Praying to Saints? - Praying to those who are already in Heaven?

[amariselle]

Please cite a specific verse to back this up.

Prayer is not worship. The etymology of the word argue against this, as at one time "pray" was used in ordinary speech, as in "pray" to mean "ask".

Well, I guess if someone just prays to God to ask Him for things then they probably pray without worship. However, even then, we should not be asking things of people who have died, only of God.

As for Scriptural support for praying only to God, how about the commandment, "thou shalt have no other gods." Honestly idolatry is dealt with so many times in Scripture, it boggles my mind how anyone could think it's okay to pray to anyone other than the Lord.

 

[Constantine the Sinner]

So do many Catholics. Not dogma.

Pope JP has used the term in official documents

 

[PeaceB]

Here is what the Bible says about "honouring" the things God has created. Remember, He is a jealous God and will not share His glory with another.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.- Romans 1:18-25

I have read the New Testament, but thank you. It is always good to attempt to quote Scripture, no matter how much one may misunderstand it.

 

[amariselle]

Psalm 45

Okay, let's see:

1 My heart is inditing a good matter: I speak of the things which I have made touching the king: my tongue is the pen of a ready writer.

2 Thou art fairer than the children of men: grace is poured into thy lips: therefore God hath blessed thee for ever.

3 Gird thy sword upon thy thigh, O most mighty, with thy glory and thy majesty.

4 And in thy majesty ride prosperously because of truth and meekness and righteousness; and thy right hand shall teach thee terrible things.

5 Thine arrows are sharp in the heart of the king's enemies; whereby the people fall under thee.

6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.

7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

8 All thy garments smell of myrrh, and aloes, and cassia, out of the ivory palaces, whereby they have made thee glad.

9 Kings' daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the queen in gold of Ophir.

10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father's house;

11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.

12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.

13 The king's daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.

14 She shall be brought unto the king in raiment of needlework: the virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.

15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they be brought: they shall enter into the king's palace.

16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.

17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.

So where exactly does this Psalm say Mary is the "Queen of Heaven"?

 

[amariselle]

I have read the New Testament, but thank you. It is always good to attempt to quote Scripture, no matter how much one may misunderstand it.

Yep. It's pretty clear. We are not to worship created things rather than the Creator.

 

[amariselle]

Pope JP has used the term in official documents

Yes, and many Catholics want her officially declared "Co-Redemptrix."

 

[amariselle]

There's nothing wrong with praising a human being, either. We do it all the time in our ordinary lives.

Depends if you're doing so in an attempt to make contact with someone who has died, especially in regards to asking them to contact God for you, and perhaps even going so far as to tell them you're their "slave" or you put your salvation in their hands.

Some of these prayers say exactly that.

 

[PeaceB]

Pope JP has used the term in official documents

Maybe, but that would not make it dogma. Do you have any particular documents in mind?

Here is what Wikipedia states, FWIW

Co-Redemptrix - Wikipedia

In August 1996, a Mariological Congress was held in Częstochowa, Poland, where a commission was established in response to a request of the Holy See. The congress sought the opinion of scholars present there regarding the possibility of proposing a fifth Marian dogma on Mary as Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, and Advocate. The commission unanimously declared that it was not opportune, voting 23-0 against the proposed dogma.[23][24]​

By 1998 it was doubtful the Vatican was going to consider new Marian dogmas. The papal spokesman stated "This is not under study by the Holy Father nor by any Vatican congregation or commission."[24] A leading Mariologist stated the petition was "theologically inadequate, historically a mistake, pastorally imprudent and ecumenically unacceptable."[25] Pope John Paul II cautioned against "all false exaggeration";[26] his teaching and devotion to Mary has strictly been "exalting Mary as the first among believers but concentrating all faith on the Triune God and giving primacy to Christ."[25] When asked in an interview in 2000 whether the Church would go along with the desire to solemnly define Mary as Co-Redemptrix, then-Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) responded that,​

the formula “Co-redemptrix” departs to too great an extent from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers and therefore gives rise to misunderstandings. ...Everything comes from Him [Christ], as the Letter to the Ephesians and the Letter to the Colossians, in particular, tell us; Mary, too, is everything she is through Him. The word “Co-redemptrix” would obscure this origin. A correct intention being expressed in the wrong way.[27]​

Benedict further explained his notable opposition of a dogmatization, concluding that the title is sufficiently included in other better expressions of Catholic Marian teaching. "For example, the Scriptural account is unsatisfactory, and above all, we are talking most of the time of a merit de congruo which would seem, by the very definition of de congruo, not fit into the exact clearness needed for dogmatic definitions."[citation needed]​

 

[amariselle]

Alright, I'm out.

If people want to continue praying completely unbiblical prayers to those who have died and left this earthly life, that is of course up to them.

I'll stick with praying to God.

 

[PeaceB]

We are not to worship created things rather than the Creator.

Well that is something we can agree upon.

 

[prodromos]

You're free to believe as you like. Since we can and should praise God (and not man) in prayer, that would be worship.

Prayer to God is talking to God. It can be worship but it isnt by definition. Talking to man is not worship. I'm not worshipping you, am I?

Also, you may not realize that there are many liturgical "Protestant" churches. I grew up on one.

As did I. They had long since done away with liturgical chant. These days they rarely use the liturgy. It has all become about what is pleasing to the congregation, not about what is pleasing to God.

 

[amariselle]

Prayer to God is talking to God. It can be worship but it isnt by definition. Talking to man is not worship. I'm not worshipping you, am I?

If you start telling me your salvation is in my hands, that you need to have your prayers go through me to reach God, that you are "consecrating" yourself to me "body and soul" and all you own, for me to dispose of as I will or that you are my "slave", well then yes, you would be worshipping me. I'm sure you would agree.

Yet, somehow when these things are said to Mary and the Saints it's not worship.

As did I. They had long since done away with liturgical chant. These days they rarely use the liturgy. It has all become about what is pleasing to the congregation, not about what is pleasing to God.

False. I still attend the Lutheran church I grew up in when I visit my parents, and they still absolutely use the liturgy.

 

[buzuxi02]

The Scriptures clearly teach the intercession of the heavenly saints. Too bad all of Protestants since their creation have intentionally never used the Koine original Greek to actually understand what their eroneous English bibles cannot convey. Every protestant has ALWAYS promoted fraud because their intentionally manipulated and mistranslated bibles are a fraud.

 

[amariselle]

The Scriptures clearly teach the intercession of the heavenly saints. Too bad all of Protestants since their creation have intentionally never used the Koine original Greek to actually understand what their eroneous English bibles cannot convey. Every protestant has ALWAYS promoted fraud because their intentionally manipulated and mistranslated bibles are a fraud.

No where in Scripture does it ever say that we are to pray to anyone who has died and left this earthly life.

 

[buzuxi02]

No where in Scripture does it ever say that we are to pray to anyone who has died and left this earthly life.

Well, we may use different scriptures then.

 

[amariselle]

Well, we may use different scriptures then.

Probably not.

 

[buzuxi02]

Does your scripture have the book of Tobit? Does your totality of scriptures clarify why the Jews had to stand outside the temple during the hour of incense while the priest alone stood inside the temple offeringthe prayers of all the people who are on the outside; because he alone was on the inside by the altar of incense closest he Holy of holies? Does your scripture then convey who the 24 elders in heaven are who are given bowls full of incense offering the prayers of the living saints to God? ( Revelation 5:8) Why is incense offered to the heavenly witnesses scriptute claiming this privelege is given to them to offer it with the prayers of the earthly saints ? (Revelation 8:3)

 

[amariselle]

Does your scripture have the book of Tobit? Does your totality of scriptures clarify why the Jews stood outside the temple to pray during the hour of incense while the priest alone stood inside the temple offering all the prayers of the people who are on the outside because he alone was on the inside by the altar of incense nearby the Holy of holies? Does your scripture then convey who the 24 elders in heaven who have bowls full of incense offering to God the prayers of the living saints? ( Revelation 5:8) Why is incense offered to the heavenly witnesses to offer it with the prayers of the earthly saints ? (Revelation 8:3)

Ah yes, the Apocrypha.

But yes, my Bible does have the book Revelation.

 

[buzuxi02]

Told you we have different bibles. Even the language we use as the primary reading is different.

 

[amariselle]

Told you we have different bibles. Even the language we use as the primary reading is different.

Well, the Apocrypha is a whole other issue entirely. And not the subject of this thread specifically.