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Pre-existance of the Son

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by jlmizejr76, Jan 21, 2003.

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  1. jlmizejr76

    jlmizejr76 Yahshua is Messiah

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    <B><I>&nbsp;

    Hello Everyone,

    During the course of this study I will go through scripture that proves that the son of YHWH existed before the foundations of the world. And prove that Yahshua, the son of YHWH is the light of the world. I am presenting this study to you with and open mind, and so if there are any comments or different views to this subject, please share them. I really want to learn YHWH’S truth, and what his purpose is, and that’s why we are all here.

    I used STRONGS #215, and #216, for the word light. I found it best fits with the topic.</I>
    215 - Hebrew</B>215 'owr ore

    a primitive root; to be (causative, make) luminous (literally and metaphorically):--X break of day, glorious, kindle, (be, en-, give, show) <B>light</B> (-en, -ened), set on fire, shine.<B>216 - Hebrew</B>216 'owr ore

    from 215; illumination or (concrete) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.):--bright, clear, + day, <B>light</B> (-ning), morning, sun.
    <B><I>

    First I’d like to begin in
    John 1:1. 1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. 2: The same was in the beginning with Elohim. 3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5: And light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6: There was a man sent from YHWH, whose name was John. 7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8: He was not that light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10: He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11: He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of YHWH, even to them that believe on his name: 13: Which were born, not of blood , nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of YHWH. 14: And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his majesty, the majesty as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

    This passage clearly describes Yahshua as being the Word as well as the light, and in verse 14 proves that Yahshua was with the Father before being here on earth. Throughout scripture Yahshua is described as being a light, and that is figuratively. Light meaning, LIFE, HAPPINESS, or GLORIOUS etc... And we know that YHWH is all of these things. And we also read in scripture that Yahshua is the image of the invisible YHWH.
    Colossians 1:11. 11: Strengthened with all might, according to his majestic power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness; 12: Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light. 13: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14: in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15: Who is the image of the invisible Elohim, the firstborn of all creation: 16: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. 17: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18: And he is the head of the body, the assembly: who is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead; that in all things he might have preeminence. So if I am clear then Yahshua is LIGHT, BEGINNING, YHWH’S WORD, THE HEAD OF THE ASSEMBLY, THE FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION. AND THROUGH YAHSHUA ALL THINGS WERE CREATED. And in the book of Revelation, scripture reveals that Yahshua is the beginning and the end. (</B></I>Rev 21:6 And<SUP>2532</SUP> he said<SUP>2036</SUP> unto me<SUP>3427</SUP>, It is done<SUP>1096</SUP>. I<SUP>1473</SUP> am<SUP>1510</SUP> Alpha<SUP>1</SUP> and<SUP>2532</SUP> Omega<SUP>5598</SUP>, the beginning<SUP>746</SUP> and<SUP>2532</SUP> the end<SUP>5056</SUP>. I<SUP>1473</SUP> will give<SUP>1325</SUP> unto him that is athirst<SUP>1372</SUP> of<SUP>1537</SUP> the fountain<SUP>4077</SUP> of the water<SUP>5204</SUP> of life<SUP>2222</SUP> freely<SUP>1432</SUP>.) <I>. <B>Possibly another point that Yahshua was there in the beginning, and we know he will be there in the end. There are so many scriptures that leads us to believe that Yahshua was there.</B></I>

    next post is part 2
     
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  2. jlmizejr76

    jlmizejr76 Yahshua is Messiah

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    <B><I>Hebrews 1:1 1: Elohim, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2: Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3: Who being the brightness of his splendour, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Psalm 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them; but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy coutenance, because thow hadst a favour unto them. Daniel 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him. John 8:12. Then spake Yahshua again unto them, saying, “I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.” 1 Thessalonians 5:4. 4: But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5: Ye are all the children of light, and children of day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. There seems to be a comparison in this scripture; light to day, and night to darkness,,, figuratively. So if we walk in the day, then we walk with light. And if we walk in the night, then we walk in darkness. Revelation 21:23. 23: And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the solenoid of Elohim did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 1John 1:4. 4: And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5: This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare I unto you, that Elohim is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth. 7: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Yashua the Messiah his Son cleanseth us from all sin. John 17:4 4: I have esteemed thee on earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5: And now, O Father, honor thou me with thine own self with the majesty which I had with thee before the world was.

    We read in Genesis how Elohim created, and we read in John 1:1-6 how Yahshua was the Fathers instrument of creation. It becomes so clear that there were two beings, and the TITLE Elohim is plural ,
    STRONGS #430 'elohiym el-o-heem'

    plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty. </I>
    <I>So there were two YHWH’S, the Father and the Son.
    <DIR>So with the information I’ve gathered so far in my study, I’ve found that Yahshua, the Son of YHWH, did exist before the world was made. Yahshua is our Light, our example, The beginning and the end. And Yahshua should be our way of life, so that the world may know that we are part of the FAMILY of YHWH. And if we do as YHWH commands we have that light. Now to further my study, knowing that Yahshua existed before the world was, and that the world was made by him, and that he came and dwelt with us on earth in the flesh, and will soon return as a light. Now we’ll turn to Genesis 1. And before I begin reading I would like to note that during the time of creation everything happened in order, day by day, from DAY 1 to DAY 7. Starting in
    Genesis 1.

    1:
    In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And Elohim saw the light, that it was good: and Elohim divided the light from the darkness. 5: And Elohim called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And evening and the morning were the first day. So all of this took place in DAY 1. 6: And Elohim said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7: And Elohim made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8: And Elohim called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. So all of this took place in DAY 2. 9: And Elohim said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let dry land appear: and it was so. 10: And Elohim called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and Elohim saw that it was good. 11: And Elohim said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed is in itself, after his kind: and Elohim say that it was good. 13: And evening and the morning were the third day. So all of this took place in DAY 3. 14: And Elohim said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16: And Elohim made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17: And Elohim set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness; and Elohim saw that it was good. 19: And evening and the morning were the fourth day. So all of this took place in DAY 4. 20: And Elohim said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21: And Elohim created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and evry winged fowl after his kind: and Elohim saw that it was good. 22: And Elohim blessed them saying, Be fruitful, and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. So all of this took place in DAY 5. </B></I><B><I></DIR></B></I>
     
  3. jlmizejr76

    jlmizejr76 Yahshua is Messiah

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    <DIR><B><I>24: And Elohim said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25: And Elohim made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and Elohim saw that it was good. 26: And Elohim said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27: So Elohim created man in his own image, in the image of Elohim created he him; male and female created he them. 28: And Elohim blessed them, and Elohim said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the seas, and the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29: And Elohim said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31: And Elohim saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And evening and the morning were the sixth day. So all of this took place in DAY 6.

    Chapter 2 1: Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2: And on the seventh day Elohim ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3: And Elohim blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which Elohim created and made. So on the seventh day

    YHWH made the Sabbath. </B></I><B><I>When reading through Genesis you can figure out why YHWH went in this particular order.

    DAY 1 (YHWH MADE LIGHT) WHICH LIGHT?

    DAY 2 (YHWH MADE THE FIRMAMENT)</B></I>
    <B><I>DAY 3 (YHWH MADE THE DRY LAND, SEAS,

    AND HERB YEILDING SEED)

    DAY 4 (YHWH MADE TWO GREAT LIGHTS,

    AND THE STARS) WHICH LIGHTS?

    DAY 5 (YHWH MADE THE LIVING CREATURES

    IN THE WATERS, AND WINGED FOWL)

    DAY 6 (YHWH MADE BEAST OF THE EARTH,

    AND HE MADE MAN)

    DAY 7 (YHWH RESTED FROM HIS WORK AND

    CREATED THE SABBATH)
    YHWH’S plan is laid out so perfectly. YHWH created the Sabbath for man, and every thing he made during creation was for us. Yahshua the Messiah, is for us, our example, and way of life. YHWH’S Light in scripture is some cases may not have been Yahshua, but I believe that YHWH’S plan did involve Yahshua. And understanding that Yahshua was YHWH’S instrument during creation, and that he is a Light, the Fathers right arm, the beginning and the end, helps us to understand more and more what YHWH’S purpose is. Now keeping in mind the order everything was created will help to answer two questions. In the first day which light did YHWH create? And in the fourth day which lights did YHWH create? YHWH made the firmament on the second day. With all this in mind, now I’ll make my point. If the sun, moon, or stars were made on the first day, then where did YHWH set these lights?, if he had not created the firmament until the second day. Or did YHWH create these lights on the first day and set them in the firmament on the fourth day? I really don’t see the reasoning behind this. It only speaks of one light in Genesis 1:3, and in Genesis 1:14 there is more than one light. I really believe that Yahshua was that light on the first day, and that YHWH didn’t set the sun, moon, or stars until the fourth day, after he had made a place to set them. I believe that the light in Genesis 1:3 is YHWH’S plan, his happiness, or his glory. And isn’t Yahshua all of these? I know he is. Whether or not you believe that Yahshua was or was not this light, we can all agree on one thing, and that we know that Yahshua is a light, he is our light, and our example, so that we may live according to YHWH’S will, and we too will be light for the world to see, and that he was with the Father and came and dwelt among us in the flesh,, as the LIGHT OF THE WORLD. And that he will return again here on earth and shine his magnificent light that was given to him by the Father. And the world will know that it is YHWH. And with that I will conclude my study. PRAISE YAHWEH!!!!!!!!!!!



    </DIR></B></I>
     
  4. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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  5. jlmizejr76

    jlmizejr76 Yahshua is Messiah

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    Pastor N.B.,

    I really doubt you had time to read it all, why dont you read it and then tell me what you think.

    with love,
    Johnnie
     
  6. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    Howdy partners,&nbsp; A little Texas lingo there....... :D

    When birth takes place, a new life comes into being.The birth of Jesus Christ was no exception.&nbsp; There is a sense in which you could say that Jesus was there from the beginning, because God had planned right from the beginning to have a Son. Now, if God plans anything, we know with absolute certainty that it will come to pass. Jesus Christ is at the center of God's purpose,so when God told faithful people in the Old Testament about His purpose, He told them about Christ.&nbsp;

    In the same way the Bible speaks of "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Revelation 13:8). This does not mean that Jesus was slain before the creation of the world - that terrible event happened once, nearly 2000 years ago (see Hebrews 9:25-28), when Jesus was crucified. Because the death of Jesus is so central to the purpose of God, the Almighty speaks of it as an event so important that it affects all people in all times- Old Testament as well as since. So it has influenced everything 'from the foundation of the world'.&nbsp; The Bible often uses language like this to describe the Lord Jesus, but it does not mean that he was personally alive before his birth.&nbsp;

    Christ was in the mind of God as someone He would bring into being at His appointed time. But it was not until Mary's baby was born that the Lord Jesus became a living person.

    With that said, does that mean that Christ pre-existed?&nbsp;
    If that is the case, then all humans pre-existed because God is all knowing.&nbsp; Is it possible that God knew about us before we were conceived and born into the world?&nbsp; You can fill in the blanks.......&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;

    &nbsp;

    &nbsp;
     
  7. jlmizejr76

    jlmizejr76 Yahshua is Messiah

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    Franklin,
    We can read in scripture that all things were created through his son,
    what do you do with these scriptures?
     
  8. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    Hi Johnnie,
    The start of the thread asked about the pre/existence of Christ the Son I think?

    Your 'long' post was covering creation week '+'. I have no problem with that subject thread being included! Yet, you ask MANY QUESTIONS. And then you would like to know what one thinks?? Perhaps you need to narrow it down to what the WORD of God says & GIVE YOUR THINKING as to why you understand this as such?? (SMILE, more questions!)

    Just a LONG thought below. (smile)
    The Word tells us that there ARE OTHERS WORLD'S'! And these are FACTS!
    And, that sin did not start with THEM, but started with Luciffer IN HEAVEN.
    And that he was cast unto OUR EARTH & that then, man was created. Now, the ones who MADE MAN IN [OUR IMAGE] were here! I for 'one' believe that[GOD] does not leave a real seeker in the dark! Two at least so far!(Creation!! Light, huh!?)

    Let me ask you, do you REALLY BELIEVE that GOD KNOWS WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT?? I mean REALLY??? Do you BELIEVE HIS WORD? REALLY??
    I am not asking about being saved, or being on the 'milk' of Heb. 5. You sound like you are doing pretty well? So, let me ask you to SEE WHAT GOD INSPIRED about [ALL OF THIS], and then you can 'test' yourself with questions! (smile!)

    Eccl. 1:9-10 & Eccl. 3:15 in part tells us a GOD CANNOT LIE, TRUTH.
    "The thing that [hath been it is that which shall be, and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there IS *NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN]."

    OUR Solar system? Plan of Salvation? Christ? EVERLASTING GOSPEL of Rev. 14:6 or Everlasting COVENANT of Heb. 13:20? Royal Law of the UNIVERSE? THAT [IS] WHAT GOD SAYS!!!

    Then HE continues on... "IS THERE ANYTHING WHEREOF IT MAY BE SAID, SEE THIS IS NEW? [IT HATH BEEN *ALREADY OF OLD TIME, WHICH WAS BEFORE US]."

    We UNDERSTAND (?) that 2 Tim. 3:16 tells us ALL Scripture are for us to Mature in doctrine & grow up into MATURE perfection. And Matt. 4:4 Christ tells us the COMPLETE 66 books of His WORD is our Manna (bread) of eternal life & knowledge. So one needs to realize when BELIEVING the Eccl.'s WORDS, that they true while using the {FEW} times that God has elsewhere STATED PLAINLY that this is not to be the case! The RAINBOW in the SKY FOR ONE. And another that quickly comes to mind is Nahum 1:9, about sin 'WILL NOT ARISE A [SECOND TIME]'. (or it would have! think of saving all 'professed Christians of history?)

    This verse of Eccl. IS FORCEFUL! But see the other verse here at the top of the pg.? And your questions (and my past growing ones perhaps) would need to PASS THIS TEST for me to study further.

    Here is the verse of Eccl. 3:14-15 in part:
    "I KNOW that, whatsoever God doeth, (OR SAYS!) IT SHALL BE FOR EVER: [NOTHING CAN BE PUT TO IT, NOR *ANYTHING TAKEN FROM IT: ...

    (and in Rev.'s CLOSING WORDS it say's what? If we that have our name recorded in the Lamb's BOOK of LIFE, add unto or take away from the Master's WORD'S, our name WILL BE REMOVED from HIS BOOK OF LIFE! See verses 18-19)

    ... THAT WHICH HATH BEEN [IS NOW]; and that which [IS TO BE HATH ALREADY BEEN; AND GOD REQUIRETH THAT WHICH IS PAST.]"

    A tree THAT TESTED THE Rom. 8:1 CHRISTIANS in the Garden for CHARACTER PERFECTION? *AND US?? Yes! 666. And 1 Peter 4:17!
    Two rebellion's of Christ's OWN 'TRUE VIRGIN FOLD"? At His first coming & at His [SECOND] time one? Yes! Oh', we could go on & on? But just one more. God has TOLD US THE PAST, PRESENT & FUTURE, do we BELIEVE IT??? (and NO, I am not a furturest!)

    OK: in closing. The one more. The two of Deity that stated, let US make man in OUR image, did so. They also let them create. (pro/create) And Adam & Eve's [first] son REBELLED (or was it the creators created first son? Luciffer) Notice that [both] of these of God's creation & Man's creation went along the REBELLIOUS route! God permitted for these to live on for a reason! BOTH. Now, if one BELIEVES the Word of GOd, who was the Master's FIRST CREATED ONE? Yes, Eze. 28.

    Perhaps this is by far way toooo much already! But this is what God said! So 666 is an simple testing. And to see what it will be? just find it in the first history BEFORE the CHILDREN OF ISRAEL were to enter THEIR LAND OF CAANAN, & it will also be our TESTING BEFORE THE PROFESSED CHRISTIAN WORLD CAN ENTER THEIR LAND OF CAANAN! *IT WILL BE THE SAME!!----
    (With ANOTHER EXCEPTION, that of the 1 Peter 4:17 ones, this has ALSO been stated not to be their test!)----- P/B/B/

    ****
     
  9. franklin

    franklin Sexed up atheism = Pantheism

    +218
    Atheist
    Private
    So according to the traditional thinking and theological bias that is used to get a forced interpretation out of scripture by saying because certain scriptures say all things were created through Jesus or by Jesus that surely proves that He is the Almighty creator God.&nbsp; To do this is to place a forced interpretation on the word of God that says no such thing!&nbsp; The translation "through him" should be "through it" (His word).&nbsp; Everything was created by God’s word (His plan, will), not by Jesus. In other words, God has a plan (logos) to create the universe. Wisdom is the ability to create thoughts. God’s wisdom creates his thoughts. When He speaks (word), he is expressing His thoughts. His thoughts are His will, and whatever God wills happens. This is how everything was created by the word (His will).
     
  10. Pastor N.B.

    Pastor N.B. Member

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    Again:
    It was the PLAN of the Atonement that existed in ETERNITY! The PLAN had in it the ETERNAL God [becomming] the Christ. Rom. 4:17's last part.

    The ONE Holy Spirit GOD moved upon the waters in creation! Two of the [THREE] in the GodHead state plainly.. Let US make man in our IMAGE! (at least twice stated) So 'ONE" of the GodHead IS A SPIRIT being. He is the Holy SPIRIT, the Holy GHOST. Two ARE with the.. 'let us make man in OUR image' and the other that we started with? Christ says that He does not speak of HIMSELF, but upholds the 'SON THAT WAS TO BE'!
    I suspect that if you looked close, you could find a passage that said that there are THREE that bear wittness in heaven, somewhere? Yet, would that do the trick? I doubt it.---P/N/B/

    PS: Think of Imortality-[NO BEGINNING!] Everlasting GOSPEL & (AND) EVERLASTING COVENANT!
    ******


     
  11. jlmizejr76

    jlmizejr76 Yahshua is Messiah

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    I never once stated that the son is YHWH the Father, You are misunderstanding what is being said. All I am saying is that Yahshua the Son has been with the Father Yahweh since the beginning. No where at all did I say Yahshua is the Father, although he does have the characteristics of the Father. When he was asked to show the Father, his reply was You see me then you see the Father. Who appeared to Enoch? Was it the Father Yahweh or the Son coming in his name. Remember no one has ever seen the Father,,, only the Son. The Father and the Son share the name,,, Did Yahshua not say I come in my Fathers name? Which was not a all Jesus. Yah-Yahweh, shua-salvation. Yahshua. Go and study the hebrew meanings of the title God in the KJV, Youll find it to be plural. He said let us make man in our image, I seriosly doubt he was talking about satan. Yahweh created all things through his son Yahshua. Since the beginning the Son has been Yahweh's instrument, John 1:1-16, Col chap 1. He was and is the Fathers right arm.
    respectfully
    Johnnie
     
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