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Pre, mid, or posttrib rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Psalm6, May 1, 2002.

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  1. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    Thanks Acts.:) (I'm still trying to find out who said it)

    I agree 100%.
  2. RKF

    RKF Member

    Yes but that is the wrath of God happening, the tribulation is not the wrath of God, it's satans, when he is thrown outta heaven Michael says woe to the inhabitants of te earth for the devil has come to you full of wrath.

    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
  3. RKF

    RKF Member

    Said what?
  4. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    Faith in Christ is not belief without proof, it is trust without reservation.
  5. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    The context of Rev 20 is post-Trib. It only mentions "the Tribulation Martyrs". Those who have "been beheaded, have not taken the mark nor worshipped the beast". Contextually, the "First Resurrection" is only these.

    But verse 6 says "blessed and holy are they who have a part in the 'First', against these the second death has no power". This opens the door for the possibility that he was talking about ALL DECEASED CHRISTIANS.

    I don't think you can make the case that "The FIRST RESURRECTION is a CONTINUOUS THING, happening CONTINUOUSLY since Christ". Clearly, the Trib-Martyrs spend some time lamenting under the altar---and THEN are resurrected. In ONE EVENT, called "The First Resurrection"...

    It seems important what John does NOT say in this---he does NOT say "The FIRST-of-the-two-POST-TRIB-resurrections", he does NOT say "Blessed and holy is he who has a part in this First Resurrection ALONG WITH all-those-who-were-resurrected-seven-years-earlier".

    It really looks like John was envisioning only ONE "Great First Resurrection", only TWO great resurrections in total. The first at the end of the Tribulation, the second at the end of the 1000 year reign... (Remember, the saints who raised with Jesus, died again. They were NOT changed to immortal bodies as in 1Cor15:50ff)

    I cannot explain how John would have called the "Post-Trib-Resurrection", the "FIRST", if there had been a GREATER one SEVEN YEARS EARLIER...

    (Or 3-&#189 years, or...)
  6. Seed

    Seed New Member

    I dont know where you get the "Great" thing at. The Rapture is NOT "The day of the Lord," as in the Second coming when He sets his feet down on thee earth. There are "Days" NOT just one day.


    1 Thessalonians 5:1 & 2 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you.
    2. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night .

    Now, Why would he come like a thief in the night? If there was only one event? This is the Rapture! Why do not all see Him?


    See look, are not ALL supposed to see Him?

    7. Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him , and they also who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him . Even so, Amen.

    There are TWO events here.

    Here is what (you) are refering to:

    Revelation 19:11-17 Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
    12. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
    13. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
    14. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
    15. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Am I right? This is the second coming, not the Rapture.

    This do it for ya?

    :bow: Jesus
  7. Seed

    Seed New Member

    Revelation 6:16. and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb !
    17. "For the great day of His wrath has come , and who is able to stand?''

    It's not satans wrath. Though he is one wrathful dude because he knows his time is short.

    :bow: Jesus
  8. Seed

    Seed New Member

    Are you implying soul sleep then? That is what your saying.

    No, it's not! It does not have to say "this is a continuation of the first resurrection."

    Look, Luke 23:42 & 43 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.''
    43. And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise .'' (also called Abrahams Bosom)

    This man never came back and walked the earth like I think your saying here,

    So where did he go? Ephesians 4:8-10 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts to men.''
    9. (Now this, "He ascended'' what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
    10. He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

    The "First Resurrection" STARTED with Christ and end's before "the second death" of the "Great White Throne of Judgment."

    Remember,2 Corinthians 5:5-9 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
    6. Therefore we are always confident , knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord .

    Do you see a time gap there? I dont.

    7. For we walk by faith, not by sight.
    8. We are confident , yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 9. Therefore we make it our aim,

    I dont see a future tense there

    whether present or absent , to be well pleasing to Him.

    That's what it is---->"present or absent"

    Thats correct! Why? Because they accept Christ during the Tribulation.

    How do you explain this Ben? THIS HAPPENS BEFORE THE SEALS ARE OPENED!

    Revelation 5:9 & 10 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation ,
    10. and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall -->reign<-- on the earth .''

    Are you going to tell me Revelation is not in chronlogical order? IT IS!

    Why is the Church NOT mentioned from ch.6-19????

    Cuz' were in Heaven BABY, Heaven!!! :clap:

    :bow: Jesus!!! God bless ya Bro!!!
  9. Yauming

    Yauming Member

    Revelation 1

    6To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
    7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
    and every eye will see him,
    even those who pierced him;
    and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

    Hmmm.... and "every eye will see him". I guess that means everyone doesn't it?

    lol :)

  10. Seed

    Seed New Member

    So what then is your view and point Yauming? What do you want me to say to a one liner with a lol on the end? :confused:

    :bow: Jesus
  11. RKF

    RKF Member

    No Revelation is not in order..
  12. Martin

    Martin Senior Veteran

    In answer to the original question...
    I would have to say that I don't know.....because the Bible is not clear on the matter. That's why there is such a debate over the issue and the point will be debated until the events actually happen.
  13. Seed

    Seed New Member


    The Book of Revelation IS in chronological order. If you say it is not, then YOU bare the burden of proof! What evidence do you see that say's it's not? I was told that as a kid, I have looked at it carefully (contexts, events etc.)and I assure you that that is wrong, examine it.

    I find that the people that have "set" it in the order they want (out of order) did it to fit THEIR agenda and theology. I see it as it is and dont believe Christ would give His church a puzzel to "try" to interpret or to mis-lead us. We do that ourselves in re-shaping HIS word.

    Show me the money Bro! You have the burden of proof.

    If you can't, then who's to believe ya? Not me, I take it at face value!

    Did you read ANY thing else I shared with ya? Did you see that you were wrong here:

    Originally posted by RKF
    Yes but that is the wrath of God happening, the tribulation is not the wrath of God, it's satans

    Revelation 6:16. and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb !
    17. "For the great day of His wrath has come
    , and who is able to stand?''

    Here's another one for ya:

    Rev.3:10 "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world , to test those who dwell on the earth.

    It's not satans wrath. Though he is one wrathful dude because he knows his time is short.


    BTW, This is a debate, not a fight! This is what this forum is for.

    So, God Bless Ya! and check it out OK? :)

    :bow: Jesus
  14. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

    Seed -

    God bless you, brother!!! :)
  15. Seed

    Seed New Member

    Dude! You have got THEE COOLEST avtar!!!

    God bless you to Bro!!! :wave:

    :bow: Jesus
  16. Josiah

    Josiah Super suction ears away!

  17. Seed

    Seed New Member


    Thought I'd say Hi! :wave: Honesty, AWESOME!! Yes, we will find out in the end.


    :bow: Jesus
  18. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    I think that Revelation 6:16-17 could be the terrified hyperbole of the unsaved, that they can't actually see Christ in the sky sitting on a throne, and that the 6th seal may not actually be God's wrath. Those in heaven don't say God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

    I think John could be seeing a cataclysmic event that precedes the trumpets, which may be an historically unprecedented volcanic eruption which will trigger devastating earthquakes all around the world, and which will fill the atmosphere with ash, blocking the light from the sun and making the moon appear blood red. I think this could be accompanied (possibly triggered) by a storm of large meteorites, "falling stars," which will hit the ground, and atmospheric explosions of those which don't make it to the ground.

    When they see these horrors, the unsaved will no doubt believe they're all going to die, as "seeing the face of God" means death (Exodus 33:20), and that these events are God's wrath. But God's wrath may not be come in the 6th seal, nor in the 7th, nor in the 7 trumpets. God's wrath may not be come until the final stage of the great tribulation, the 7 vials (Revelation 16).

    The vials contain God's wrath (Revelation 16), yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

    I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

    I don't believe the one holding back the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the church because many Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

    "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

    I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Jesus is speaking to the same people in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

    Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

    Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come shortly before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

    Shortly before the 2nd coming, I believe the Lord will likewise through his Spirit reveal to his prophets in the church the day of his coming. I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait only 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

    Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    Is there a verse which refers to "the church age" and says it ends before the tribulation? Isn't the church forever? "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Ephesians 3:21).

    Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

    Note that the Bible doesn't say the 24 elders are the church. They are more likely angelic rulers as ancient as the 4 beasts (Revelation 4:6), who with the 4 beasts have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9).

    Some say the 24 elders have to be the church because at one time they sing a song which says "thou hast redeemed US" (Revelation 5:9). But note that at that time the 24 elders are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); I believe they are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, offer up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Compare Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

    Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be the church because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God? (Revelation 5:8-9)

    On what basis are those in Revelation 4-5 considered to be the church but those in Revelation 14-15 are not?

    We find Christians referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4).

    How could we Christians who will be in the tribulation after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13) not be in the church?

    Some would require the specific word "church" to be used to describe the Christians in the tribulation before they would consider them to be part of the church. But the word "church" isn't used in Chapters 19-21 of Revelation, or anywhere in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Do some then believe these chapters and books don't refer to the church?

    Jesus said "I am THE resurrection" (John 11:25). The question for us is, when are we who believe in Jesus first resurrected?

    I believe no one but Christ has yet been resurrected into an immortal body, because it says "every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23). Christ's 2nd coming has not yet occurred, so no one but Christ can have yet been resurrected into an immortal body.

    Secondly, it says ALL "they that are Christ's" will be resurrected and changed at the 2nd coming: "Every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... We shall ALL be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 51-53). We that are Christ's are all resurrected at the same time, so no one but Christ can have yet been resurrected into an immortal body.

    Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

    Again, note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1), and none of the vials are directed at us Christians.

    I believe the day of the Lord is the day we wait and watch for, and will rejoice in:

    "Waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

    "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

    "We are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus" (2 Corinthians 1:14).

    Paul said the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) and the Lord said he will come as a thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and there's no 3rd coming of the Lord.

    Again, I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together: 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 1 Corinthians 15:23, 52. I don't believe the scriptures teach more than one 2nd coming, more than one gathering together of the church, or more than one last trump.

    While the Bible shows Christians in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4), note that it doesn't expressly show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

    Lest any unbelievers get complacent and think "Oh, when I see all that Antichrist stuff then I'll repent and believe," I think we should warn them: "Then it may be too late; God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time.
  19. Defender of the Faith 777

    Defender of the Faith 777 Well-Known Member

    United Ch. of Christ
    Did I explain my views on the rapture yet? I don't actually care anymore. Really, you can be angry at me if you want to, but whatever happens is God's plan, to Him be the glory and I'll go along with it either way. I'll worry about today, for tomorrow has it's own problems.

    Here's pre-trib support:

    Sodom and Gomorrah
    1 Thessalonians 1:10

    Here's post-trib support:

    Noah and the flood (he was given a means to survive)
    Matthew 13
    Malachi 4:5

    Have fun, I pondered for weeks, and now I just don't really care anymore. Let God be glorified in the end. Romans 8:28 is my motto.
  20. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    Note that the Bible says the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrha was a type of the eternal judgment of hellfire (Jude 7), not a type of the tribulation.

    "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

    Here Paul refers to a form of God's wrath which is completely opposed to salvation, that is, those who obtain salvation can in no way be appointed to this form of God's wrath. Because we see many saved people in the tribulation, this form of wrath cannot be the tribulation.

    The word "wrath" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is the Greek word orge, which is used in the NT to refer to the entire spectrum of the forms of God's wrath, from a single angry look by Jesus: "He had looked round about on them with anger (orge)" (Mark 3:5), to the eternal horror of the lake of fire: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11). If we who are believers do wrong, I believe Jesus can still look angrily at us without our losing our salvation: "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" (Revelation 3:19); and I believe we Christians can go through the entire tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4) without losing our salvation, for nothing we experience on this earth, no suffering or death of any kind, can rob us of our eternal life in Christ (Romans 8:35-39) and our complete deliverance from the wrath of the lake of fire (Revelation 14:10), to which all unbelievers are appointed (John 3:36).
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