIN shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds to MEET the Lord in the air.

Ok, He descends from heaven, the dead in Him rise first, and we meet them. Jesus descends to meet us but it does not say we all then ASCEND. He is coming down, where we meet HIm, no mention of going back up to heaven.   

EveOfGrace       

Now lets look at how the rapture will happen according to scripture :
 
1 Thes. 4:16-17 - "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be  with the Lord."

First notice that the Lord descends Himself.  He brings no one down with Him.  Post trib believers say that He will send His angels to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other, and that these will come down with Him.  This would be the second coming, not the rapture.  In the second coming, the whole body of Christ will come down, but in the rapture, only Christ will come down to the second heaven as He calls us up.  This is where we will stand before the Son of Man before we are taken up to the 3rd heaven, to the place that He said He was preparing for us.  Now lets look at the picture that scripture gives us of how it will actually happen.
 
1 Kings 6:8 - "The door for the middle side-chambers was in the right side of the house: and they went up by winding stairs into the middle [story], and out of the middle into the third.

Remember, the stories represent the heavens, but also notice the winding stairs here.  Now read on.

Ezekiel 41:7 - "The passageway of the side chambers widened from story to story; for the structure was supplied with a stairway all around the temple. For this reason the structure became wider from story to story. One ascended from the bottom story to the uppermost story by way of the middle one."

Glory to God in heaven!!!  Folks, take a real good look at that last sentence in the above scripture.  You don't need me to explain it.  It stands on it's own!!  And the widening stairway as it goes up is a picture of the whirlwind that took Eli'jah up to heaven.  I believe the scriptures are telling us that Christ Himself will leave His Fathers Throne and come down to the second heaven, probably down to the ozone layer, just over the clouds, and with a loud command, the dead in Him, followed immediately by those who have remained in Him (not the world) that are still alive will be caught up in the twinkling of an eye.   They will be changed from perishable to imperishable and give an account of what they had done in the flesh and they will receive crowns and robes.  Then they will be ushered into the Temple in heaven, into the upper rooms, where they will feast, break bread and drink the new wine that Jesus said He would not drink again until He drank it with His disciples in His Kingdom.

 

[EveOfGrace]

Hello there Rollin Thunder, you replied to my post without answerring the one question, just one, that was asked.  So now i have more questions.  

You said: 

First notice that the Lord descends Himself. He brings no one down with Him. Post trib believers say that He will send His angels to gather His elect from one end of heaven to the other, and that these will come down with Him. This would be the second coming, not the rapture. In the second coming, the whole body of Christ will come down, but in the rapture, only Christ will come down to the second heaven as He calls us up.

Where in the world, or bible rather, does it say He comes down with anyone other than Himself? I for one certainly didnt say that. His second coming is just that....HIS coming, not ours. Sending angels to gather us in no way states the angels are with Him nor anyone else for that matter. Anyway, my first question still stands.........The rapture you speak of, His desceding, where the dead in Christ rise first, is a resurrection.  Are you suggesting this resurrection is also an unseen, mysterious, secret meeting?

   

I believe the scriptures are telling us that Christ Himself will leave His Fathers Throne and come down to the second heaven, probably down to the ozone layer, just over the clouds, and with a loud command, the dead in Him, followed immediately by those who have remained in Him

I guess you do, since there you just said it.  Christ leaves His Fathers Throne?  To resurrect the dead?  Matt. and Psalms sais: Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.

At this resurrection, and rapture, have His enemies then become HIs footstool?   So the tribulation by AntiChrist then is what?  His friends?

And while this friendly tribulation is going on, the resurrected and changed Church, or part of it anyway, are having a feast where? The Temple of God? 

They will be changed from perishable to imperishable and give an account of what they had done in the flesh and they will receive crowns and robes. Then they will be ushered into the Temple in heaven, into the upper rooms, where they will feast, break bread and drink the new wine that Jesus said He would not drink again until He drank it with His disciples in His Kingdom.

Wow, all that wining and dining and celebrating happens DURING the most horrible time of persectution of saints that ever was or will be. Fascinating. Dreamy even.  Is there empty chairs for those who just happen to lose their head while your having your party?  Or do they wait till your filled and then join you afterwards?   So many secrets of grandeur.  Such Glory for none to see. 

EveOfGrace

 

   

 

[EveOfGrace]

I was a bit sarcastically inquisitve in my last post, and i would apologize but i dont find it necessary, just in case anyone is wonderring.  It was said earlier that this pre/mid/post trib/wrath concept was not important for salvation/redemption purposes and that ALL that matters is that we are ready for ONE of them.  Well i am not afraid to say WRONG!

Its important to God, enough to give prophecy for it, enough for Jesus Himself to teach about it, in several places i might add, and enough for the apostles to admonish believers about. The return of our Lord IS the most Glorifying event YET to happen!  We should be counting ourselves blessed to be able to be here when He does step His feet on the Mount of Olives.  Instead of NOT being here?

Resurrection of the dead is unmistakable in its timing and purpose.

If we invent scenarios within it, imagine schemes of secrecy in favor of pleasure, and blind ourselves with a false promise of unmerited rest, we tread on dangerous ground.  We exalt our images above that of Christ. To which He sais: cast them down. If we dont stand for the truth, no matter how painful, we WILL fall for anything.

It will be horrible, to be imprisoned, to be betrayed by ones own family, to be killed for the Name of our Lord.  But IF we remain faithful, it will bring HIM GLORY!  Being taken away shows only weakness of the very Spirit that is ABLE to protect, defend, deliver and sanctify the vessel He lives in.

If there were some secret rapture, and those that are left to suffer the rest of the terrible days ahead, what hope would they have?  They would have just witnessed a God that takes His own OUT of the earth, because He cannot protect them here? A God with little power to preserve the fruit of His vine THROUGH any possible danger.  Isnt He supposed to be WITHIN them? 

If the Beast is given to make war against the saints of God, i for one prefer not to dodge the draft. Put me on the front line.  When the time is up, i will count it pleasure if i may hear..."Well done thou good and faithul servant."   

If you do 'imagine' yourself sitting comfortably by at a table in celebration, you may lose the war.

EveOfGrace 

 

[JesusServant]

I agree Grace, it is important. I think what is meant when people say that it isn't important is that it isn't a requirement for your salvation. However, I believe, like you, God gave us these prophecies for a reason. So that we will not be mislead or deceived as the Jews were when Jesus came. Who would want to be mislead about Jesus' second coming? I know I don't want to be deceived and I doubt any other Christians do either.

 

[Rize]

Rollin, it says "the Lord Himself" not "the Lord by Himself".

It says that the dead will simply "rise".  Is it not possible that they might be rising through the work of unseen angels?

I hope that's not the best you can do.  And these references to obscure OT passages remind me of the way Catholics cite scripture in support of their doctrines.  I just don't see the relevance.  Even if there is relevence, it says nothing of when or how the rapture will occur.

 

[postrib]

16th February 2003 at 01:17 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #69
...the Lord descends Himself.  He brings no one down with Him...

I believe that at the 2nd coming the spirits of the dead in Christ will return "with" Christ from heaven (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15) and their bodies will be resurrected (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

"Even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15); "I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23), "to the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints" (1 Thessalonians 3:13).

16th February 2003 at 01:17 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #69
...Post trib believers say that He will send His angels to gather His elect...

Note that "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is in the passive; it doesn't say we'll catch up ourselves.

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:17 doesn't say that Jesus himself will catch us up. Jesus will catch us up by sending his angels: "Then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect" (Mark 13:27).

16th February 2003 at 01:17 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #69
...This would be the second coming, not the rapture...

Could all of the following passages speak of the same rapture at the same coming?

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

Doesn't the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture require that the 2nd coming be a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), that the last trumpet be the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and that the 1st resurrection be the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it doesn't really make sense of scripture?

Could the pre-trib doctrine be a false hope held by some unwilling to endure the sound doctrine (2 Timothy 4:3-5) that we Christians must "endure to the end" in the tribulation (Matthew 24:13) with "patience and faith" (Revelation 13:7-10; 14:12-13)?

16th February 2003 at 01:17 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #69
...we are taken up to the 3rd heaven, to the place that He said He was preparing for us...

Note that no verse says that the rapture will take anyone any higher than the clouds.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). Note that he didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said: "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

16th February 2003 at 01:17 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #69
...give an account of what they had done in the flesh and they will receive crowns and robes...

Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged before Armageddon: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5); "The LORD will judge his people" (Psalm 135:14); "The Lord shall judge his people" (Hebrews 10:30).

16th February 2003 at 01:17 PM rollinTHUNDER said this in Post #69
...where they will feast...

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that Paul says that at the 2nd coming "the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed... when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:52-54), for death will have been swallowed up in victory for all of us believers; and the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with this same 2nd coming and resurrection in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory... And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him" (Isaiah 25:8-9).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb shown to be at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

 

[EveOfGrace]

Posttrib that entire post was right on!