Pre, Mid, Post?
- Thread starter Gideon4God
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Actually, I am "other" you didn't include the pre-wrath position. This position by far is the most sound, IMO.
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- Mar 18, 2003
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Basically, in a nutshell states that Christ's return will be during the tribulation, but just before the 7th seal is broken issuing in the "Day of the Lord." I suggest you read "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen.
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Yep! Me too.
1 Corinthians 15
51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Matthew 24
30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Thessalonians 4
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Seventh Trumpet: The Kingdom Proclaimed
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms[1] of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
I believe we await the last or seventh trumpet .
The Coming of the Son of Man
(4) 29 "Immediately "AFTER THE TRIBULATION" of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I'm post trib...all the way .
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It makes alot of sense. Could you post a link for a site that has a little more in depth teaching?
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The Church will not go through the Tribulation according to the Holy Bible.
Here is the Scripture to help you study out this doctrine.
Recognize the differences in the three raptures:
a. Old Testament saints at Christs resurrection (Matt. 27:50-53; Eph. 4:8-10)
b. New Testament saints at the rapture of the Church (1 Thes. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:50-55)
c. Tribulation saints right before the 2nd Advent of Christ (Matt. 24:29-31; Rev. 7:9-17; Rev. 14:14-16).
Here is the Scripture to help you study out this doctrine.
Recognize the differences in the three raptures:
a. Old Testament saints at Christs resurrection (Matt. 27:50-53; Eph. 4:8-10)
b. New Testament saints at the rapture of the Church (1 Thes. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:50-55)
c. Tribulation saints right before the 2nd Advent of Christ (Matt. 24:29-31; Rev. 7:9-17; Rev. 14:14-16).
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So have I. Which has me completely confused. Right now, I guess I'm one of those "pan" theory people.
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Gideon,
You can find Van Kampen's flagship work "The Sign" on the www.solagroup.org link. It is a challenging read for the prewrath position, but very, very good. It is about 600 pages.
Let us know what you think of it.
You can find Van Kampen's flagship work "The Sign" on the www.solagroup.org link. It is a challenging read for the prewrath position, but very, very good. It is about 600 pages.
Let us know what you think of it.
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The commentary on Revelations was very good.
I order too of Van Kempen's books, the Sign and the Fouth Reich. Has anyone here read them?
I order too of Van Kempen's books, the Sign and the Fouth Reich. Has anyone here read them?
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It really doesn't matter to me when the rapture is. I'm willing to go at any time and the sooner the better!
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Well, as you know, I have read the flagship book, "The Sign." I don't wanna scare you, but it was the most frightening book I have ever read. All of it is extremely possible. I had to read the 600 page book, three times before, I finally comprehended it.
It totally convinced me that this view is totally biblical. Unless, the Lord gives another supernatural revelation in the meantime, it appears pretty well on target. The only thing I am a little disappointed about was the limited discussion of the religious system, Mystery Bablyon, which helps the Anti-Christ come to power. Other than that, the book is excellent.
It totally convinced me that this view is totally biblical. Unless, the Lord gives another supernatural revelation in the meantime, it appears pretty well on target. The only thing I am a little disappointed about was the limited discussion of the religious system, Mystery Bablyon, which helps the Anti-Christ come to power. Other than that, the book is excellent.
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Note that we Christians are referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).
Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), and we must be his bride (Ephesians 5:30-32), and we must have the Spirit, for "if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Romans 8:9).
Does any scripture promise any part of the church a rapture before the tribulation? Doesn't Paul say that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4), and that Jesus' coming (parousia) to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:8)?
I believe that Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the same "coming" of Jesus and the same "gathering together" of the saints and the same "trumpet" and the same "clouds" as Matthew 24:29-31, which says all these will occur "after the tribulation." I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming or a 2nd rapture.
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