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Pre-destination?

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Nick_Loves_Abba, Mar 17, 2002.

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  1. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    This is a topic I've been struggling alot with as-of-late. I have to main questions. Think you could help me out? Many people think that GOD chooses those which go to hell and those which go to heaven. Other's believe that GOD just knows which will already choose to deny Jesus and those which will choose to accept Jesus.

    Which is right?
     
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  2. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    There are verses that seem to support both. Yet I see clearly that man must decide whom he will serve. I believe that we are predestined base on the foreknowledge of God. He knows who will turn to Him and receive Jesus and be born again. The Bible says, "To as many as received Him, to them gave He the power to become the sons of God." So we must receive Him. Elijah said, "Choose this day whom you will serve." So we must choose, but yet our desire to choose Jesus is the working of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. This is what I believe based on my studies.


    Oh and welcome to the forums! :wave:
     
  3. oncewaslost

    oncewaslost owl

    +129
    Calvinist
    Single
    i don't know, but i can give verses :)

    Romans 8:29-30

    .... i know there's a few more (i think)

    ahhhhhhhhh! i'm late! :eek: chruch, bye!
     
  4. filosofer

    filosofer Senior Veteran

    +287
    Lutheran
    Calvinism and Arminianism are not Biblical terms, but they have been used historically as short-hand terms to identify theological positions. Likewise in past centuries the terms Augustinianism, Nestorianism, etc. have identified positions within debates about what the Bible teaches.

    Often the issue dealing with Calvinism and Arminianism has been raised regarding predestination. Actually this issue focuses the attention on the crucial problems for both. Let's put the issue into a question form: “Why are some saved and others not?” Most often the answers have been limited in the discussion to Calvinism or Arminianism - either you have to choose Calvin's view or Arminius' view. But there is a third option.

    1. Calvinists answer this question by saying that God chooses some to go to heaven and some to go to hell (thus, double predestination). The extreme of this position claims that Jesus did not die for those who go to hell, only for those who go to heaven (limited atonement). This latter statement contradicts passages such as 1 John 2:2 "And He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world." Calvinists desire to maintain the absolute certainty of salvation, and therefore posit everything to God. This seems God-honoring. However, a close look at Scripture reveals the fallacy of this position - namely, 1 Timothy 2:3-4 "God desires all people to come to a knowledge of the truth and be saved." Calvin's solution to this text was to alter the translation to be : "God desires all 'kinds of' people ..." The tragedy of Calvinism is that the person "never knows for certain whether he/she is saved." Thus, the Calvinist receives assurance of salvation from doing good works, "which proves that I must be one of God’s chosen ones." But the person can never be sure of that, especially if the atonement is limited to only those who are being saved.

    2. Arminianism would answer the question by saying that the person chooses heaven or the person chooses hell. This sounds logical. We choose our meals, we choose our vehicles, we choose our clothes, etc. So we must be able to choose our salvation. The problem for the Arminians is that it denies original sin and the bondage of the person (before conversation) to sin. As Paul writes in Ephesians 2:1, "we are dead in our trespasses and sins...." If someone is dead, that person can do nothing, not even "choose." Paul adds in 2:4-5 "But God made us alive..." According to Arminianism, the certainty of salvation rests upon the person - thus, "altar calls" are frequent to "make sure you’re in the faith."

    3. The Biblical response often seems less than satisfying. The key is to realize that there are, in reality, two questions, and therefore two answers. The first question is: How is someone saved? The response is that God is the sufficient and only cause for salvation. Thus, if someone is in heaven, it is because of God’s work (Ephesians 2:4-5; 2:8-9; etc.). The second question is: How does someone end up in hell? The Biblical answer is that the person continues in sin (John 3:18, "judged/condemned already") and is therefore responsible for being in hell.

    Thus, Biblically predestination is one sided; God's effective work to bring someone to heaven (Ephesians 2:4-5, etc.). The key is to realize that predestination is a doctrine of comfort, because the focus is on God's saving work, which does not change. Everything God intends for our salvation is tied to Christ's work on the cross. Nothing we do, say, or think can ever change that. Election/predestination, then, is always Biblicaly tied to the phrase "in Christ" (see Ephesians 1:3-14 for example). That gives confidence because the certainty is based on God's promise, not on my behavior nor the strength of my faith nor of my decision.
     
  5. kelco

    kelco Rev. Kelco

    +635
    Methodist
    Private
    Nick,

    I'm a firm beliver in free will. I think that God's offer of salvation is for anyone who will accept it. Check out John 3:16, 1Tim 2:1-5, Rom 1:16-17. God loves us and wants us to freely accept the salvation he freely gives.
     
  6. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    I agree a %100 on you with that. Either way, God won't turn down someone calling on Jesus. :) :D

    He is an Awesome GOD.
     
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