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Pre Tribulation Rapture and a majority of Christians being mislead

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JesusServant, Dec 5, 2002.

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  1. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Brothers and sisters....all I have to say is tsk, tsk, tsk. :(  Arguing whether or not the rapture comes first or confusing it with the Second Coming. :scratch:

    Well I am going to teach you something that makes total sense. First of all think about this...Who, what, where and why is the first order of things to understand scriptures. When reading ask, who is this addressed to, where is this taking place, what point in time was this written, and why this was written? Okay now, here we go (I am going to do this one post at a time so not to overwhelm anyone here).

    The Second Coming of Christ [Rev. 19:11-16; Matt 24:16-30] is related to the nation of Israel. You know, that place which is on the other side of the planet. Where is the touch down point? the Mount of Olives from which he accended [Acts 1:9-11] which occurs at the close of the Great Tribulation. Who is the Great Tribulation meant for? Israel [Daniel 12:1]. Of course it encompases the entire planet but the G.T. will cause Israel to do national repentance and acceptence of Jesus as their Messiah So the Davidic Kingdom can be established [Acts 1:6-7].

    I am closing now since I am busy. This was a really light lesson and I intend to follow up on this to show why the Rapture has nothing to do with the Second Coming. Here is a clue: different program. Bye :wave:
     
  2. Michael0701

    Michael0701 Harley Ridin' Believer!!

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    This is why I love these forums. I knew nothing of pre/post tribulation. I knew nothing of preterists. I have heard 3 sides to a debate and still don't "know" what is going to happen. But my faith is still as solid as it was before I started reading this thread. :clap:  Many thanks to all the posters for giving not only their points of view, but for sharing their faith with me.

     

    Mikey
     
  3. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    NP Mikey and God bless you brother.  Your faith shouldn't be shaken here, but stimulated into more Bible study, research, prayer and God seeking :)  I don't think any form of tribulation discussion is salvation threatening (except maybe the preterist view because it takes away hope of Jesus' return - but hey, it still shouldn't effect one's salvation)
     
  4. BaBiDaNsTaR

    BaBiDaNsTaR MaGaZiNa, ISsUe 16!

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    Wow, unlike Mikey,  I finished reading most of the posts and it's almost left me a little bit confused. :confused:   I mean I know that Revelation is under no circumstances exactly EASILY UNDERSTANDABLE, but I never know that there were such point of views as post-trib, or mid-rapture or whatever someone else said.  Hmm...anyway I am going to stick to what I believe, that there will be a Rapture. 
     
  5. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    I gave a clue in my last post: different program. First of all, I want everyone who is interested to bear with me. I need to explain a few things before I get to the different program. 

     

    In early Acts, after Jesus was taken up to Heaven, the Apostles began to offer Israel the Davidic Kingdom [Acts 2:1-36]. If you notice Peter message was not directed toward any gentile but to "devout Jews" dwelling in Jerusalem out of every nation. Pentecost was one of Israel's annual feast in which every male was required to appear at the sanctuary at Jerusalem [Ex.23:14-17]. Even the obtaining of salvation was different [Acts 2:38].  Water baptism was required for the remission of sins and then the receiving of the Holy Spirit followed.

     

    In verse 39, For the promise is unto you (Israel), and to your children, and to all that are afar off (Jews in distant lands), even as many as the Lord, our God (Israel's claim) shall call. In Chapter 3, after the healing of the lame man at the temple, Peter made his second sermon to "Ye men of Israel" [verse 12]. Now read on down to verse 19-21, repent and be converted...verse 20, and He shall send Jesus (back to rule Israel, ie, Second Coming)...verse 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution (restoration of the Davidic kindom to Israel which Christ would come back to rule [Acts 1:6; 2 Sam 7:13,16 I Chron. 17:3-15]).

     

    I am not going to do heavy duty scripture study here. i only have time to give this information a little at a time because I have a busy schedual. I also work for a living. I do hope you are getting the gist of what I am written so far.  I want to skip right to the point of where Stephen [please read Acts 7.]is being stoned. Stephen had just addressed the Sanhedrin which Israel's high priest and other high ranking officals of Israel's religion was in attendance. If you look closely at Act 7:56, You see Stephen exclaim that Jesus was standing on the right hand of God. Mainstream Christianity teaches that Jesus was welcoming the martyr Stephen. I beg to differ. I have come to the conclusion that Jesus was ready to return if Israel's leaders would have repented.  Yes, Israel was that close to having the Davidic Kingdom established. But things did not work out that way at all.

    My next post I will go more into a bit more detail (time permitting) to what happens next. The answer to the clue: different program. Until next time.:wave:
     
  6. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    I have to work today. :cry: But I will continue. I don't know if I will have to continue with another post to complete this. To continue: Previously I wrote that "Jesus was standing, ready to return," and how I interpreted (among those of the Bearean Bible Society) that if the governing body of Israel would have repented that national repentance would have occured. This is not saying the Great Tribulation would not have happened because it was prophesied in the O.T. that it would. It has to come first before the Second Coming.  

    As we can see from Acts 8 that a great presecution occured from none other than Israel's spiritual leaders against the apostles and Hebrew believers. Saul (also known as Paul) made havoc of the church , verse 3, and the believers scattered out of Jerusalem but preached the word wherever they went, verse 4. In Chapter 9 we have Saul desiering letters from THE HIGH PRIEST to the synagoges of Damascus that if he found any Hebrew believers, no matter what the gender, he would bring them bound to Jerusalem. Now we all should know about the conversion of Saul on his way to Damascus. However, this conversion marked a turning point. A begining of a transition period.

    Has anyone realised that Jesus and the apostles lived under the Law and that the Hebrew church of early Acts lived under the Law? Something happened when Paul because the "apostle to the gentiles" [Romans 11:13.] Even through the entire book of Acts the Davidic Kingdom was still offered to Israel and Israel continured to reject her Messiah. What God did under Paul ministry was the formation of "The Body of Christ." This was not prophesied in the O.T. If you would please read Eph 3:1-7 you will see that the dispensation of grace was given to him by revelation of the "mystery of Christ" that the gentiles should be fellow heirs and partakers of his promises. Notice in verse 5 that this was not known in other ages but it is now revealed. "It is now" is present tense. See also Colossians 1:25,26.

    Now what did God do to make the "Body of Christ" possible? If you look at Romans 9:4 which says that Israel received the covenants, giving of the Law, service of God, and the promises that belonged to them in which Christ came in the flesh--see also Romans 15:8. What happen was that Israel was nationally set aside by God [Romans 11:32, For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all]. Romans 10:12 says that there is now no difference between Jew or gentile. The Jews no longer have that special relation with God but are counted among us gentiles to accept salvation through the shed blood of Christ with the forgiveness of sins to become part of his Body. Salvation through the blood of Christ was never mentioned in early Acts.

    Now we see that Israel had to be nationally set aside to be counted in unbelief with the gentiles so that God could create the "Body of Christ" which both were never prophesied nor was the Rapture [I Thess 4:13-18]. God's prophetic clock ground to a halt in Acts 28:28 but will resume after the Rapture because in Romans 11:29, "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

    After the Rapture the prophetic clock will resume and the method of salvation will be: "Repent, and be baptized for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost [Acts 2:38]. Yes, this is the time when the actual outpouring of the Spirit will occur and the offering of the Davidic Kingdom will once again be offered to Israel who will accept it this time around. The "Body of Christ" has to be removed so that the Law can be reinstated.

    I hope you enjoyed this rather simple Bible study and it is my hope that it clears up a few misconceptions about the Rapture and Second Coming. Till next time--God Bless.

     

    Mr. John
     
  7. 4Peace

    4Peace New Member

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    Here's an article by N.T. Wright I ran across yesterday (I really like this guy but my verdict is still out on this particular interpretation) written in Biblical Review Aug 2001. As someone who continues to struggle with belief/unbelief and just downright confusion regarding the Rapture, I found it an interesting read.


    "Farewell to the Rapture"

    The American obsession with he second coming of Jesus - especially with distorted interpretations of it - continues unabated. Seen from my side of the Atlantic, the phenomenal success of the "Left Behind" books appears puzzling, even bizarre. Few in the U.K. hold the belief on which the popular series of novels is based: that there will be a literal 'rapture' in which believers will be snatched up to heaven, leaving empty cars crashing on freeways and kids coming home from school only to find that their parents have been taken to be with Jesus while they have been 'left behind'. This pseudo-theological version of "Home Alone" has reportedly frightened many children into some kind of (distorted) faith.
    This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul's First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
    What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?
    It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event. The gospel passages about "the Son of Man coming on the clouds" (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus' vindication, his 'coming' to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.
    The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines, and I don't deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within god's new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won't in any way resemble the "Left Behind" account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which 'heaven' is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time altogether.
    The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27, Revelation 21:1, Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g. Colossians 3:4, 1 John 3:2).
    Paul's description of Jesus' reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinithians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus' 'coming' or 'appearing', those who are still alive will be 'changed' or 'transformed' so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery - from biblical and political sources - to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.
    First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what's been going on in his absence.
    Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which "the people of the saints of the Most High" (that is, the "one like a son of man") are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
    Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul's image of the people "meeting the Lord in the air" should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
    Paul's mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the "Left Behind" series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
    Paul's misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul's, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the "Left Behind" mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God's world on the grounds that it's all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn't this be overturned if we recaptured Paul's wholistic vision of God's whole creation?

    (BR Aug. 2001, N.T. Wright is a canon theologian of Westminster Abbey, in London)
     
  8. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Gee, at one time, late 19th and early 20th century, the christian across the pond believed in being "caught away" before the Great Tribulation. They even knew the difference between the Hebrew church (which I should have named the kingdom church in my previous posts) and the Body of Christ. Sir Robert Anderson wrote that the book of Acts should have been called "The Fall of Israel."

    Mr. John
     
  9. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    The more I see people scoffing because they say a teaching is new, the more I think of what that angel told Daniel, something to the effect of sealing up the scroll until the time of the end, when knowledge would be increased. It's beyond me why something old and outdated has to be the firm foundation. It's kinda funny to think, that just about 500 years ago, the entire world believed that the world was flat. Maybe we should go back to those ways of thinking??? Not!!
     
  10. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    I would not say that this teaching is new. Pastor C.R. Stam used to pack the house where ever he went to teach this doctrine during the 1950's. Of course, it was opposed my some christian leaders of that time like Ironside. Over time it has lost it appeal for some unknown reason. What is important that people are being saved and washed in the blood of Christ in the hodge podge of different christian beliefs systems. When mainstream christianity begins to teach that no one has to go to Christ for salvation then are we in big trouble.

     

    Mr. John
     
  11. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
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    The Rapture will be at the Second Coming. Please see my post over on the thead, "are the RAPTURE and SECOND COMING the SAME EVENTS" (click here).

    I would add one point that the LEFTBEHIND books seem to totally have missed---in Matt24:40-41 it says: "Two men in the field, one taken one left; two women grinding, one taken one left." Do you think the TAKEN ones are the CHRISTIANS (raptured)? Then please read Luke 17:35-37: "Two men in one bed, two women grinding, two men in the field, one taken and one left. And answering they said, 'WHERE Lord?' (WHERE will they be taken?) Jesus said, 'Where the BODY is, there will the VULTURES be gathered!"

    OOPS! The TAKEN ones, are thown to the VULTURES!!! (or eagles)

    turns out the LEFTBEHIND are the ones to be RAPTURED!!!

    :eek:
     
  12. Mr. John

    Mr. John New Member

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    Sorry, those scriptures refer to the removal of the wicked from the Earth [Matt 13:41,42]. This is clearly not speaking of the rapture or the collection of the living and dead saints at the end of the tribulation when the First Ressurection occurs.

    Mr. John
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    Note that in Matthew 24:36-44 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he says "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). Jesus isn't teaching a 3rd coming. Note that he is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Again, I believe that gathering together means rapture in the context of Jesus' coming:

    "The coming of our Lord...
    and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

    "The Son of man coming...
    and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

    I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming,
    or a 2nd rapture of the church.

    I believe the "gathering together" in Matthew 24:31 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1 is our being "caught up together" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
    I believe Christians will either be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming or they will be lost, as the 5 foolish virgins are lost: "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not" (Matthew 25:10-12); "Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them. Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:23-28).

    "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matthew 7:21-23).

    Can anyone, Hebrew or Gentile, ever come to the Father apart from faith in Jesus?

    "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: NO MAN cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6).

    "By the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole... Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10, 12).

    "If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" (John 15:6).

    "Though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:8).

    And can anyone have faith in Jesus without being part of his body?

    "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13).

    "For the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain" (Acts 28:20).

    "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Romans 1:16).

    "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12).
     
  14. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Mr. John touched on something else that is difficult to interpret if you hold a pre-tribulation rapture...(Mat 13:24) Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: (Mat 13:25) But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. (Mat 13:26) But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. (Mat 13:27) So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? (Mat 13:28) He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? (Mat 13:29) But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. (Mat 13:30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. . . . . . . (Mat 13:36) Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. (Mat 13:37) He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; (Mat 13:38) The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked [one]; (Mat 13:39) The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. (Mat 13:40) As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. (Mat 13:41) The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; (Mat 13:42) And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:43) Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    I believe Ben Johnson touched on this a little as well a couple of posts back.  Can the pre-tribbers explain this parable that Jesus Himself explained for us?  It says the wicked will be gathered together and removed not the righteous.

     
     
  15. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    +13
    Atheist
    US-Libertarian
    Do you accept the possibility that Revelation is not chronological?  Could it be like Genesis 1 and 2 where one part may be an overview and another part contain more intricate details?

    Observe Revelation 14:14-20 then read Revelation 7:9-17.

    These passages represent the rapture and it is not pre tribulation as you can see in both cases.  It occurs just before the wrath of God in each case (notice the grapes of God's wrath in 14:17-20 and notice that the final seal on the "book" or "scroll" is opened immediately in chapter 8. 

    The rapture will occur during the tribulation bringing an immediate end to it and thus the onset of God's wrath.  This is the pre-wrath rapture that I'm preaching in every thread!

    Take a look at it, I think you'll find it most compelling.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/34407.html (the overall flow of Revelation as far as I can tell with support from other scripture)

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/32372.html (the pre-wrath rapture demonstrated and defended strongly from 1 and 2 Thessalonians in posts 27 to 31... and there's more where that came from).

    Some books on the subject are:  The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church by Rosenthal and The Rapture Question Answered Plain & Simple by Van Kampen.
     
  16. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    I think that Revelation 14:14-16 may not be a rapture/resurrection: it could possibly be Jesus harvesting into heaven the souls of those Christians dying under the Antichrist for not taking the mark:

    "They have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped" (Revelation 14:11-16).

    Does any scripture promise us a rapture during the tribulation? Doesn't Jesus say that he will come to gather us together "after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31)?
     
  17. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    +13
    Atheist
    US-Libertarian
    After the persecution yes.  But if we are all gone, there is no one left to persecute.  So in a sense, it is during the tribulation, and in another sense after (since our being raptured will end the persecution of the anti-christ).

    Isn't there something called "the great tribulation" and then just general references to "tribulation"?

    Also, I think TGT is an actual event and a time frame where-as "tribulation" by itself is just a word which has many meanings (including persecution, suffering, trouble, anguish etc.).  It's Strongs # 2347.

    So be careful what Bible you're reading and don't read every translation that is "tribulation" as meaning the great tribulation (though I agree that Mathew 24:29 means the persecution by Anti-Christ).
     
  18. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    It never fails to amaze me how so many Christians like to fight for the right to tribulate. *LOL

    Guess what, you are 2000 years too late and God doesnt need or want you to add to the sufferings of Christ on the cross. Christ already bore God's wrath when he took your place of judgement, that's why you are NOT appointed unto wrath anymore. so stop trying to add to the finished work of Christ, heaven really doesnt need your suffering.

    The whole problem with Christians who are anti-rapture/anti-pre-trib is that they have forgotten the Gospel -- which is a Gospel of peace and grace. They have forgotten that they are the righteousness of God in Christ, sons of the Most High God, joint-heirs with King Jesus -- that's why they cant believe that God is so good to spare them from the tribulation. Once you understnd God's grace and how much Christ has done for you and given you, then you will understnd why it is pre-trib. until then, you will not be able to have that revelation of God's goodness and amazing grace.
     
  19. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    +13
    Atheist
    US-Libertarian
    Wow.  Are we reading the same Bible?  I hate to be the harbringer of bad news but...

    Acts 5:41
    The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name.

    Acts 9:16 
    "I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."

    Romans 5:3
    Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance;

    Romans 8:17-18
    Now if we are children, then we are heirs–heirs of God and co­heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.  I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.

    2 Corinthians 1:5-8
    For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows.  If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer.  And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.  We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about the hardships we suffered in the province of Asia. We were under great pressure, far beyond our ability to endure, so that we despaired even of life.  

    Galations 3:4
    Have you suffered so much for nothing–if it really was for nothing?

    Ephesians 3:13
    I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

    Philippians 1:29
    For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

    Philippians 3:10
    I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,

    Colossians 1:24
    Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.

    1 Thessalonians 1:6
    You became imitators of us and of the Lord; in spite of severe suffering, you welcomed the message with the joy given by the Holy Spirit.

    1 Thessalonians 2:2
    We had previously suffered and been insulted in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in spite of strong opposition.

    1 Thessalonians 2:14
    For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews,

    2 Thessalonians 1:5
    All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.

    2 Timothy 1:8
    So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God,

    2 Timothy 1:12
    That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

    2 Timothy 2:9
    for which I am suffering even to the point of being chained like a criminal. But God's word is not chained

    2 Timothy 3:11
    persecutions, sufferings–what kinds of things happened to me in Antioch, Iconium and Lystra, the persecutions I endured. Yet the Lord rescued me from all of them.

    Hebrews 10:32
    Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering.

    Hebrews 13:3
    Remember those in prison as if you were their fellow prisoners, and those who are mistreated as if you yourselves were suffering.

    1 Peter 1:6
    In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials.

    1 Peter 2:19-21
    For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God.  But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.  To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

    1 Peter 3:14
    But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. "Do not fear what they fear; do not be frightened."

    1 Peter 4:12-16
    Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you.  But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed.  If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler.  However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.

    1 Peter 4:19
    So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.

    1 Peter 5:9-10
    Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.  And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

    Revelation 1:9
    I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    Revelation 2:10
    Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.


    ------------------------------

    Well, that's every NIV citation from the New Testament regarding Christian suffering.  Perhaps I should dig up the persecution scriptures now :(

    Sorry man, but Christians are supposed to suffer.  If you're not suffering, something may be wrong.  Simply looking at the lost world should cause us suffering.  Yet the scriptures reveal that we will suffer at the hands of the world. 

    Now let's look at wrath... (next post).
     
  20. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Andrew, First Century Christians (really, Christians throughout time) were thrown to the lions; surely, for them that was as bad as the "Great Tribulation"? Why didn't God rescue them?

    If I may ask, I would like to hear your comment on Luke 21:10-36; does the Bible you use, in verse 36 say "Kataxioo-counted-worthy", or "katischuo-have-strength"?

    Compare "Blueletterbible":
    http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1044518095-9553.html#36

    with "Crosswalk"
    http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=2729&version=kjv
     
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