Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

[PeaceB]

Don't act like it's the first time you've seen those verses. They've been shared multiple times.

No need to by cynical. I was happy to see the Scriptures, which the Catholic Church affirms.

 

[amariselle]

No need to by cynical. I was happy to see the Scriptures, which the Catholic Church affirms.

You acted like I and others have never once shared Scripture.

And you know, you can always go read them for yourself.

 

[prodromos]

I still haven't seen any Scriptural support to back up the claim that we should pray to "dead" saints.

I don’t recall you asking for any.

Or that this is what being part of the body of Christ means, and what is meant by loving one another.

Perhaps you could post the Scriptures that say we cease being in th body of Christ from when we die until the general resurrection.

What I do read in Scripture is that God forbids communicating with those who are no longer living on this earth.

Necromancy is forbidden, which is divining the future through contact with the dead. We don't do that in any way, shape or form.

 

[prodromos]

I gave the definition. But go look it up for yourself.

You gave 'a' definition, not 'the' definition.

 

[PeaceB]

You acted like I and others have never once shared Scripture.

I simply stated what Catholics always say at every Mass during the liturgy of the Word. If you interpret that as me acting like you have never once shared Scripture, that is unfortunate, because that was not my intent.

And you know, you can always go read them for yourself.

Amen. I will start with 2 Maccabees.

 

[amariselle]

I simply stated what Catholics always say at every Mass during the liturgy of the Word. If you interpret that as me acting like you have never once shared Scripture, that is unfortunate, because that was not my intent.

Amen. I will start with 2 Maccabees.

Go right ahead.

 

[amariselle]

You gave 'a' definition, not 'the' definition.

I gave the modern, currently used definition, rather than the 16th century antiquated one no one uses anymore.

 

[amariselle]

I don’t recall you asking for any.

I have, multiple times. As have others.

Perhaps you could post the Scriptures that say we cease being in th body of Christ from when we die until the general resurrection.

Perhaps you could post the Scriptures that tell us we are to pray to those in the body of Christ who have left this earthly life.

Why didn't Paul ever mention such a thing for instance?

Necromancy is forbidden, which is divining the future through contact with the dead. We don't do that in any way, shape or form.

You do contact the (physically) dead though, and you make requests of them, including for help in day to day life, and also perhaps for future events or circumstances.

So, what's the difference? It's still necromancy.

 

[prodromos]

I gave the modern, currently used definition, rather than the 16th century antiquated one no one uses anymore.

Well that's not true. The vast majority of Christians still use the original meaning.

 

[amariselle]

Well that's not true. The vast majority of Christians still use the original meaning.

I think if you asked the "vast majority. Of Christians" whether they think any and all requests made of anyone, (say for example, "could you get the door for me?"), is "praying", you'd find that they say absolutely not.

Prayer is a request or praise directed to God or any other person or object of worship.

It is not just any and all random questions asked of other people that are part of everyday life.

 

[prodromos]

I have, multiple times. As have others.

Not in the post I responded to.

Perhaps you could post the Scriptures that tell us we are to pray to those in the body of Christ who have left this earthly life.

Scripture doesn't make a distinction.

Why didn't Paul ever mention such a thing for instance?

Because there is no distinction.

You do contact the (physically) dead though, and you make requests of them, including for help in day to day life, and also perhaps for future events or circumstances.

So, what's the difference? It's still necromancy.

Nope.

 

[prodromos]

I think if you asked the "vast majority. Of Christians" whether they think any and all requests made of anyone, (say for example, "could you get the door for me?"), is "praying", you'd find that they say absolutely not.

The traditional Churches by far make up the majority of Christians. You've been given a sampling of responses from Eastern Orthodox and Catholics, all traditional.

Prayer is a request or praise directed to God or any other person or object of worship.

It is not just any and all random questions asked of other people that are part of everyday life.

A request or entreaty is prayer. Doesn't matter who it is directed towards.

 

[amariselle]

The traditional Churches by far make up the majority of Christians. You've been given a sampling of responses from Eastern Orthodox and Catholics, all traditional.

A request or entreaty is prayer. Doesn't matter who it is directed towards.

That's absolutely ridiculous.

But by all means, continue with your common and broad conception of prayer.

I'll simply pray to God alone.

 

[PropheticTimes]

7Their worship is a farce,
for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.
8For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”
Mark 7:7-8

 

[amariselle]

Not in the post I responded to.

Scripture doesn't make a distinction.

Because there is no distinction.

Nope.

There is absolutely a distinction between the living and the (physically) dead in Scripture and between our earthly, perishing bodies and our promised heavenly, incorruptible bodies.Paul did make such distinctions himself as well, but he never once said a thing about praying to anyone who has left this life, even when he himself knew he would soon die.

 

[FenderTL5]

I gave the modern, currently used definition, rather than the 16th century antiquated one no one uses anymore.

To be accurate, wouldn't you need to use the definition that was intended at the time of the writing/origin of the prayer? If not, the meaning is changed.

 

[amariselle]

To be accurate, wouldn't you need to use the definition that was intended at the time of the writing/origin of the prayer? If not, the meaning is changed.

To be accurate, we need to understand what a person usually means by "prayer." Most people do not consider everyday requests made to living family and friends as "prayer."

Let's not confuse things. We don't live in 16th century England. Language has changed.

 

[FenderTL5]

There is absolutely a distinction between the living and the (physically) dead in Scripture and between our earthly, perishing bodies and our promised heavenly, incorruptible bodies.Paul did make such distinctions himself as well, but he never once said a thing about praying to anyone who has left this life, even when he himself knew he would soon die.

There is, of course, the example in scripture of Paul saying/writing a quick prayer for a recently deceased person and his family. Also in scripture Paul mentions members of his parish 'being baptized on behalf of the dead..'. This is part of his argument in favor of the resurrection. His point was, if there's no resurrection, why bother with the baptism..
I find it very curious that he does not condemn the practice.

 

[amariselle]

There is, of course, the example in scripture of Paul saying/writing a quick prayer for a recently deceased person and his family. Also in scripture Paul mentions members of his parish 'being baptized on behalf of the dead..'. This is part of his argument in favor of the resurrection. His point was, if there's no resurrection, why bother with the baptism..
I find it very curious that he does not condemn the practice.

Descriptive, not prescriptive.

Many have struggled with what Paul was referring to. Although, he never said one way or the other whether it should be done, and there is absolutely no indication of such a practice anywhere else in the NT. Therefore, there is no reason to make such a thing common practice. He could have been referring to some pagan custom for all we know.

 

[FenderTL5]

To be accurate, we need to understand what a person usually means by "prayer." Most people do not consider everyday requests made to living family and friends as "prayer."

Let's not confuse things. We don't live in 16th century England. Language has changed.

You have this exactly backwards.. To be accurate, you need to know the usage at its origin.
As example; the Flintstones cartoon theme uses the following phrase, "we'll have a gay old time.." Now, which definition of 'gay' is accurate, the one the writer intended or it's meaning in the current common vernacular?