Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

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amariselle

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The Hail Mary is Angel Gabriel's prayer to Mary, asking her to become the mother of Jesus followed by a petition to Mary to pray for us.

The angel Gabriel prayed to Mary?!

Yeah, that part about asking her to pray for us sinners at the hour of our death? Not Biblical. Is she omniscient? Omnipresent?
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Abraham was sinful. Not holy. Only God is holy. We should not take all and every action of any human, including Abraham, in place of God's commandment. Whenever a patriarch does something that contradicts God, the will of God always superceeds.
I don't think you even know what the term "holy" means.

God never ever says not to pray to angels, so I don't see how he is contradicting God here. Abraham is the standard of faith, his faith is purer than mine and purer than yours, and I consider him the primary example of what our faith should be.
 
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amariselle

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I don't think Paul judged anyone after his conversion.

I think you need to go read his epistles. He even said that someone should be handed over to Satan.
 
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Korean-American Christian

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It is my understanding that the position of the Roman Catholic Church is that they are not praying 'to' the saints, but asking the saints to pray on their behalf. Jesus IS our high priest and I'm not aware of any scriptural references that suggest we need to go through any kind of triangulation to speak with God (that is, that we need to ask St Peter, or Mary, etc... to ask Jesus for us), we can speak directly to Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit.

My dear brother, I completely agree with you....Christians DO NOT NEED to ask saints to pray on their behalf (Saint Augustine, Saint Francis of Assisi, etc)
 
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Friend-of-Jesus

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I don't agree with you. How is prayer to someone other than God, "idolatry"? Prayer just means to entreat, although lately it has been narrowed to mean in entreat in a religious context. If you entreat anyone to bless you or pray for you, you are entreating them; is that idolatry?

Well. It's another clever game of semantics. Same way as if not calling it worship but veneration makes the practice less idolotrous.

Yes, the verb "to pray" has several meanings. To say that prayer to Mary or Nicolas is different to prayer to God simply by the fact of multiple definitions of "to pray" is deception. Same contents, same expectations = same thing. You call a murder, "taking lives", it's still a murder. You justify taking lives by saying one can also take life to a hospital, it's nonsense.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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I think you need to go read his epistles. He even said that someone should be handed over to Satan.
But he also says it's for their own good.

Paul doesn't believe in judging people outside of the Church (1 Corinthians 5:12), but it is ABSOLUTELY his job to exhort and rebuke people in the Church who are living a mockery and being the sons of satan rather than God. Paul is their spiritual father (1 Corinthians 4:15), and it is his job to discipline them. And if they refuse to heed, it is his job to cut them off, for even Christ enjoins this (Matthew 18:17).
 
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JacksBratt

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All the while Christ hears those prayers even before they are uttered? He's God.
I never thought of that angle..... kinda leaves no reason for the Saints or Mary to be involved at all.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Well. It's another clever game of semantics. Same way like not calling it worship but veneration makes the practices less idolotrous.

Yes, the verb "to pray" has several meanings. To say that prayer to Mary or St. Nicolas is different to prayer to God simply by the fact of multiple definitions of "to pray" is deception. Same contents, same expectations = same thing. You call a murder, "taking lives", it's still a murder.
You can call it worship, veneration, whatever you want. The fact is, the Hebrews didn't make a fine distinction between worship and veneration, the term generally translated as "worship" is used in Genesis 33:7, Genesis 42:6, and Exodus 18:7 (but in these contexts most English Bibles with translate it as "bow down," "venerate" or "did obeisance"). You probably think Joshua 7:6 is idolatry of the Ark of the Covenant. The distinction we make between veneration and worship is according to your terminology, we use "worship" today mainly to mean rendering religious service on par with sacrifice (although obviously we don't use any Sacrifice, Christ offered the final one, but there is a particular relationship expressed by that, which we use worship to mean). If you want to say we "worship" angels or saints, that is fine if you want to use the term "worship" like the Hebrews used it, or how it used to be used in English ("Your Worship", for instance), which was just meant acknowledging great worth; the King James Bible translation of Luke 14:10 reads, for instance, "But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee." If, however, you mean "worship" in the sense of service to a deity, obviously we only do that with God the Trinity.

The truth is, entreating someone isn't idolatry, and never has been. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. Entreating demons would obviously be wrong, though.

Yes, prayer has several meanings. You define it narrowly as "beseeching God", and therefore say those who pray to saints or angels, make Gods of them. No, we just don't accept your definition, which is quite new, and hardly the only one.
 
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sethrak

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Սաղմոս 103 20-21 Ամաչել Տիրոջ բոլոր անկյունները եւ Երկնային Հորը, մատուցել նրան մեր սերը եւ աղոթքները

Psalm 103:20-21 Praise the LORD, you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, who obey his word. Praise the LORD, all his heavenly hosts, you his ...


Saints, are believed to be there, part of the Heavenly Host, it is thought that we can ask them to praise the Lord Our God for us and we believe when our prayers are delivered by those so loved by the Lord, so close, it is a good thing.

I gave the shot of penicillin I knew I didn't have to pray~but I did```
 
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But he also says it's for their own good.

Paul doesn't believe in judging people outside of the Church (1 Corinthians 5:12), but it is ABSOLUTELY his job to exhort and rebuke people in the Church who are living a mockery and being the sons of satan rather than God. Paul is their spiritual father (1 Corinthians 4:15), and it is his job to discipline them. And if they refuse to heed, it is his job to cut them off, for even Christ enjoins this (Matthew 18:17).
Does your church frequently excommunicate?
 
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amariselle

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But he also says it's for their own good.

Paul doesn't believe in judging people outside of the Church (1 Corinthians 5:12), but it is ABSOLUTELY his job to exhort and rebuke people in the Church who are living a mockery and being the sons of satan rather than God. Paul is their spiritual father (1 Corinthians 4:15), and it is his job to discipline them. And if they refuse to heed, it is his job to cut them off, for even Christ enjoins this (Matthew 18:17).

And so, should we not stand up for the truth also?
 
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amariselle

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You can call it worship, veneration, whatever you want. The fact is, the Hebrews didn't make a fine distinction between worship and veneration, the term generally translated as "worship" is used in Genesis 33:7, Genesis 42:6, and Exodus 18:7 (but in these contexts most English Bibles with translate it as "bow down," "venerate" or "did obeisance"). You probably think Joshua 7:6 is idolatry of the Ark of the Covenant. The distinction we make between veneration and worship is according to your terminology, we use "worship" today mainly to mean rendering religious service on par with sacrifice (although obviously we don't use any Sacrifice, Christ offered the final one, but there is a particular relationship expressed by that, which we use worship to mean). If you want to say we "worship" angels or saints, that is fine if you want to use the term "worship" like the Hebrews used it, or how it used to be used in English ("Your Worship", for instance), which was just meant acknowledging great worth; the King James Bible translation of Luke 14:10 reads, for instance, "But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee." If, however, you mean "worship" in the sense of service to a deity, obviously we only do that with God the Trinity.

The truth is, entreating someone isn't idolatry, and never has been. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible. Entreating demons would obviously be wrong, though.

Yes, prayer has several meanings. You define it narrowly as "beseeching God", and therefore say those who pray to saints or angels, make Gods of them. No, we just don't accept your definition, which is quite new, and hardly the only one.

What about when "entreating" someone involves putting our salvation in their hands, rather than God's?
 
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sethrak

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So~it is decided then~All those who read the book the Universal Church has saved, defended and brought into the future for you to treasure and share with your Love of The Lord are not obligated to understand, believe in, pray to or for the Saints~unless your read deeply

seth
 
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prodromos

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What about when "entreating" someone involves putting our salvation in their hands, rather than God's?
Since the people we entreat subsequently entreat God, we are not putting our salvation in anyone's hands but God.
Asking the help of others humbles us and helps us become more Christ like. Praying for others builds love, which also helps us and others become more Christ like.
Win win situation for all involved.
 
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PropheticTimes

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6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

This is what Jesus said. He did not say nor ever hinted that we should go into our room, close the door and pray to anyone else.

If you think you need to go through a dead sinner in order for Jesus to hear you, then you have bigger problems than whatever it is you're asking for.
 
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