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Featured Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Korean-American Christian, Aug 7, 2017.

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  1. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    I don't think I would either.
     
  2. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Yeah 1 Cr 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged G2919 already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

    Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

    1. to separate, put asunder, to pick out, select, choose

    2. to approve, esteem, to prefer

    3. to be of opinion, deem, think, to be of opinion

    4. to determine, resolve, decree

    5. to judge
      1. to pronounce an opinion concerning right and wrong
        1. to be judged, i.e. summoned to trial that one's case may be examined and judgment passed upon it
      2. to pronounce judgment, to subject to censure
        1. of those who act the part of judges or arbiters in matters of common life, or pass judgment on the deeds and words of others
    6. to rule, govern
      1. to preside over with the power of giving judicial decisions, because it was the prerogative of kings and rulers to pass judgment
    7. to contend together, of warriors and combatants

      1. to dispute

      2. in a forensic sense

        1. to go to law, have suit at law
    Where you can see both there.
     
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  3. Blade

    Blade Veteran Supporter

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    Korean-American Christian, as much as I agree but.. walk softly... some are weak in the faith...always in everything with love. Like you did.. always show WHERE its written :)
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes Revelation not read, however, your mass displays many of the imagery of Revelation.
     
  5. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I would consider the above inaccurate.

    There is ancient attestation for the 66 book canon.

    With the exception of Esther, it matches the Athanasius canon as indicated in his Thirty-Ninth Festal Epistle, A.D. 367.

    Athanasius on the Canon of Scripture
     
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I would add to your very good explanation the fact Paul stated he would be absent from his body, present with the Lord when our perishable flesh dies. 2 Corinthians 4:16 through 2 Corinthians 5:9.
     
  7. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    Every ancient canon including Athanasius lists the Book of Baruch as canonical, and it is indeed read from in Liturgy, No protestant bible has this OT book, this book was UNIVERSALLY recognized by all until the 16th century west.

    On the other hand Athanasius was the ONLY eastern Father to list Revelation amongst the 'canonical' books. This is because in Alexandria there was a custom to read from it in liturgy, but this was short lived as the Byzantine tradition never read from this book and was reduced to the second tier even in Alexandria.
    When an Eastern christian of antiquity used the term 'canonical' book its simply a designation of the books universally read publicly by all in Liturgy.
    This is made clear in Cyril of Jerusalem canonical list , Canons 59 & 60 of Laodicea, and the canonical list of Gregory Nazianzen. The book of Revelation is a (deuterocanonical)book along with the Didache, Clement and Hermas. Yes there are deuterocanonical books of the NT with Revelation being one of them.

    For example here is what Cyril of Jerusalem said in his catechetical lectures of which Nt books are 'canonical' Guess which is missing?:

    Then of the New Testament there are four Gospels only, for the rest have false titles and are harmful. The Manicheans also wrote a Gospel according to Thomas, which being smeared with the fragrance of the name 'Gospel' destroys the souls of those who are rather simple-minded. Receive also the Acts of the Twelve Apostles; and in addition to these the seven Catholic Epistles of James, Peter, John, and Jude; and as a seal upon them all, and the latest work of disciples, the fourteen Epistles of Paul.
    But let all the rest be put aside in a secondary rank. And whatever books are not read in the churches, do not read these even by yourself, as you have already heard [me say concerning the Old Testament apocrypha]

    When Eastern fathers wrote of 'canonical books' it differed from the west. It was simply a designation of those books officially read of which the laity (whether literate or illiterate) would have the oppurtunity to 'listen' and 'hear' the word. While the second books worthy of being read would be read and studied during private time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
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  8. GUANO

    GUANO Well-Known Member

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    The adoration of saints and archangels is one of the fundamental elements of the Babylonian/Chaldean religion (astrolatry). One poster defends the practice using language of kabbalah and claims it's inherently semetic. This is not the case. Kabbalah is the Jewish adaptation of the Chaldean Mysteries. They picked it up during the captivity around 600 BC along with the book of Enoch which contains Chaldean deamonology. Prior to this time period there is no evidence that the Hebrews, Phoenicians, Sumerians, Hittites or other semetic cultures believed in a conscious afterlife and more evidence suggests otherwise. The original rites and ceremonies themselves were allegories of the stages the 'soul' passes through in its decent into the underworld of the collective unconscious and race memory... i could discuss that in detail. There is no indication that the religious elite believed in a conscious afterlife regardless of what the common folk thought.

    In regards to scriptures speaking of being with the Lord instantly on death, the argument is that 10,000 years between death and resurrection is a blink of an eye to a dead person.

    The souls of the dead can be powerful images used in ritual magic, one can even conjur and speak to these spirits or the spirits can communicate in dreams and visions but rest assured it is not the actual person and there is no consciousness involved.

    Sure, the saints and angels represent great virtues that we can all revere but let it be known that the whole practice and cosmological worldview is that of mystery Babylon.

    My concern is not exactly Christians practicing magic, because it's all throughout the OT, my concern is that many do not understand the magic they are practicing. The Chaldean institutionalised mysteries serve to watch over the organization and make it more powerful in the individual and collective mind rather than truly promote the essence of the spirits themselves.

    It's late and I'm ranting and perhaps said nothing of value lol.

    I dont have issues with any Christians from any background. I only have issues with darkness in high places.
     
  9. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    What do you believe about eternity? Do you believe in the resurrection of the dead?
     
  10. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    This is correct. And this is why when i posted up verses such as Rev 5:8 the original intent and how everyone understood it at the time was prayers to the saints. Originally only angels were given this privelege but once the veil was torn in two and the souls released from Hades and were made present in heaven they too were made part of the cloud of witnesses.

    Let me prove this is the original intent of Rev 5:8 & 8:3:

    2 And so, when you and your daughter-in-law Sarah prayed, I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, I was likewise present with you 13 When you did not hesitate to rise and leave your dinner in order to go and lay out the dead, your good deed was not hidden from me, but I was with you. 14 So now God sent me to heal you and your daughter-in-law Sarah. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One.” _Tobit 12:11-15


    Then I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. (Rev 8:2-4)



    ....
    It fell to him by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying outside at the hour of incense. 11 And there appeared to him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense. (Luke 1:8-11)


    Do you see the foreshadowing???? The priest who enters into the temple adjacent the altar to burn incense, is a type for those saved christians now in heaven and interceed on our behalf as do the angels in the previous quotes, while we here on earth pray on outside, that is this side of lif

    We see from Revelation 5. that this now includes the elders, prophets and apostles of the Old and New testament eras in heaven:

    8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints; 9 and they sang a new song, saying... Rev 5:8

    e. Do you see what the original intent was? How the greek readers understood it 1900 years ago? Heck they understood before the birth of Christ as Tobit clearly demonstrates. The prayers of the saints are us here on earth and are offered before God's throne through his heavenly servants. And yes Tobit is scripture..
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  11. GUANO

    GUANO Well-Known Member

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    I believe in the resurrection of the dead to eternal life. I'm weary of any religion that downplays or denies the existence of death as that puts Christianity in the same group as every other pagan religion and removes the necessary role of christ. I dont think the belief is particularly as damaging as others nor do I believe it affects the state of ones salvation...
     
  12. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Angels are not omnipresent. So I don't that to be a valid argument as to why saints can't be involved in the handling of prayers.

    Rev 5:8
    And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    Rev 8:4
    And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

    Forgive me...
     
  13. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    Guan we have already discussed 'soul sleep'. The Americanized western version is simply wrong. And overall the correct understanding of soul sleep IS a Babylonian/Chaldean belief. The semitic and babylonian world influenced each other. Why do you think ( the correct understanding )of soul sleep- that is the nephesh (soul) rests with its body in sheol while it's ruach (spirit) ascends to God within Christianity was taught only by the mesopotamian christians? Read the 3rd century Aphraates of Persia and the 4th century Ephraim the Syrian. Heck even Justin Martyr explains the mesopotamian triadic understanding of man, the soul, body, and spirit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  14. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    The important thing is found in Rev 8:3, "It was given him with much incense"... In other words it is God himself who allows this and is pleased by it. God wants this and allows it.
     
  15. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    What?! You mean the supreme standard for what the original Christian beliefs were is not the only wholly inspired substantive word of God, but the uninspired record of Catholic accretion of traditions of men?

    Even the veracity of the oral preaching of the apostles was subject to testing by Scripture, not vice versa, let alone the writings of uninspired men who could err, and disagree with each other (and Rome), and even abuse Scripture (as Jerome).
    Indeed, as warned, in addition to false teaching in the church.
    Which is a mere assertion, which those who sat in the seat of Moses could have used (and essentially did) against a band of itinerant preachers who reproved them by Scripture and established their claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power.

    On this issue I can present over 200 prayers to Heaven by believers, and with not one of them addressed to anyone by the Lord, and instruction on prayers which tells us to address Him, with only prayers to pagans making supplication to any other invisible being in heaven, and with quite a substantial record of what the NT church mainly believed, manifesting that prayer to created beings in Heaven (PTCBIH) was not one of them, despite this being a most basic common Catholic practice.

    This is more a matter of deduction of the obvious than it is your attempted support of PTCBIH that is a matter of interpretation, requiring extrapolation after extrapolation as if we were trying to argue for pets being in Heaven.

    Really? Then read Acts thru Revelation and tell me where you see PTCBIH. But no, it must be that you are arguing that uninspired post-apostolic men and ultimately your church is the supreme authority, based on upon the premise that the stewards of Divine revelation must be the faithful interpreters of it. Which in principal invalidates the NT church itself.
    The Mormons and like cults claim the same, and faced with the absence of even one prayer to anyone else in Heaven by believers in over 200 prayers to Heaven, the appeal to another stream of revelation is the classic Catholic recourse.

    However, men like the apostles did preach the formal word of God orally, but could speak as wholly inspired of God, and also provide new public revelation, neither of which RC popes claim to do, and yet can even require belief in an event which was so lacking in valid testimony from early tradition that Rome's scholars opposed it as being apostolic doctrine.
    You can believe what you must, but there are zero examples of prayer to anyone else in Heaven by believers in over 200 prayers to Heaven in Scripture.
     
  16. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    The analogy of your opinion is apt. SS preachers can enjoin obedience to the oral preaching of the word, under the premise that it is Scripture, as that of the apostles was, but as said, men like the apostles could speak as wholly inspired of God, and also provide new public revelation, neither of which RC popes claim to do.

    Meanwhile, what even the apostles orally preached was subject to testing by the wholly inspired written word of God, and not vice versa. For it is manifest that writing is God's means of preservation. (Exodus 17:14; 34:1,27; Deuteronomy 10:4; 17:18; 27:3; 31:24; Joshua 1:8; 2 Chronicles 34:15,18-19; Ps. 19:7-11; 119; John 20:31; Acts 17:11; Revelation 1:1; 20:12, 15;Matthew 4:5-7; 22:29; Lk. 24:44,45; Acts 17:11)

    And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book.. (Exodus 17:14)
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. (Exodus 34:1)
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. (Exodus 34:27)
    And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing.. (Deuteronomy 10:4)
    And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law,..(Deuteronomy 27:3)
    "Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever: (Isaiah 30:8; cf. Job 19:23) "

    And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites: (Deuteronomy 17:18)
    And thou shalt write upon them all the words of this law, when thou art passed over, that thou mayest go in unto the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, a land that floweth with milk and honey; as the Lord God of thy fathers hath promised thee. (Deuteronomy 27:3)
    " And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, (Deuteronomy 31:24) "
    This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success. (Joshua 1:8)
    "But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. (John 20:31) "
    Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; (Revelation 1:19)
    "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Revelation 20:12) "
    "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:15) "

    As is abundantly evidenced, as written, Scripture became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God.

    And it was not the veracity of Scripture that subject to testing by oral preaching/tradition, but oral preaching was subject to testing by Scripture:

    These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)
    And it was not because oral tradition preserved the Word of God that brought about a national revival, but because of the wholly inspired-of-God written word:

    And Hilkiah answered and said to Shaphan the scribe, I have found the book of the law in the house of the Lord. And Hilkiah delivered the book to Shaphan. (2 Chronicles 34:15)
    Then Shaphan the scribe told the king, saying, Hilkiah the priest hath given me a book. And Shaphan read it before the king. And it came to pass, when the king had heard the words of the law, that he rent his clothes. (2 Chronicles 34:18-19)


    Nor was it passed-down oral tradition that was ever lauded like the written word of God, (Ps. 19:7-11; 119) and was the authority the Lord reproved the devil and religious leadership by, and substantiated His clams by, and opened the minds of the disciples to. (Mt. 4; 22; Lk. 24:44,45)

    Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. (Matthew 4:5-7)

    Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. (Matthew 22:29)

    And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (Luke 24:44-45)

    Scripture is the only wholly inspired substantive transcendent standard, to which all men are to submit.

    And looking through the God-inspired record of what know the NT church believed (Acts onward), we see that the Catholic distinctives are not there , but are contrary to it.
     
  17. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not everything that Rome did was wrong, and yes they did many bad things. However, not every tradition was concocted. Compare their worship to the Eastern Churches from which they inherited the "Holy Traditions". "Holy Traditions" are those that come to us as revealed by Christ and His Apostles.

    Where we find all of the ancient Apostolic Churches agreeing we can be certain that it is the faith once delivered to the Saints.

    Not everything that a Christian would want to know about Christianity is written in the NT scriptures... for instance, it was the daily habit (multiple times a day) of Christ and the Apostles to pray the Psaltar. That's why we have the psalms in our bible. But hardly anybody in the west does that today.

    Much love.

    Forgive me...
     
  18. buzuxi02

    buzuxi02 Veteran

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    You use the Diatessaron?
     
  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Which simply does not translate into praying to them in Heaven, which is nowhere seen in over 200 prayers by believers in Scripture. Only pagans prayed to someone else but God in heaven.
    Which is a mere assertion, but which also simply does not translate into praying to them in Heaven.
    Which is a case of praying for souls who were executed by God due to mortal sin - for which Rome says there is not hope - in hope that they would see the resurrection (of the just), and not escape from RC purgatory.

    Regardless, this also simply does not translate into praying to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord.
    Presuming presumed Onesiphorus was dead, this is more a wish than a prayer, that of mercy at the judgment seat of Christ, and it is not a prayer for escape from Purgatory.

    Regardless, this also simply does not translate into praying to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord.
     
  20. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Obviously not.

    Forgive me...
     
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