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Pre, mid, or posttrib rapture?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Psalm6, May 1, 2002.

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  1. Psalm6

    Psalm6 New Member

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    I think God will rapture us out before the 7 year tribulation period, because it says we will be saved out of the time of Jacob's trouble. But what does everyone else think about the rapture's timing? And what verses do you have to support it?
     
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  2. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I agree Psalm6. There are quite a few. 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2, Rev 3, are some.
     
  3. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    I favor pre-trib because scripture as I understand it rules out a post trib. Mid trib has support, particularly if you view the events in revelation as being chronological, but I see the trumpets and vials being concurrent (happening about the same time) and that signicantly weakens the mid trib position so I favor pre-trib as being better supported. This view has pretty good support from understanding the traditions of Rosh Hashanna (Jewish feast which forshadows the judgments of God) and Jewish wedding customs.
     
  4. RKF

    RKF Member

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    The tribulation is the wrath of satan not God's wrath, Rev., states that he the anti-christ will make war with the saints. if we are not here then who are the saints?
     
  5. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    We are not the only saints who ever were or ever will be. The trib saints are exactly that, those people who are righteous during the tribulation period. Has nothing to do with the rapture. All of the saints of the first century are now dead. Who then are the saints of the fifth century? If the first century saints are gone how can we have saints in the fifth century?

    See what I mean?
     
  6. ZoneChaos

    ZoneChaos Senior Veteran

    +21
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    Revelation also clearly states that the wrath brought about during the Tribulation is from God...
     
  7. RKF

    RKF Member

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    where does it say this? please give me scriptures
    Revelation also clearly states that the wrath brought about during the Tribulation is from God...

    There is a war in heaven in which the devil is thrown out of heaven for good and then Michael says woe to the inhabitant of the earth for the devil is full of wrath
     
  8. Willis Deal

    Willis Deal Member

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    Wrath of God:

    Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
    Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

    Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

    Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

    Rev 15:7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

    Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

    Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    By my count that is nine verses mentioning the wrath of God.
     
  9. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Yes but none meantion the tribulation, that all happens of the day of the Lord
     
  10. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

    Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

    Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

    Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time
     
  11. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Are the great multitude of us Christians in the tribulation "of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (Revelation 7:9, 14) all Jacob?

    I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together:

    "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

    "The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

    "We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

    "They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

    I don't believe the scriptures teach more than one 2nd coming, more than one gathering together of the church, or more than one last trump.

    In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, I believe Paul makes clear that the apostasy and abomination of desolation must occur before the day Jesus comes to gather us together, for Jesus' coming to gather us together must destroy the Antichrist (verse eight).

    Note that Revelation 3:10 doesn't promise the church a pre-trib rapture, but simply promised the 1st century church of Philadelphia that it would be kept from the hour of trial, which was probably a great persecution in their own time.

    Some teach that the Jewish feasts of the Old Testament require a pre-trib rapture, but can they cite any scriptures or ancient Jewish sources about the feasts that would require a pre-trib rapture?

    Some teach that purported ancient Jewish wedding customs require a pre-trib rapture, but they don't cite the ancient Jewish sources for any wedding customs that would require a pre-trib rapture.

    Be careful not to be led astray by any "traditions" or teachings of men that are not in the Bible itself (Colossians 2:8, 2 Timothy 4:3-4).

    Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

    The vials contain God's wrath (Revelation 16), yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).
     
  12. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +374
    Christian
    "And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded, and had not worshipped the beast nor received the mark on their forehead or hand, and they came to life and reigned with Him for a thousand years." Those martyred in the Tribulation are resurrected at the end. Rev20:4

    "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were complete." Referencing the SECOND RESURRECTION, which is for sinners, for their judgment and casting-into-Hell". Rev20:5

    "This is the FIRST RESURRECTION". The "raising" of the Tribulation Martyrs is the FIRST RESURRECTION. The SECOND RESURRECTION is a thousand years later, for judgment to Hell. Christians will not be judged (Jn5:24)

    "Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection, over these the second death has no power, but they wll be priests of od and of Christ and wil reign with Him for a thousand years." Rev20:6

    ---wait---is it possible that there will be more than Tribulation Martyrs in THE FIRST RESURRECTION?

    Only two "great-resurrections" are mentioned. The one at the end of the Tribulation, the start of the Reign---and then, the SECOND, at the END of the Reign, unto judgment.

    "We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall RISE FIRST. THEN, we who are alive and remain shall be "HARPAZO-CAUGHT-UP" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord." 1Thess4:15-17

    The "FIRST RESURRECTION", the first of the TWO GREAT RESURRECTIONS, occurs at the END OF THE TRIBULATION.

    We who are alive and remain shall not precede the dead---for the DEAD ARE RAISED FIRST...

    If the "RAPTURE" occurs ANY time but at the END of the Tribulation, then please help me understand what the "First Resurrection", is?

    John knew very well when the Rapture would occur. Paul knew when the Ratpure would occur. Can we tell from their writings?

    Is the "First Resurrection" only for TRIB-MARTYRS? Or is it for ALL DEAD CHRISTIANS?

    If only for MARTYRS, then why is it called "First Resurrection", if there had already been a FAR GREATER, mass-resurrection seven years earlier???
     
  13. rollinTHUNDER

    rollinTHUNDER Veteran

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    United States
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    Married
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    I believe that part of God's wrath is unleashing Satan to bring judgment and destruction to the unbelieving world that is left. Before this time, God limited Satan to certain things that he was allowed to do to the inhabitants of the earth and especially His elect. God has also been known to use other nations to bring His judgment on certain peoples. It is very possible that God will bring judgment through Satan. But I believe that God will also protect a small remnant of Jews, as sheep through the tribulation, so that they can re-populate the earth in the millenium. Everyone left, are goats.
     
  14. RKF

    RKF Member

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    God's wrath unleashing satan, so your saying that God is joining forces with satan. I don't think so...God's wrath according to scripture doesn't even begin until the day of the Lord, which is at the end. I don't see anywhere that God put limitations of the devil except when it came to Job. That was to show Job as an example as to what the Lord as for us who keep our faith in him, and the reward for when we do. The devil is unleashed now, look around you, this world has run amok, in America alone we kill 4400 unborn babies a day, drugs are rampant, gays have more rights then christians do, the government has taken away more of our rights in the last year then people even realize. As for the millenium there will be plenty of people left.
     
  15. Seed

    Seed New Member

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    Well, this would be allot of quoting so I will just throw in a penny.

    "Wrath"

    Rev.6:14-17, shows the wrath of God beginning, when the seals are opened.

    14. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
    15. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
    16. and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb !
    17. "For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"


    Well this shows the wrath part.

    Are WE to go through His wrath?

    1 Thes.5:9&10 9. For God did not appoint us to wrath , but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
    10. who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.


    How do we know when we are "taken Up"? Something happens first.

    2 Thessalonians 2

    1. Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
    2. not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
    3. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
    4. who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God
    .

    5. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
    6. And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
    7. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8. And then the lawless one will be revealed , whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
    10. and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    The two "He that restrains," is in the Greek in the feminine and the mascline. So that which restrains would be the Holy Spirit and the Bride of Christ, The Church. For sure the Holy Spirit as His work of restraining the powers that be in this world will be on hold if you will, so satan can do his thing. The church being second is debated, But I believe if the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way so are we, He said He would never leave us or forsake us. So I believe it to be the Holy Spirit and the Church.


    Now we know that satan will do this- "so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
    he does this in the middle if the Tribulation, well there goes post Trib. view, because then we could look forward 3 and one half years and say "here is when Christ will come." The Bible does not teach that, it teaches "no man knoweth thee hour" and "like a theif in the night."


    In Revelation chapter 1:19 John is told "Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this.

    seen, The things he just saw and heard from ch.1:1-19

    the things which are, The Churches and the church age Chapters 2 & 3.

    the things which will take place after this After the church age.


    Now look at Chapter 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this."

    After these things What things? What He just revealed to John.

    "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this ."

    This means He will show him (John) things that will take place after those things- AFTER the church age.

    Now where is he taken? into heaven! By what means? "A voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here."

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout." How about "come up here"?

    "like a trumpet" Revelation 1:10&11 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet ,
    11. saying, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,'' This is Jesus.


    Now in Chapter 4 We go into the Throne room of Heaven what do we see?

    Rev. 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads.

    These are representatives of the church. I believe 12 from the Old Testament & 12 from the New Testament. They wear the same clothing and have crowns, which we will have.

    You say, "well that dont prove anything about us being in heaven." Go to capter 5

    Revelation 5:8-14. Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
    9. And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals; for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation ,

    Just those 24 Elders? They were not from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. But the Church is.

    10. and have made us kings and priests to our God; and we shall reign on the earth .''


    How are we kings and priests? We are joint heirs with Christ!


    11. Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders ; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands ,
    12. saying with a loud voice: "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom, and strength and honor and glory and blessing!''


    So we see the Church in Heaven WITH Christ!

    The "Church" is not mentioned again until Ch.19 When we are to reign wiyh Christ.

    Chapter 6 the seals are opened and the Tribulation begins.

    So am I saying it's Mid Trib. NO, the Anti-christ comes into power at the beginning of the Trib. after the Rapture. Why? The Holy Spirit is removed as I stated above. also it's the perfect time to do so.



    Reguarding the "First Resurrection" This STARTED with Christ and end's before "the second death" of the "Great White Throne of Judgment."



    Hope this helps, I tried to tuch on the things I remember throughout the thread.


    :bow: Jesus
     
  16. RKF

    RKF Member

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    Great day of the Lord still happens at the end not the beginning
     
  17. stnkyminky

    stnkyminky Trying to stay on the narrow road

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    verse 33 speaks of the wise teaching many. My question is if all of the Christians are raptured who will be left that is wise (in God's terms)? Personally I believe in near end trib rapture. I believe that will be here in order to represent the Lord. During this time, we will be greatly persecuted and hated. As the scripture says some will be martyred.

    I hope that pre happens, but I don't think so.
     
  18. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I believe that there will be those who knew the truth, yet were never born again, that will realize what has happened and will be saved. Also, there will be the 144,000 from the 12 tribes who will be sealed during the tribulation.
     
  19. NumberOneSon

    NumberOneSon The poster formerly known as Acts6:5

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    I like your red signature, Mandy! I might have to borrow it. ;)
     
  20. ccgr

    ccgr Junior Member

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    I believe it will happen pre trib, God has spared the righteous in the past many times. (Flood, Egypt plagues, soddom and Gohmorrah etc)
     
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