Praying TO Saints

Philothei

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My prayer life and Christian walk is more fulfilling now that I am not a Roman Catholic. I'd rather have Jesus intercede for me, thank you.

We never claimed that praying to the saints either excluded praying to Jesus or it is mandatory... :thumbsup:either...


"Legendary" Saints: During the 20th century some former Catholic saints, such as St. Christopher, St. Valentine, St. Philomena, St. Nicholas et al., were down-graded by the Church to the status of mere "legends" because there was no documentation that they had ever lived. This did not stop their veneration in the nations which had been the centers of their cults, and for that reason they are still believed to be patron saints by many Catholics.

Maybe it is true maybe not.. To be honest the synaxaria(collections) of saint's lives are lost into the centuries ... We beleive them as the little archeological (or sometimes a lot) sources point to them... We know about St. Paraskevi through "stories" and each generation of course by the time things get added on. All agiologists (who write the life of a saint) are aware that there is the human element in telling the story. We believe in that what it was written for at the end of he line there were actually some who did know about the saint and since we have "modern" era saints who were miraculous in their lives on earth we know for sure that the same (through tradition) criteria used to announce a saint. For example Ptrotomartyr Stephen. His story is in the Bible. We have tons of accounts though like Stephen's written somewhere else. The accounts are so very similar though even if they are not accounted in the Bible...The fathers could not canonize all these writtings...but that does not mean that the accounts of martyrs were not valid.


That's why you should only pray to God, through His Son.
But we ask each other to pray to God for us this is not intercession?


For those that have ears to hear, let them hear.



We are all human and need a Saviour. Pray and worship Him, not others with their human frailty. Can you ever be certain anyone else has enough good works to merit heaven?
[/QUOTE]

so when you have your pastor (since you are protestant) praying for you he is not intercessing to God? Christ did not ask for his Apostles to pray for him in the Gesthemane? Why did he said to them to pray to his Father for Him? Why did Christ said 'whenever one or two are gathered there I am in their midst"?

We are told to pray for each other and in groups to God are we not. The saints are called upon when we pray so we do pray in unison (unity?) with them. :) Why would that be different?

We beleive they are alive and living with God in Heaven in the bossom of His Father...
 
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Philothei

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We do not know the heart. Only God knows.

I'm not sure. :scratch: Well, Matthew 25:31-46 reveals the judgment will be based on moral character.

I am sorry for bringing this up. Permit me to leave this thread. It would appear my initial assumptions were wrong.

A saint is recognized by his good deeds which demonstrates his moral character and showing the signs of Christ bodily, yes?

Is this correct?


As far as judgment only God would know. We know the character due the fruits we see in others. Do not be sorry they are all legit questions...:hug:I am asking to try to make you come up with answers yourself :hug:

Do not leave the thread :) ... We make wrong assumptions ...hey we are all humans. Yep a saint is someone who exhibits a moral character that is "christ like" and bears "much fruit" :)
 
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Livindesert

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Just to clarify:

saint (small "s") is used on CF to refer to Christians still on the journey - this would be me and you and others

Saint (upper case "s") is used to refer to those who have finished their course, and are with Christ, such as St. Nicholas of Myra and St. Christopher (who was mentioned in this thread).

So my question is about asking fellow Christians for help - maybe to lend a hand, do a favor, etc. Should we not ask other Christians for help ? So, in this way, instead of asking a fellow Christian for help should I ask God instead ? For example, on this forum, questions are asked of other Christians who post here -- is this showing a lack of faith ?

So to summarize, is it not better to pray to God to send someone to (using the previous example) give my daughter a ride than to ask someone (a fellow Christian) to give my daughter a ride ?


I am praying a prayer to all of the E.O. When a live E.O. posts my prayer word for word on this fourm then and only then I will believe prayer as a communication device between humans. Instead of being used to worship/venerate Saints.
 
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boswd

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Perhaps, per the OP (can we ask Saints for help) we should also be asking

can we ask saints for help ?

Why should we ask a fellow Christian to assist us, when we can just ask God for the asistance ? Wouldn't asking a fellow Christian for help also indicate a diminished trust in God ?


Good point
 
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Philothei

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I am praying a prayer to all of the E.O. When a live E.O. posts my prayer word for word on this fourm then and only then I will believe prayer as a communication device between humans. Instead of being used to worship/venerate Saints.
:confused:

what do you mean by that?
Why would an EO know your prayer in advance? what is this an exercise in magic;)

No one is worshiping saints we venerate them... and this is not a thread about veneraton/worship but saints...:angel:
 
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Livindesert

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:confused:

what do you mean by that?
Why would an EO know your prayer in advance? what is this an exercise in magic;)

No one is worshiping saints we venerate them... and this is not a thread about veneraton/worship but saints...:angel:

It is a exercise to see if prayer can be used to communicate to other Christians i.e. Saints.... If an E.O. can post my prayer then I will know that Saints can hear it.
 
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Christos Anesti

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St. Nicholas et al., were down-graded by the Church

I'm not sure why the RC Church would do that (if in fact they have) ? St Nicholas was Bishop of Myra in Lycia which is now part of present day Turky. He went to the Council of Nicaea.
 
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Jpark

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As far as judgment only God would know. We know the character due the fruits we see in others. Do not be sorry they are all legit questions...:hug:I am asking to try to make you come up with answers yourself :hug:

Do not leave the thread :) ... We make wrong assumptions ...hey we are all humans. Yep a saint is someone who exhibits a moral character that is "christ like" and bears "much fruit" :)
Yes, that is what I was thinking. :)
 
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Jpark

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Just to clarify:

saint (small "s") is used on CF to refer to Christians still on the journey - this would be me and you and others

Saint (upper case "s") is used to refer to those who have finished their course, and are with Christ, such as St. Nicholas of Myra and St. Christopher (who was mentioned in this thread).

So my question is about asking fellow Christians for help - maybe to lend a hand, do a favor, etc. Should we not ask other Christians for help ? So, in this way, instead of asking a fellow Christian for help should I ask God instead ? For example, on this forum, questions are asked of other Christians who post here -- is this showing a lack of faith ?

So to summarize, is it not better to pray to God to send someone to (using the previous example) give my daughter a ride than to ask someone (a fellow Christian) to give my daughter a ride ?
Yes, asking fellow Christians for help is acceptable. I thought you were talking about Saints.
 
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T

Thekla

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Yes, asking fellow Christians for help is acceptable. I thought you were talking about Saints.

I thought I wasn't being clear, sorry !

So, then, if we can ask saints - Christians in our Church, for example - for help, and this is not an indication of diminished faith in God, then to ask the other members of the body of Christ, the Saints - to the EO - is not different. Thus, we do not distinguish between the particular location of those in the body of Christ.

To ask assistance of another member of the body is to confirm that we are the body of Christ, and united in Him through the Holy Spirit. In times of deeper crisis, we tend to ask the assistance of those who are spiritually stronger than we are; as James says, the prayers of the righteous are effective. The Saints, those who have finished their course, are righteous, and their prayers strong.

I hope this makes sense. :)
 
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Jpark

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I thought I wasn't being clear, sorry !

So, then, if we can ask saints - Christians in our Church, for example - for help, and this is not an indication of diminished faith in God, then to ask the other members of the body of Christ, the Saints - to the EO - is not different. Thus, we do not distinguish between the particular location of those in the body of Christ.

To ask assistance of another member of the body is to confirm that we are the body of Christ, and united in Him through the Holy Spirit. In times of deeper crisis, we tend to ask the assistance of those who are spiritually stronger than we are; as James says, the prayers of the righteous are effective. The Saints, those who have finished their course, are righteous, and their prayers strong.

I hope this makes sense. :)
Yes, we can ask the Saints for their prayers, but we should, of course, ask God first for permission.

I think I understand. :)
 
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boswd

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Philothei

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It is a exercise to see if prayer can be used to communicate to other Christians i.e. Saints.... If an E.O. can post my prayer then I will know that Saints can hear it.

God does not work on "exercises" or "cause" and 'effect"

The saints with small s...are not all given the "same charisma" gift first of all...There are some Elders in the EO that they know they are given different 'gifts" by God that can indeed look at you and tell you what you are asking in prayrer...Others have the gift of prophesy like St Kosmas the Aitolian who prophesized the television.... Not all saints have the same gifts so ....the little experiment would be null..for us who actually do not have such gift...Saints who do live in constant presence with God do indeed have more discernment and we trust that since they are up in Heaven they defenately hear our prayers and intercede. Like the Elders them too have now been perfected after their earthly death though Christ to be able to nwo "hear" us more clearly. The saints become Saints (give S) after their human life has ended...Then with God's grace they attain perfection. In the EO we call this process Theosis and it truly starts with our birth to end only with Christ's second coming.
 
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Philothei

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but we should, of course, ask God first for permission.

I do not know why that is necessary or where it says we should? A saint comes from the community of believers who lived a closer life in Christ and hadthe fruits of the spirit on him I do no understand what woud be the purpose to doubt that...:(
 
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narnia59

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I'm not sure why the RC Church would do that (if in fact they have) ? St Nicholas was Bishop of Myra in Lycia which is now part of present day Turky. He went to the Council of Nicaea.
Several Saints were simply removed from the church calendar in the west to make room for others. They are now celebrated along with all of those who do not have their own feast day on All Saints Day.

There are those evidently who do not understand that removing a Saint from the church calendar of feast days does not equate to saying they are no longer a saint. Thus the urban legend lives on.
 
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Jpark

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I do not know why that is necessary or where it says we should? A saint comes from the community of believers who lived a closer life in Christ and hadthe fruits of the spirit on him I do no understand what woud be the purpose to doubt that...:(
But only God knows the heart. :idea: For His Holy Spirit indwells.

Romans 8:9; 1 Corinthians 12:3

When Samuel, a prophet of God, was brought up by the power of God (1 Samuel 28:11-19), did he come for the man or to the man? God allowed Samuel to manifest.

Did angels of God in the OT and NT come for the man or to the man? Angels never came for the man.
 
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Dorothea

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I do not know why that is necessary or where it says we should? A saint comes from the community of believers who lived a closer life in Christ and hadthe fruits of the spirit on him I do no understand what woud be the purpose to doubt that...:(
Philothie, thanks for the info on St. Paraskeve. About 5 minutes ago I asked her to pray to our Lord for the healing of the 7th nerve palsy in my son's left eye. :wave:
 
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Livindesert

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My experiment has shown that 1. Prayer dose not work between Chrsitians that are alive. 2. Therefore the big "S"aints cannot take requests but can only offer there own prayers for humanity to God. 3. You can ask live Christians to pray for you since it fosters a comming together of the church.

So to me "S"aint prayers = not good

Praying for others in the community on earth and fostering good relations there in = Good.
 
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Livindesert

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I do not know why that is necessary or where it says we should? A saint comes from the community of believers who lived a closer life in Christ and hadthe fruits of the spirit on him I do no understand what woud be the purpose to doubt that...:(

If something is in God's will he will do it. If it is not in God's will he won't. Just trust in God.
 
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