Pre-Trib Isolates Christ's Olivet Discourse

[Davy]

One of the false doctrines of the pre-trib rapture view is that the Church is raptured to Heaven by Jesus prior... to the time of "great tribulation" He warned of in Matthew 24:21.

In that Matthew 24 chapter, and in the parallel Mark 13 chapter, Jesus shows the events of His gathering the Church like Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4, the asleep saints gathered from one end of heaven to the other, and the alive saints gathered from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (see Matt.24:31 compared with Mark 13:27)

The pre-trib rapture doctors isolate those signs Jesus gave there, and say it was meant only for the Jews, and not the Christian Church. One of the main reasons is because Jesus said this which set the time of His return and our gathering to Him...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


For this reason, the pre-trib rapture doctors isolate those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters from their interpretation of the time and order of our Lord's coming and gathering of His Church. They say instead Christ's Olivet Discourse was meant only for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church.

The Matt.24:29 and Mark 13:27 events matching what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church reveals our Lord Jesus was speaking of the SAME event that Paul taught about the time and gathering of the Church.

So those pre-trib rapture doctors behind that doctrine of men have purposefully isolated those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters from their teaching, and instead say Jesus was not speaking that to the Christian Church, or even a worse idea, that it was not meant for Gentile believers on Jesus, which is an even more ludicrous idea.

With such evidence as that of those pre-trib rapture doctors twisting proofs in God's Holy Writ to fit their own doctrine, why would any believer trust them still?

 

[Davy]

More evidence of the pre-trib rapture doctors twisting God's Word is their mis-teaching of the one 'taken' and the other left behind in Luke 17.

Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

There's one of the places in Scripture where the pre-trib rapture doctors get their "Left-behind" doctrines. They teach Jesus will come and rapture out the Church and take them with Him to Heaven, leaving everyone else behind on the earth.

In reality though, what did our Lord's disciples ask Him in that last verse there? "Where, Lord?" They wanted to know just where... the one shall be taken.

Then Jesus told them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together." Even that still kind of sounds like it would support men's pre-trib rapture theory, doesn't it? But actually it does not...

Just prior to our Lord mentioning that He comes after the tribulation, He said this:

Matt 24:28
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
KJV

That is the parallel to what He answered in Luke 17:37. Do you see that word "carcase" there? That means a 'dead' body, the fowls feasting on it. That is where the one 'taken' will be gathered.

So our Lord Jesus' Message there actually is that we, as believers on Him, DO NOT WANT TO BE THE FIRST ONE 'TAKEN'. We WANT to be left behind!

When this becomes realized by a follower of those pre-trib rapture doctors, they will wonder how they could have been duped by them for so long. And for those who continue to follow those pre-trib rapture doctors, they will weigh the costs of their souls with how much social perks the pre-trib rapture churches offer, and still hold to those false doctrines, even once they've understood how their doctors of theology twisted God's Word. And thus the dog is returned to his own vomit (2 Pet.2:21-22).

 

[seventysevens]

Only AFTER you begin to understand the 3 Harvests Barley -Wheat and Grapes will you really understand that there is a harvest of souls before the Great Trib , another harvest of souls after the GT begins and another Harvest/gathering of all of those together When Jesus returns

If you truly give some deep long meditation on this you would understand that people living during the Great trib will be enduring severe hardships and will be easy to relent and give in to take the mark 666 so they can buy food and not starve to death

Pre tribbers understand that to be Prepared for the worst and Expect for the best as Jesus tells us to do!

To put forth some macho mindset that you just have to pull your self up by your boot straps just fails in the real Great Trib - No food - No electricity - no fuel - No nothing - you not cannot buy anything but you cannot sell anything either -

Those who are against the harvests will be the first to fall prey to the mark 666 when they realize that it is much much more severe than they think it is

One of the false doctrines of the pre-trib rapture view is that the Church is raptured to Heaven by Jesus prior... to the time of "great tribulation" He warned of in Matthew 24:21.

In that Matthew 24 chapter, and in the parallel Mark 13 chapter, Jesus shows the events of His gathering the Church like Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4, the asleep saints gathered from one end of heaven to the other, and the alive saints gathered from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (see Matt.24:31 compared with Mark 13:27)

The pre-trib rapture doctors isolate those signs Jesus gave there, and say it was meant only for the Jews, and not the Christian Church. One of the main reasons is because Jesus said this which set the time of His return and our gathering to Him...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


For this reason, the pre-trib rapture doctors isolate those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters from their interpretation of the time and order of our Lord's coming and gathering of His Church. They say instead Christ's Olivet Discourse was meant only for the Jews, and not for Christ's Church.

The Matt.24:29 and Mark 13:27 events matching what Paul taught in 1 Thess.4 about the gathering of the Church reveals our Lord Jesus was speaking of the SAME event that Paul taught about the time and gathering of the Church.

So those pre-trib rapture doctors behind that doctrine of men have purposefully isolated those Matthew 24 and Mark 13 chapters from their teaching, and instead say Jesus was not speaking that to the Christian Church, or even a worse idea, that it was not meant for Gentile believers on Jesus, which is an even more ludicrous idea.

With such evidence as that of those pre-trib rapture doctors twisting proofs in God's Holy Writ to fit their own doctrine, why would any believer trust them still?

 

[Davy]

Only AFTER you begin to understand the 3 Harvests Barley -Wheat and Grapes will you really understand that there is a harvest of souls before the Great Trib , another harvest of souls after the GT begins and another Harvest/gathering of all of those together When Jesus returns

If you truly give some deep long meditation on this you would understand that people living during the Great trib will be enduring severe hardships and will be easy to relent and give in to take the mark 666 so they can buy food and not starve to death

Pre tribbers understand that to be Prepared for the worst and Expect for the best as Jesus tells us to do!

To put forth some macho mindset that you just have to pull your self up by your boot straps just fails in the real Great Trib - No food - No electricity - no fuel - No nothing - you not cannot buy anything but you cannot sell anything either -

Those who are against the harvests will be the first to fall prey to the mark 666 when they realize that it is much much more severe than they think it is

None of that philosophy supports a pre-trib rapture theory of man.

When Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 His coming AND gathering of the Church (saints) is "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", that is what He meant, and your doctrine would HAVE to align with what He said there. But it does not, which is why the pre-trib rapture theory is from man, and not from God.

 

[seventysevens]

Yes it most certainly does ! The first harvest is the pre trib harvest

You focus entirely on scripture that focuses it's attention on when Jesus returns , that is the 3rd harvest

Do you really think that all the scripture teaching harvests and How God wants it done is because God likes gardening ?
Man has been growing crops for thousand of years before God gave them rules about it

None of that philosophy supports a pre-trib rapture theory of man.

When Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 His coming AND gathering of the Church (saints) is "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", that is what He meant, and your doctrine would HAVE to align with what He said there. But it does not, which is why the pre-trib rapture theory is from man, and not from God.

 

[Davy]

Yes it most certainly does ! The first harvest is the pre trib harvest

You focus entirely on scripture that focuses it's attention on when Jesus returns , that is the 3rd harvest

Do you really think that all the scripture teaching harvests and How God wants it done is because God likes gardening ?
Man has been growing crops for thousand of years before God gave them rules about it

Jesus did not teach two or more returns, but only ONE. And that also aligns with the teaching of the OT prophets, and of His Apostles. For what you say to be true, then there would have to be definite proof written in God's Holy Writ, while there is definite proof written of His one-time advent of return at the end of this present world.

Heb 9:28-10:1
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV

 

[Choose Wisely]

None of that philosophy supports a pre-trib rapture theory of man.
When Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 His coming AND gathering of the Church (saints) is "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", that is what He meant, and your doctrine would HAVE to align with what He said there. But it does not, which is why the pre-trib rapture theory is from man, and not from God.

Please provide the exact verse that mentions the church in this gathering after the tribulation. I can't find it.

What translation do you use as I have looked at many and I just can't locate what you are saying?

 

[seventysevens]

You are mistaken
God taught it to the Israelite people just as he taught that there would be a messiah come to save Israel - You have to study and understand what God taught Israel , your missing this important matter comes from not wanting to study what God taught Israel , not studying what the Holy Feast days represent - Feast days for Israel are Gods Holy days - this is not taught in churches in America .
Americans don't want to learn it because they don't take the time to understand that Israeli laws , traditions come from God
Americans think they can understand Gods word without studying the culture and ways of life of the very people who wrote the scriptures as all Americans want to do is read English translations

Jesus did not teach two or more returns, but only ONE. And that also aligns with the teaching of the OT prophets, and of His Apostles. For what you say to be true, then there would have to be definite proof written in God's Holy Writ, while there is definite proof written of His one-time advent of return at the end of this present world.

Heb 9:28-10:1
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
KJV

 

[BABerean2]

The first harvest is the pre trib harvest

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

.

 

[seventysevens]

This post shows you have nary a clue about any of it

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

.

 

[Douggg]

In that Matthew 24 chapter, and in the parallel Mark 13 chapter, Jesus shows the events of His gathering the Church like Paul showed in 1 Thessalonians 4, the asleep saints gathered from one end of heaven to the other, and the alive saints gathered from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. (see Matt.24:31 compared with Mark 13:27)

Davy, you got that part about Matthew 24:31 wrong about being a referral to a gathering of the Church.

Matthew 24:31 can be matched with Ezekiel 39:28-29. Ezekiel 39:17-20 is the Armageddon feast of Revelation 19:17-18, and Ezekiel 39:21 is Jesus speaking having returned to earth. The rest of the chapter is Jesus recounting the 2000 year exile of the Jews and them gathered by Jesus back into the land in verse 28 and 29 - which is the gathering of the elect in Matthew 24:31.

Ezekiel 39:
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

_____________________________________________________________

The rapture/resurrection may or may not happen pre-70th week, but it happens before the Day of the Lord begins.

 

[BABerean2]

This post shows you have nary a clue about any of it

It was the Apostle Paul who said Christ is the "firstfruits" in 1 Corinthians 15:23, instead of me.
You are arguing with the Apostle Paul.

.

 

[seventysevens]

But you are not including but only 1/100 of the scripture needed to explain the matter and since you have never ever come close to that
you are miles away

It was the Apostle Paul who said Christ is the "firstfruits" in 1 Corinthians 15:23, instead of me.
You are arguing with the Apostle Paul.

.

 

[sdowney717]

There is only one coming again, only one second return of Christ, and He comes for His church which for the church at that time means their salvation from this evil world system.

A secret return and then another separate distinct later visible return is not what God says will happen. Peter is writing to those who are and will be SAVED, at the revealing of Jesus Christ onto this depraved world, when He comes in fiery wrath and judgement of those of this world.

1 Peter 1, here Peter is speaking of futurism, a looking forward to the righteous world to come, a new heaven and earth.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now these hearers were already believers as Peter acknowledges about them in the first few verses of this chapter. Regarding the timing of this coming great salvation to be revealed in the last time, Paul also wrote about, which happens when Christ returns to setup His kingdom on the earth where all the peoples of the nations will worship Him.
As Paul describes this last DAY of salvation it is for His people and no one else. And none of this has happened yet!

2 Thessalonians 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Both Peter and Paul are describing the very bad circumstances those who are of God are experiencing from the wicked, and then the destruction of the wicked and the salvation of God's people, at Christ's appearing, the SECOND TIME. There is no THIRD time.

 

[seventysevens]

There is only one 2nd coming of Jesus Christ return to earth
There is 3 total Harvest of born-again believers
If you don't believe that then you have not studied the bible well enough because it is deeply part of scripture

There is only one coming again, only one second return of Christ, and He comes for His church which for the church at that time means their salvation from this evil world system.

A secret return and then another separate distinct later visible return is not what God says will happen. Peter is writing to those who are and will be SAVED, at the revealing of Jesus Christ onto this depraved world, when He comes in fiery wrath and judgement of those of this world.

1 Peter 1, here Peter is speaking of futurism, a looking forward to the righteous world to come, a new heaven and earth.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Now these hearers were already believers as Peter acknowledges about them in the first few verses of this chapter. Regarding the timing of this coming great salvation to be revealed in the last time, Paul also wrote about, which happens when Christ returns to setup His kingdom on the earth where all the peoples of the nations will worship Him.
As Paul describes this last DAY of salvation it is for His people and no one else. And none of this has happened yet!

2 Thessalonians 1
3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer; 6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

Both Peter and Paul are describing the very bad circumstances those who are of God are experiencing from the wicked, and then the destruction of the wicked and the salvation of God's people, at Christ's appearing, the SECOND TIME. There is no THIRD time.

 

[sdowney717]

There is only one 2nd coming of Jesus Christ return to earth
There is 3 total Harvest of born-again believers
If you don't believe that then you have not studied the bible well enough because it is deeply part of scripture

In v15, Christ speaks that He is still yet to come as a THIEF.
The secret church rapture is taught as His coming as a thief, Don't wan't to be left behind idea! Yet Christ says he is still to come as a thief and here it is late in the game even during the 6th and 7th bowl judgements. YET the pre trib rapture teaches your gone long before this during the time when Christ comes as a thief prior to the great tribulation period.
Do you see the absurdity of this?


Revelation 16
Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

 

[seventysevens]

As I have said you do not want to study Gods Holy Feast Days - The reasons for them - You don't know anything about that Wheat Harvest -the Barley Harvest or the Grapes harvest Teachings
Which shows that you are only focused on NT parroting and not study what God taught
IF you did you would know better

In v15, Christ speaks that He is still yet to come as a THIEF.
The secret church rapture is taught as His coming as a thief, Don't wan't to be left behind idea! Yet Christ says he is still to come as a thief and here it is late in the game even during the 6th and 7th bowl judgements. YET the pre trib rapture teaches your gone long before this during the time when Christ comes as a thief.
Do you see this?


Revelation 16
Sixth Bowl: Euphrates Dried Up
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs comingout of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Seventh Bowl: The Earth Utterly Shaken
17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the earth. 19 Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath. 20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And great hail from heaven fell upon men, each hailstone about the weight of a talent. Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, since that plague was exceedingly great.

 

[sdowney717]

As I have said you do not want to study Gods Holy Feast Days - The reasons for them - You don't know anything about that Wheat Harvest -the Barley Harvest or the Grapes harvest Teachings
Which shows that you are only focused on NT parroting and not study what God taught
IF you did you would know better

The NT reveals more than the shadowing that is in the old testament.
You are in error since your holding to the shadows which means your understanding remains partially darkened, so you wont be enlightened by the NT, since your preferring the OT where the meaning is hidden. All should know the Christ came to reveal the TRUTH about these things, so don't hang onto the OC interpretations which are contrary to the NC. Paul did warn about JEWISH FABLES, MYTHS too.

Colossians 2:16-18 New King James Version (NKJV)
16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

 

[TribulationSigns]

This post shows you have nary a clue about any of it

Not really. Davy did show us the scripture. Where's yours? It is you who does not have clues...as usual.

 

[TribulationSigns]

But you are not including but only 1/100 of the scripture needed to explain the matter and since you have never ever come close to that
you are miles away

Says someone who rarely quote scripture to back him up. He is blind by his own three harvest theory.