Pre-creation, existence of God's souls and bodies?

[GoldenKingGaze]

Thinking of God, before any creature existed, not even a germ, God had a relational nature. This manifested when there became dimensions and matter, in Him having a face, we are made to be like this as well. To relate to Him face to face one day. Behind the face and one can say, in the chest and belly of God is empathy, compassion and speech. All on His own? It does not prove logical or wise to suppose, He'd exist on His own with these relational qualities. Maybe God did not have a body or even a shape, but empathy, compassion and speech... Surely God was not alone. The Spirit in God knows what is in His mind as our spirits know what is in our minds. It is logical to think God is more than one person. So they are face to face, and we in their image and likeness have faces and relational qualities.

My question from this premise is, before creation, did God have a soul and or a body of matter or, are these created things? The soul, in three parts, the mind, the will and the emotions. The Spirit, soul and body, the latter two, are they created?

We are made in His image and likeness, relational beings to visit God in person, at a later time, seeing Him face to face.

This perspective can take into account other religions and gods such as the first god of Hinduism, Purusha, and Allah, and the Greek gods. And the Buddhist idea, that god can't be known. Also the rarer than Trinitarian belief of Modalism.

Does God have a face? Do the Son and the Spirit have souls and bodies each, or part of that?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

No! Not really till the incarnation, although there are some Theophany type events in the Old Testament where the Son / Logos / Angel of the Lord appears and seems to assume some kind of physical form as far as having a body but that is about it.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

No! Not really till the incarnation, although there are some Theophany type events in the Old Testament where the Son / Logos / Angel of the Lord appears and seems to assume some kind of physical form as far as having a body but that is about it.

Yes, I know Jesus has a body. Angels may have bodies or disguises... Jesus' body and soul and spirit is created, in this the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily. Is God the Father's mind a creation, might He have a physical body and the Holy Spirit?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Is God the Father's mind a creation, might He have a physical body and the Holy Spirit?

All of Yahwehs / The Trinities attributes are pre-existent, which means they are eternal, never created etc. the Son being incarnated is the only thing that sort of deviates from that basic rule of thumb.

But generally words like "creation" are avoided when they come with God because they assume/imply things like not being eternal or pre-existent. They basically insinuate that God is subject to things like Time, when he is not, he stands outside of time, being the Creator and not the created and is not subject to it, which is another reason for things like his omniscience etc.


PS - you post does remind me of an old Benny Hinn comment that God him in trouble in the early 90s.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

All of Yahwehs / The Trinities attributes are pre-existent, which means they are eternal, never created etc. the Son being incarnated is the only thing that sort of deviates from that basic rule of thumb.

But generally words like "creation" are avoided when they come with God because they assume/imply things like not being eternal or pre-existent. They basically insinuate that God is subject to things like Time, when he is not, he stands outside of time, being the Creator and not the created and is not subject to it, which is another reason for things like his omniscience etc.


PS - you post does remind me of an old Benny Hinn comment that God him in trouble in the early 90s.

But can you comment on God having an atomic body? And the soul, is that self-existent/ uncreated?

Time is a dimension God created, which He comes to transcend. Empathy is an organ in the heart and or soul?

Benny Hinn, dared to speculate.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I believe God is love and that is self-existent.

 

[sandman]

Thinking of God, before any creature existed, not even a germ, God had a relational nature. This manifested when there became dimensions and matter, in Him having a face, we are made to be like this as well. To relate to Him face to face one day. Behind the face and one can say, in the chest and belly of God is empathy, compassion and speech. All on His own? It does not prove logical or wise to suppose, He'd exist on His own with these relational qualities. Maybe God did not have a body or even a shape, but empathy, compassion and speech... Surely God was not alone. The Spirit in God knows what is in His mind as our spirits know what is in our minds. It is logical to think God is more than one person. So they are face to face, and we in their image and likeness have faces and relational qualities.

My question from this premise is, before creation, did God have a soul and or a body of matter or, are these created things? The soul, in three parts, the mind, the will and the emotions. The Spirit, soul and body, the latter two, are they created?

We are made in His image and likeness, relational beings to visit God in person, at a later time, seeing Him face to face.

This perspective can take into account other religions and gods such as the first god of Hinduism, Purusha, and Allah, and the Greek gods. And the Buddhist idea, that god can't be known. Also the rarer than Trinitarian belief of Modalism.

Does God have a face? Do the Son and the Spirit have souls and bodies each, or part of that?

The Bible states that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven…

I Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

And since the soul life of a person is in the blood As Leviticus states, I don’t know if you can draw a comparison of soul life with God. John 6:63 states God [is] a spirit. Spirit has no form or shape. They can come into different forms (concretion), such as Jesus had with his resurrected form, but aside from that… it's really beyond our comprehension…… As is anything our human minds try to attribute to God other than what the Word tell us.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life (nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls (nephesh) for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul (nephesh)

And since soul life was created in Genesis 1:21 …that means it did not exist before that.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (chay nephesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Chay = living
Nephesh = soul life

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The Bible states that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven…

I Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

And since the soul life of a person is in the blood As Leviticus states, I don’t know if you can draw a comparison of soul life with God. John 6:63 states God [is] a spirit. Spirit has no form or shape. They can come into different forms (concretion), such as Jesus had with his resurrected form, but aside from that… it's really beyond our comprehension…… As is anything our human minds try to attribute to God other than what the Word tell us.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life (nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls (nephesh) for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul (nephesh)

And since soul life was created in Genesis 1:21 …that means it did not exist before that.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature (chay nephesh) that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Chay = living
Nephesh = soul life

That's good Sandman. There is a threeness from God. Body, soul, spirit, the human person. Mind, will, emotion, the soul. Is God the Father a soul? Does He have one? Did He always? Is it created or self-existent?

We are created in God's image and likeness but as individuals. Is the soul and spirit/soul/body a creation reflection of God's Trinity or is God like this in actuality.

 

[sandman]

That's good Sandman. There is a threeness from God. Body, soul, spirit, the human person. Mind, will, emotion, the soul. Is God the Father a soul? Does He have one? Did He always? Is it created or self-existent?

We are created in God's image and likeness but as individuals. Is the soul and spirit/soul/body a creation reflection of God's Trinity or is God like this in actuality.

I will tell you what I know that might be helpful in your conclusions...

God is spirit, God is light , God is love.

If soul is……… as defined in his Word…then I would say God does not have soul. And since it (soul) did not exist until He (God) created it in animals, then certainly God does not the soul life that we have….as it did not exist.


God created soul life in animals first….

To create is to make something out of nothing ….only God can create.

Once something is created God does not need to create it again …He just speaks it into existence as He did with everything from Genesis 1:3 to 1:21. (because He had already created the heavens & earth in Gen 1:1, and the earth became without form and void in Gen 1:2. He did not need to create light, grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit ….He just spoke back it into existence.)

After Genesis 1:1 the next thing God creates is soul life, which God created in animals first. ….God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth (Gen 1:21) The big difference between animals and homo sapiens is, animals have “instinct”, whereas humans have “reason” which includes free will, something animals do not have. But the life force behind both man & animals (of body and soul) is blood.

The one thing we need to ask is what does image and likeness mean?

The words image and likeness (Gen 1:26) are the figure of speech Hendiadys, which is a figure in which two words connected by a conjunction (usually ‘and’) are used to express a single notion….two words one meaning.
(Of the 219 known figures of speech there are 212 used in the Bible in various forms.)

God [is] a spirit….. Spirit, has no form no bones no flesh……Although the Word does not specifically spell this out, I will give you what I deduce from what God created in man in (Gen 1:27)…. It is speculation, which I typically never do….so, take it from that perspective.

I believe the image and likeness of God, who is spirit, created spirit in, with, or upon Adam….so he could communicate with Adam…....body and soul person cannot communicate with God.

God also told Adam …Gen 2:17 …for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

We know that Adam partook of the fruit, but we also know in “the day” he did not physically die …He went on to live some 900+ years….so what died?

I believe spirit, the connection with God died on that day. From the time of Adam until Pentecost in order for God to communicate with man He had to place his spirit upon man, or come in some form of concretion……But now, because of what Jesus Christ accomplished and God enacted with the new birth, we (those of us born again) have spirit within ….incorruptible seed which liveth and abideth for ever.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

When I was a teen, I began to believe in God, not knowing what my Catholic faith taught. And I was asked, what is the Holy Spirit? I was given a wrong answer by another Catholic saying He is a force or power. But this is actually what JWs teach. From Apostolic Tradition and scripture He is a person, and scripture tells of His mind, will and emotions, which three things, define the soul.

Does the Holy Spirit have a soul, or is He a soul? Is His soul self existent with His eternal heart?

 

[Davy]

My question from this premise is, before creation, did God have a soul and or a body of matter or, are these created things? The soul, in three parts, the mind, the will and the emotions. The Spirit, soul and body, the latter two, are they created?

We are made in His image and likeness, relational beings to visit God in person, at a later time, seeing Him face to face.

This perspective can take into account other religions and gods such as the first god of Hinduism, Purusha, and Allah, and the Greek gods. And the Buddhist idea, that god can't be known. Also the rarer than Trinitarian belief of Modalism.

Does God have a face? Do the Son and the Spirit have souls and bodies each, or part of that?

Genesis 1:26-27 reveals that the image of man originates from the Heavenly, from God's Own Image Likeness. And GOD never had a flesh material body, nor ever will. Nowhere is that idea written.

Some false teachers wrongly teach that the image likeness of man is only associated with the flesh. That is false per God's Word. There are spirit bodies also in that other dimension which have the image of men, they're called angels in God's Word.

There are 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly dimension we live in, and the heavenly dimension where God and the angels live behind an invisible veil we cannot see.

John 4 says God is "a Spirit". So He is not flesh. And the way He created this material universe we live in was by His Spirit. Hebrews 11:3 reveals this...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

That part in bold is supported by true science. Science says that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed (by man). It simply changes its form (solid, liquid, gas, vapor). That means Something outside of the realm of material matter had to have created this material universe. That is GOD Who created it, as He is a Spirit, separate and distinct from material matter. That verse actually proves beyond all doubt God's existence.

 

[TedT]

It is logical to think God is more than one person. So they are face to face, and we in their image and likeness have faces and relational qualities.

Such thoughts are the basis of my understanding of GOD as the unity (echad in Hebrew) of a trinity of Divine Persons.

 

[SkyWriting]

When I was a teen, I began to believe in God, not knowing what my Catholic faith taught. And I was asked, what is the Holy Spirit? I was given a wrong answer by another Catholic saying He is a force or power. But this is actually what JWs teach. From Apostolic Tradition and scripture He is a person, and scripture tells of His mind, will and emotions, which three things, define the soul.

Does the Holy Spirit have a soul, or is He a soul? Is His soul self existent with His eternal heart?

The Holy Spirit does not have an independent soul.

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

John 15:26
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.

Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.

 

[TedT]

The Holy Spirit does not have an independent soul.

You are correct; He IS an independent Divine soul, person.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Genesis 1:26-27 reveals that the image of man originates from the Heavenly, from God's Own Image Likeness. And GOD never had a flesh material body, nor ever will. Nowhere is that idea written.

Was Jesus the Christ not God, in the 'Son of God'?

Some false teachers wrongly teach that the image likeness of man is only associated with the flesh. That is false per God's Word. There are spirit bodies also in that other dimension which have the image of men, they're called angels in God's Word.

I agree that the 'image of God' in which we are created is not primarily a reference to the fleshly form or function, though that could be a part of it. There is a difference to us that the angels will never attain, and for which the angels love us, and the demons hate us.

There are 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly dimension we live in, and the heavenly dimension where God and the angels live behind an invisible veil we cannot see.

John 4 says God is "a Spirit". So He is not flesh. And the way He created this material universe we live in was by His Spirit. Hebrews 11:3 reveals this...

And there are two realities: one, which we (and the spirits) inhabit, but another that engulfs this one, from which God alone operates. No, he is not subject to that reality, but IS that reality. We alone, of all creatures, will inhabit that reality. Death is swallowed up in life. (2 Corinthians 5:4)

That part in bold is supported by true science. Science says that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed (by man). It simply changes its form (solid, liquid, gas, vapor). That means Something outside of the realm of material matter had to have created this material universe. That is GOD Who created it, as He is a Spirit, separate and distinct from material matter. That verse actually proves beyond all doubt God's existence.

To be fair, the verse only currently proves it to those who believe what the verse shows. But yes, in the end, it is proven to everyone. And yes, science supports what that verse says.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Genesis 1:26-27 reveals that the image of man originates from the Heavenly, from God's Own Image Likeness. And GOD never had a flesh material body, nor ever will. Nowhere is that idea written.

Some false teachers wrongly teach that the image likeness of man is only associated with the flesh. That is false per God's Word. There are spirit bodies also in that other dimension which have the image of men, they're called angels in God's Word.

There are 2 different dimensions of existence written of in God's Word, this earthly dimension we live in, and the heavenly dimension where God and the angels live behind an invisible veil we cannot see.

John 4 says God is "a Spirit". So He is not flesh. And the way He created this material universe we live in was by His Spirit. Hebrews 11:3 reveals this...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

That part in bold is supported by true science. Science says that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed (by man). It simply changes its form (solid, liquid, gas, vapor). That means Something outside of the realm of material matter had to have created this material universe. That is GOD Who created it, as He is a Spirit, separate and distinct from material matter. That verse actually proves beyond all doubt God's existence.

Where does it say God is a Spirit?

 

[Davy]

Was Jesus the Christ not God, in the 'Son of God'?

Of course I was referring to God BEFORE Jesus was born in the flesh. So you think The Son of God at Genesis 1:26-27 had a flesh body? That idea is kind of sick.

I agree that the 'image of God' in which we are created is not primarily a reference to the fleshly form or function, though that could be a part of it. There is a difference to us that the angels will never attain, and for which the angels love us, and the demons hate us.

Not, or could be, which is it? You sound uncertain. Yeah, the angels aren't born in the flesh, which appears to be why the angels of Genesis 6 coveted flesh woman suggesting they were jealous of those born in the flesh, so they came to earth and took wives of flesh woman.

The way I interpret angels is that just like people on earth, there are good angels, and then there are bad angels.

And there are two realities: one, which we (and the spirits) inhabit, but another that engulfs this one, from which God alone operates. No, he is not subject to that reality, but IS that reality. We alone, of all creatures, will inhabit that reality. Death is swallowed up in life. (2 Corinthians 5:4)

God's Word only points to 2 different dimensions of existence, this earthly dimension, and the heavenly dimension where His Abode and the angels live, behind a veil. Hebrews 11 reveals that God as a Spirit is how this material universe was created, showing that material matter did not create material matter. In John 3, Lord Jesus said that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of The Spirit is spirit. So there's only two dimensions defined in God's Word. And I like to keep it simple like His Word does.

In Isaiah 45:18, God said He did not create this earth "in vain". He said He created it to be inhabited, lived upon. Isaiah 65 shows that's how His future Kingdom will be, upon this earth. So all of men's doctrines about living up in the clouds is just fancy dreaming by those who don't really study their Bible that well.

 

[Davy]

Where does it say God is a Spirit?

Lord Jesus said...

John 4:24
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
KJV

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

There was Melchizedek who received Abraham's tithes.

There is the glory of God in the face of Christ, and yet no man can see God's face, God the Father, in the flesh and live. And Paul seeing this a little went blind. Yet Jesus has flesh, but glorified flesh.

 

[Davy]

There was Melchizedek who received Abraham's tithes.

There is the glory of God in the face of Christ, and yet no man can see God's face, God the Father, in the flesh and live. And Paul seeing this a little went blind. Yet Jesus has flesh, but glorified flesh.

Hebrews 7 reveals that Melchizedek was Lord Jesus in Old Testament times. No wonder He offered Abraham "bread and wine" (Genesis 14:18).