Praying TO Saints

[Philothei]

Hey Folks! Time to wake up and get back to the OP!

The OP was not about asking the saints to intercede for anyone.

The OP was about asking the saints to do things for us. As is typical, the thread has meandered into the paths of discussing the merits of having disembodied people intercede with God for embodied people such as ourselves.

Are we to be commended for asking saints to do things for us that God can, and is willing, to do? By that I mean, for example, should I pray to St. Christopher to prevent my car from sliding off the road or should I pray to God for such safety?

Saints are not gods they do not get their authority from themselves. They are vessels of grace from God they are fullfilling His will. They do intercede for Him and are His messengers. The reason that God allows for His mercy to abound in His saints is obviously so we believe in His Glory...Just like the blind man found his sight. Moses was able to show the 2 snakes to others so they may believe... Was Christ using magic or Moses using withcraft to do a trick?? Shall we say why Moses was given that special gift to perform that miracle/craft with the snakes?

Nope we do not since it is in the Bible... Christ also performed many mirales he told his Apostles they also will do miracles and they did... Peter healed many many from diseases... Did Peter stopped listening to people praying to him to intercede to God??? Or is it wrong to do so?? Do we also pray to God?? Of course we do ... But Peter is a saint as he was doing God's will also... It is the same with st. Christopher. He was a man of faith and miracles probably were attribute to him maybe with people who were travelling as he does has the reputation of a saint that one prays for good and safe travelling. I think that way we are reminded that a certain saint (like us) can attain salvation and can intercede to God for us....

Saints are already 'perfected' in the eyes of God...They have finished the "good fight" and they have received their award to live with God in heaven. It is mostly like praying to someone to intervene who as a human had a similar experience like us... or his "life" reflected or affected by a peticular issue...For example St. Paraskeve is a saint for the eyes. She was a medicine lady in her time (Roman) and she was put to death for beng a christian. She used to perform miracles healing people.Praying to St. Paraskevi who she she had the fruit of the spirit in healing those with eye illments remind us the fruit of the spirit that God has given to all of us...Since she is familiar to that type of struggle she would inercede to Her Master and Lord for our petition.

I hope that works for the OP

 

[Philothei]

It is a Protestant error to say that Catholics "declare" saints. The Church only recognizes Saints.

I would say the church (RC or EO) declares saints after the people (the conscience of the church) declare them... In the EO it takes sometimes 10 years before they recognize them...

 

[Jpark]

It is a Protestant error to say that Catholics "declare" saints. The Church only recognizes Saints.

My mistake concerning this matter.

Canonization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, it would be better for the Pope to pray to God and to seek confirmation first before recognizing saints.

 

[boswd]

My mistake concerning this matter.

Canonization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

However, it would be better for the Pope to pray to God and to seek confirmation first before recognizing saints.

Who says he doesn't

 

[Jpark]

Who says he doesn't

Then am I misinformed?

 

[Philothei]

I'll never understand praying to someone with no power to answer prayer, instead of praying to the Father in Jesus name. Do people think that Jesus or the Father are too busy to answer prayer? As a former Roman Catholic I must admit I no longer understand the rationale. Saints, who are they?

The power to answer prayers is not up to the saint but to God nothing can happen if it is not God's will to happen. God ultimately is the one who "listens" to the prayers who the saints intercede to Him. Look above posts...

When I was growing up the Church was purging saints from their list of saints because they now believed some of these saintly people never existesd. So what about all the people who prayed to the non-existent or "legendary" saints?

sources please? Even if you talk about the RC the martyrs are literaly thousands who died under the Roman emperor's persecution..so yeah I do not think the 'church' would need to make up saints.... As far as the EO I know that they are pretty careful with who they canonize a saint..
What can possible the harm be from someone who prays to another person to intercede but he was never a saint or non existed??? I think the responsibility would (if any) to the ones who "produced" that saint our of anywhere... Like God does not forgive our frail human natures?

They for sure didn't get their prayers answered unless the Lord had mercy on them. Now I hear that the Roman Catholic Church is considering sainthood for Pope Pious XII, also known as Hitlers Pope (see historian John Cornwell's book of the same name). Are you looking forward to praying to him, or do you disagree with this move? If this all sounds too harsh, I apologize. I know there are many good Christians in the Roman Catholic Church. My harsh remarks are not directed at church members, but at their leadership.

If you wish to talk about it with their leadership I would say that is a different topic

And not all RC saints deserve to be critizised as I said above for human frailty...

 

[Philothei]

Who says he doesn't

Both the RC and EO they have canonization process... I do not think they 'exclude' prayer... Any synod starting and ending has prayer...

 

[Jpark]

Both the RC and EO they have canonization process... I do not think they 'exclude' prayer... Any synod starting and ending has prayer...

Apologies for troubling this thread. But that depends on if the Pope is praying from a good heart or a evil heart.

 

[Jpark]

we know them from their fruits and in your tadition (calvinist) that would be if they are elect they bear fruits... and thus they are sainst...Makes sense now..*I do not agree since I am not a calvinist* but trying to explain it to ya... "you will know them by their fruits" the EO and RC does canonize saints who do have much fruit and bear the signs of Christ...

Good character produces good works.

 

[Thekla]

Perhaps, per the OP (can we ask Saints for help) we should also be asking

can we ask saints for help ?

Why should we ask a fellow Christian to assist us, when we can just ask God for the asistance ? Wouldn't asking a fellow Christian for help also indicate a diminished trust in God ?

 

[Jpark]

Perhaps, per the OP (can we ask Saints for help) we should also be asking

can we ask saints for help ?

Why should we ask a fellow Christian to assist us, when we can just ask God for the asistance ? Wouldn't asking a fellow Christian for help also indicate a diminished trust in God ?

Jesus Himself directs attention to God, who alone is wise and good.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

 

[Philothei]

Apologies for troubling this thread. But that depends on if the Pope is praying from a good heart or a evil heart.

And.... How do we know the heart? from the fruits..of the spirit.

But still are our hearts pure all the time when we pray? Is disposition ONLY what gives a "good prayer" it seems like meritology to me....

Is a pastor who prays "always" in a good disposition? he praying in interecesion to God... Again as humans are not perfect the other "half" is where God indeed fills us with His Grace to 'overcome' our imperfection...

God does not listen to imperfect human being?

 

[Thekla]

Jesus Himself directs all prayers to God, who alone is wise and good.

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.

I think I didn't explain myself well:

when a Saint is asked for help, it is asking for help from one who is with Christ and is spiritually more complete than we are.
We also ask saints for help - fellow Christians that we know from our Church and other places (the saints are not yet completed, but are still running the race).
Why is it ok to ask saints (another Christian at my Church) for help (like, can you bring my daughter home from her youth event, as I won't have access to a car then), instead of just asking God to provide help (like, just pray to God that there will be a ride home for my daughter, instead of asking a saint). Doesn't that show a lack of faith in God ?

 

[Philothei]

Good character produces good works.

Agreed ...what is this all about though

 

[Thekla]

When Paul asks other Christians to pray for him, and describes that he prays for other Christians, is Paul showing a diminished trust in God ?

 

[Faith.Man]

The power to answer prayers is not up to the saint but to God nothing can happen if it is not God's will to happen. God ultimately is the one who "listens" to the prayers who the saints intercede to Him. Look above posts...

My prayer life and Christian walk is more fulfilling now that I am not a Roman Catholic. I'd rather have Jesus intercede for me, thank you.

sources please? Even if you talk about the RC the martyrs are literaly thousands who died under the Roman emperor's persecution..so yeah I do not think the 'church' would need to make up saints.... As far as the EO I know that they are pretty careful with who they canonize a saint..

"Legendary" Saints: During the 20th century some former Catholic saints, such as St. Christopher, St. Valentine, St. Philomena, St. Nicholas et al., were down-graded by the Church to the status of mere "legends" because there was no documentation that they had ever lived. This did not stop their veneration in the nations which had been the centers of their cults, and for that reason they are still believed to be patron saints by many Catholics.

What can possible the harm be from someone who prays to another person to intercede but he was never a saint or non existed??? I think the responsibility would (if any) to the ones who "produced" that saint our of anywhere... Like God does not forgive our frail human natures?

That's why you should only pray to God, through His Son.

If you wish to talk about it with their leadership I would say that is a different topic...

For those that have ears to hear, let them hear.

And not all RC saints deserve to be critizised as I said above for human frailty...

We are all human and need a Saviour. Pray and worship Him, not others with their human frailty. Can you ever be certain anyone else has enough good works to merit heaven?

 

[Thekla]

We are all human and need a Saviour. Pray and worship Him, not others with their human frailty. Can you ever be certain anyone else has enough good works to merit heaven?

Note that Philothei is EO; we do not have a teaching on "merits" (which, iirc., is RCatholic).

Worship is due only to God
And agreed, all humanity is in need of a savior, the Savior; no-one can save himself or another.

But note that the words translated as "pray" in the NT include words like "ask" (erotaw), and these words are also used in more common ways (some in the NT, and in the Greek language in general).

 

[Jpark]

And.... How do we know the heart? from the fruits..of the spirit.

But still are our hearts pure all the time when we pray? Is disposition ONLY what gives a "good prayer" it seems like meritology to me....

Is a pastor who prays "always" in a good disposition? he praying in interecesion to God... Again as humans are not perfect the other "half" is where God indeed fills us with His Grace to 'overcome' our imperfection...

God does not listen to imperfect human being?

We do not know the heart. Only God knows.

Agreed ...what is this all about though

I'm not sure. Well, Matthew 25:31-46 reveals the judgment will be based on moral character.

I am sorry for bringing this up. Permit me to leave this thread. It would appear my initial assumptions were wrong.

A saint is recognized by his good deeds which demonstrates his moral character and showing the signs of Christ bodily, yes?

Is this correct?

 

[Jpark]

I think I didn't explain myself well:

when a Saint is asked for help, it is asking for help from one who is with Christ and is spiritually more complete than we are.
We also ask saints for help - fellow Christians that we know from our Church and other places (the saints are not yet completed, but are still running the race).
Why is it ok to ask saints (another Christian at my Church) for help (like, can you bring my daughter home from her youth event, as I won't have access to a car then), instead of just asking God to provide help (like, just pray to God that there will be a ride home for my daughter, instead of asking a saint). Doesn't that show a lack of faith in God ?

Would it not be better to pray to God to send a saint rather than to pray to a saint?

The Scripture of particular interest is Luke 16:24-31.

Could not God bodily resurrect a saint and send him? Or perhaps send an angel (Psalm 91:11-12)?

 

[Thekla]

Would it not be better to pray to God to send a saint rather than to pray to a saint?

The Scripture of particular interest is Luke 16:24-31.

Could not God bodily resurrect a saint and send him? Or perhaps send an angel (Psalm 91:11-12)?

Just to clarify:

saint (small "s") is used on CF to refer to Christians still on the journey - this would be me and you and others

Saint (upper case "s") is used to refer to those who have finished their course, and are with Christ, such as St. Nicholas of Myra and St. Christopher (who was mentioned in this thread).

So my question is about asking fellow Christians for help - maybe to lend a hand, do a favor, etc. Should we not ask other Christians for help ? So, in this way, instead of asking a fellow Christian for help should I ask God instead ? For example, on this forum, questions are asked of other Christians who post here -- is this showing a lack of faith ?

So to summarize, is it not better to pray to God to send someone to (using the previous example) give my daughter a ride than to ask someone (a fellow Christian) to give my daughter a ride ?