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Pre, mid, or posttrib rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Psalm6, May 1, 2002.

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  1. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

    +4
    United Ch. of Christ
    How ironic, I looked at the Greek for that word just a little while ago, and I got the opposite message by the multiple meanings of "wrath". I thought it was hell and felt mistaken.

    I do hope that we go through the tribulation, it would be hard and painful in every aspect. But on the other hand so many would be saved with representatives here.

    I do hope that we do get raptured before the trib, because, think about it if all Christians stayed here during the rapture, would they listen to us? I mean, seriously. After all this talk about them being left behind, and us going to heaven early. Perhaps we have done something very wrong, that will be very damaging in the future, if it is post-trib. But has God been leading us astray with the wrong info and letting His pastors preach the wrong message? And I hope that it is pre-trib, because almost 80% of all baptists, if forced to face the guillotine, or take a mark for the purpose of buying food, will take the mark. And I think the stats are higher than that. Would God put us through that foreseeing our failures, and how many would go to hell as a result of post-trib? Do you understand why I have so many doubts, and how it's so confusing that I just don't even care anymore. Whatever happens, to God be the glory.

    I am worried about the mark of the beast issue. So many of my Christian friends going to hell for that. It's very painful to think about. I'd rather put my faith in God, and have a peace that transcends understanding. I hope you can see what I mean by me not putting any more stress and worry into it. Please respect it and don't try to debate. Thanks TTYL Jesus loves you!
     
  2. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    There will be representatives. The 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, etc.

    The tribulation period is when God will test the world.
     
  3. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Note that it doesn't show anyone getting saved during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

    How will Christians react after all this talk of them being taken?

    Had God been leading ancient Israel astray with the wrong info and letting His prophets preach the wrong message? (Jeremiah 14:13-15, Ezekiel 13:2-16)

    I don't believe all of us will face the guillotine. I believe he will let some of us die before the tribulation begins (compare Isaiah 57:1), and let others of us flee to a place prepared in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6), where we will be protected from harm (Revelation 12:14-16). There must be a remnant of us who are still "alive and remain" at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes to gather us together (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Mark 13:26-27).

    Are we truly Christians if we would not be willing to die for Christ? "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it" (Luke 9:23-24).

    Peace and going through tribulation are not mutually exclusive: "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33).

    "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us" (Romans 8:35-37).

    "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

    "That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:7).

    "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life" (Revelation 2:10).

    "Unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake" (Philippians 1:29).

    "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

    "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Timothy 3:12).

    "I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us" (Romans 8:18).

    "For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory" (2 Corinthians 4:17).

    "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit" (Revelation 14:12-13).
     
  4. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    Not reaaalllyyyy...

    "And the seventh angel sounded, and there arose a loud voice saying 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Messiah; and He will reign forever and ever. ...And the nations were enraged, thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to thy bond-servants and the prophets and to the saints..." (Rev11:15-18)

    Time came for the "dead to be judged"? Doesn't that happen at the END OF THE 1000-yr-REIGN???

    Looks like a bit of the "double-narrative", the "twice-told-tale" (just as Genesis tells of the Creation twice...)

    :)
     
  5. Seed

    Seed New Member

    40
    +0

    You LEFT OUT something why???

    Revelation 11:15-19 and will show what YOU DID NOT ADD!

    15. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!''


    16. And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God ,
    17. saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because You have taken Your great power and reigned.




    Do these people sound familiar?

    Rev.5:8-10. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
    9. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation ,
    10. and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth .''


    Bro, You need to ask yourself a question . Why are the "Elders" in Rev.5:8-10 able to say they are "Redeemed by the blood."? Can thee angels say that? No. Can the Apostles say that? Yes, but theres 24, and not only that they are from "every tribe and tongue and people and nation." Now you've got a problem here, dont you? Thee Apostles were not from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

    You must take into account that there will be "Tribulation saints" (they will be saved DURING the Tribulation, they are the souls under thee alter when martyerd) For these people (the living ones), the book of Revelation is going to be HAPPENING, and that book (Rev.) will be there guide.

    Let me show you something.

    Do you know what this is? Rev. 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.''

    It's BEFORE the battle of Armageddon, Christ does not come back till after it right? (according to BOTH of our views) So why is this said? Admonishment,encouragement! To who Trib. saints.

    The verses you have pointed to are a proclamation, a synopsis of events, this is the "ending" of the Tribulation, and the looking forward to Eternity being spoken of.

    There is no "times" given in this book, only mark points; some things happen two chapters later and yet we dont know how long it took- John was viewing this, not timeing it.


    The events ARE in order, you just have to read them without trying to put "time" into them.


    God Bless ya BRO!!


    :bow: Jesus
     
  6. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    The events are not in order. not as you think anyway, I doesn't happen 1, 2, 3. Some of the trumpets have already sounded, seals are opened.......which ones though, wormwood is chernobyl? meaning bitter waters? Killed alot of people..and still is.....hmmmmmm, very intriging...
     
  7. Seed

    Seed New Member

    40
    +0

    I dont see what your point is here. What I pointed out is clear, Can you explain.


    Did I say He would not indwell Tribulation converts? No.

    He will not have a hand in "restraing the forces of evil" if you will, but YES He will indwell and help the Tribulation converts.


    Yes "new believers-Trib.converts" will be on the earth. But todays church- The Bride, will be in Heaven.

    Question: What then could hold back satan from ruling the earth? a man? no. me, you? no. WHAT? The Holy Spirit


    I agree, He didn't! The Rapture is NOT the second coming, He does NOT set a foot on the ground. Thats why we meet Him "in the air" Thes. 4:16




    [/QUOTE]
    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come shortly before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Shortly before the 2nd coming, I believe the Lord will likewise through his Spirit reveal to his prophets in the church the day of his coming. I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait only 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12). [/QUOTE]


    Aside from Scripture all I see is speculation,opinion.



    This is an admonition To be watchfull and ready. Why? because we should be ready and waiting. It does not mean if your not ready you dont go, it means you won't be found in shame-"naked." and it does not mean you will be "told" when it will happen.


    Look at the church, read church history and compare. we are in the Philadelphian period......



    OK, THIS IS TO ALL.... IN WRITING THIS POST I HAVE HAD A REPLY TO MY LAST ONE. I SEE THAT I AM WASTING MY TIME HERE. I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME TO DO ALL THIS, TAKE CARE OF MY FAMILY, CONTINUE IN MY PERSONAL STUDIES ETC. ETC. THIS JUST TAKES TOO MUCH TIME (ME,HOURS). I SAY GOD BLESS! AND, WILL SEE YA IN HEAVEN, WHERE WE THEN WILL HAVE THE TIME TO SAY "I TOLD YOU SO"

    SORRY! NOT CHICKENING OUT, JUST SEEMS FRUITLESS. SAY WHAT YOU PLEASE...I FORGIVE YA!


    ALL OF US, :bow: :bow: :bow:ing TO JESUS!!!

    See ya guys :wave: and again God bless!!!
     
  8. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Some say the 24 elders have to be the church because at one time they sing a song which says "thou hast redeemed US" (Revelation 5:9). But note that at that time the 24 elders are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); I believe they are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, offer up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Compare Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

    Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be the church because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God? (Revelation 5:8-9)

    What verse says the 24 elders are from every tribe and tongue and people and nation?

    Is there a verse which refers to "Tribulation saints," and says they aren't part of the church? Doesn't the church include every believer? "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

    While the Bible shows Christians in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), note that it doesn't expressly show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

    Lest any unbelievers get complacent and think "Oh, when I see all that Antichrist stuff then I'll repent and believe," I think we should warn them: "Then it may be too late; God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

    Some believe the tribulation may be for some Christians, but not for the bride of Christ. But there are no Christians outside of the bride, for all believers form a single body (Ephesians 4:4-6), which is the bride of Christ (Ephesians 5:30-32). We Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost, saved in no different way than Christians who have died or will die before the tribulation. Many of us will be slain for the word of God and cry out to the Lord (Revelation 6:9-10); we will have washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb (Revelation 7:14); we will have the testimony of Jesus Christ (Revelation 12:17) and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12) and will be in the Lord (Revelation 14:13); if we die, we will enter into heaven itself (Revelation 15:2); some of us will be beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God, and we will all live and reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4).

    It's true that only God can hold back evil, but he can do this through his angels (for examples, Revelation 20:1-3, 12:7-9). God himself cannot be "taken out of the way" (2 Thessalonians 2:7) like angels and nations can be, for he is omnipresent.

    The restrainer could be the archangel Michael, but it may not be. In Daniel 12:1 "stand up" (amad) may not mean "stand down" because amad is used consistently in Daniel (8:22, 23, 25; 11:2, 3, 4, 7, 14, 20, 21) to refer to the rising up of a power. Daniel 12:1 probably refers to the 2nd coming; Michael may be the archangel referred to in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

    The restrainer may be another angel, AND a political power that keeps the Antichrist from taking over the Middle East and Europe: in Paul's day it would have been the Roman Empire; today it would be the US. The US has to be removed as a superpower in the world before the Antichrist can take over the Middle East and Europe.

    I believe we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

    Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a U-turn coming of Jesus whereby he comes only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But Matthew 24:29-31 doesn't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 is also not the 2nd coming?

    1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

    "And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't saying "Watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour" or "Watch for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation," but "Stay awake with me for one hour," and "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

    Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6).

    Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

    Note that in the 7 letters which begin Revelation, Jesus doesn't refer to 7 future "church periods," but only to 7 present churches "which are in Asia" (Revelation 1:11). I believe the 7 letters to them are "the things which are" in the passage which says: "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Revelation 1:19). It's not until after the letters that Jesus says: "Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).

    Note that no verse says the rapture takes us any higher than the clouds.
     
  9. Seed

    Seed New Member

    40
    +0

    Some say these are answered prayers, I personally do not know. It could be that of answered prayers or the prayers of the Tribulation saints.

    One thing is for sure the angles in this scene CAN NOT SING THIS SONG. It is a song sang TO Christ.

    Rev.5:9-10.
    9. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation ,
    10. and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth .''

    I'M SORRY BUT ANGLES CAN NOT SAY THEY HAVE BEEN REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD. Nor can they BE this, "out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

    And this is a promise to the CHURCH,
    10. and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth .''

    How does one twist or get around these CLEAR cut verses?
    THIS IS THE CHURCH, IN HEAVEN, BEFOREANY EVENTS OF THE TRIBULATION.


    These are cherubim angles more then likely, they have the same features as the ones in Ezekiel 10:1-22. They are not the church.


    Revelation 5:8-9. 8. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

    As I said previously the angles can not say this! This is the Church singing this song!



    Revelation 6:9-11. When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held . 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?''
    11. And a white robe was given to each of them ; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed .

    "And a white robe was given to each of them"

    Isn't that strange? Their being "given" white robes and look here in Rev.4:4

    Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads .

    Yet these ones already have robes AND CROWNS! And they are not crying out for vengence either.

    Here they are again near the end of the Tribulation.

    Revelation 20:4. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands . And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    These people are Tribulation saints.


    Do you see it or not? do you agree or not?


    I will not spend the time on the others unless you see this. Sorry Bro I dont want to waste the time.


    G.B.!!


    :bow: Jesus
     
  10. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    So what's your point, Seed ? Does this mean you are pre-mid-post ?
     
  11. Seed

    Seed New Member

    40
    +0
    Im pre
     
  12. RKF

    RKF Member

    408
    +0
    Why? Are preparing for any scenario?
     
  13. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
    +0
    Christian
    Seed:
    I believe they can. Note again that at the time they are singing that song, the 24 elders are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); I believe they are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, offer up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Compare Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

    Note that the 4 beasts, which you agree are angels, also offer up the song of the redeemed to God (Revelation 5:8-9).

    Note that angels can also be described as having bodies and wearing white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12), so the description of the 24 elders doesn't require they be men.

    Note that even the locusts can wear victory crowns (in Greek "stephanos," Revelation 9:7), and the devil himself wears 7 crowns (in Greek "diadema," Revelation 12:3), so I believe the ruling angels in heaven wear crowns, for they are princes (Daniel 10:13, 12:1) and they too have their victories (for example, Revelation 12:7-9).

    How could we Christians who will be in the tribulation after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in his body?
     
  14. pete

    pete New Member

    10
    +0
    It is important to understand that the "coming"(parousia)of Matt.24:37 and 39 is the same coming described by Jesus in verse 27:"For as the lightning cometh out of the east,and shineth even unto the west;so shall also the coming of the Son of man be".Hence, the coming of Christ,at which he takes some earth and destroys others,is a great cosmic,cataclysmic event.There is nothing secret about it.In fact,in the preceding verse,we have Jesus warning about any kind of secret coming:"Wherefore if they shall say unto you,Behold,he is in the desert;go not forth:behold,he is in the secret chambers;believe it not"Matt.24:26.There is no distinction in Scripture between a secret rapture of the church and the revelation of Christ seven years later.
     
  15. Gerry

    Gerry Jesus Paid It All

    +10
    I am glad to see this comedy thread posted here. Sometimes life gets so serious that we find it difficult to smile. But thank God some people have taken the time to write such hilarious ideas about such a serious subject. Thanks for this. I will be smiling for a while. lololololol!!!
     
  16. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    None of the above. I think the pre-wrath explanation makes the most sense and harmonizes best with scripture.

    As an aside: There is no such thing in scripture as the 7 year tribulation period. It is possible that Daniel's 70th week has not yet occurred, which means a 7 year period of prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. But there is no scriptural support to call it the "tribulation period," since there's no compelling reason to lump anything specifically into the first 3 1/2 years to make it qualify for that label. All of the specific information we have about what occurs starts at what would be the mid-point of that 7 year period -- and even then that's assuming that there is a 7 year period, and not just a 3 1/2 year period that starts with the abomination of desolation and the revealing of the man of sin.

    Pre-wrath is closest to post-trib in that the rapture occurs immediately after the great tribuation. But it assumes the great tribulation is cut short of the 3 1/2 year period. How short? There are some clues as to how short the great tribulation cannot be and how long it cannot be, but outside those, nobody knows. That's one reason we will not know the day or hour of the return of our Lord.

    But no matter which view is correct, we'll all find out eventually. ;)
     
  17. npetreley

    npetreley pumpkin sailor

    +2
    Nope. And I have a prooftext to show that this is incorrect.

    See? Faith in Christ means we DO have a reservation. ;)

    This is a joke. This is only a joke. If this had been a meaningful message, you would have been instructed to read it. We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion
     
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