Praying to Mary???? or

[stuart lawrence]

The fact is that Mary is in the same place that David is:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Mary is also both dead, buried and not ascended into the heavens. Mary is asleep in Jesus awaiting the resurrection of the dead which is the hope of every Christian.

Paul said that if there was no resurrection of the dead then he would just eat drink and be merry today because after death it would have been all over! If we went to paradise at death then why would Paul make a statement statement such as this. If there was no resurrection of the dead why would there be no hope for the christian? Why would those who would have fallen asleep in Christ be perished if they are actually already alive in Paradise of Heaven?

Paradise is NOT Heaven.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Paradise is NOT Heaven.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote

Well Regardless.

If believers went to Paradise then why did Paul say that if there was no resurrection of the dead then he would eat drink and be merry today because tomorrow we die.

Read the entire chapter of 1 Cor 15. Existing beliefs out the window. That is what I did yesterday.

The hope of the believer is in the resurrection of the dead, not in death. If Jesus was not resurrected then there would be no resurrection of the dead and if there is no resurrection of the dead then all our hope would be in vain because that would mean the end for us. That is what Paul is saying. And he explains later on in the chapter that the resurrection of the dead happens at the last trump and not when every person individually dies.

Lets say there was no resurrection of the dead but instead at death the believers went to Paradise. Would all hope be lost?

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Also Jesus promised.
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

If at death we go to be with Jesus then Jesus isn't accurate with his promise. Jesus stated that he will have communion again with him when he comes again. When he comes again, then we will be able to be with him.

When Lazarus died, Martha did not say that she will be able to see him again in paradise but at the final resurrection. At least in the bible it is clear to me that they did believed that when they died, they would fall asleep in Jesus and not rise again until the resurrection. This is what Job said:

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

Job clearly did not believe that when he died he was going to be taken to Paradise and be with Jesus.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Whereas some claim that St. Mary is buried, uniquely among such figures, we lack relics, placing her clearly in the same category as St. Elias, that is to say, supporting the doctrine of the assumption of her body into Heavenon the occasion of her death.

This occasion is commemorated by the Dormition Fast, one of the four major fasts in the Holy Orthodox Church. The others are the Great Lent, the Nativity Fast (Advent) and the Apostle's Fast (which follows the Sunday of All Saints, which on our Calendar is the Sunday after Pentecost).

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Whereas some claim that St. Mary is buried, uniquely among such figures, we lack relics, placing her clearly in the same category as St. Elias, that is to say, supporting the doctrine of the assumption of her body into Heavenon the occasion of her death.

This occasion is commemorated by the Dormition Fast, one of the four major fasts in the Holy Orthodox Church. The others are the Great Lent, the Nativity Fast (Advent) and the Apostle's Fast (which follows the Sunday of All Saints, which on our Calendar is the Sunday after Pentecost).

We can't say what the scriptures did not say though.

The bible explicitly says what happened with Elijah. Yet, nobody that I know prays to Elijah and asks Elijah to pray for them. So its even more problematic to pray to mary.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

We can't say what the scriptures did not say though.

Sure we can. I do it every day.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Sure we can. I do it every day.

Well ok, but i hope you don't teach people that.

 

[prodromos]

We can't say what the scriptures did not say though.

I guess since there is no mention of you in the bible, we can safely dismiss your very existence?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Sure we can. I do it every day.

Did Elijah enter the TRUE heaven to dwell with God?

NO ONE( NO ONE) has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man
John3:13

 

[Thursday]

Did Elijah enter the TRUE heaven to dwell with God?

NO ONE( NO ONE) has ever entered Heaven, except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man
John3:13

Not true. Jesus opened up the gates.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Not true. Jesus opened up the gates.

So is it not true in your view that before Christ walked this earth, no one had entered the TRUE heaven but the son of man?

 

[JacksBratt]

Sure we can. I do it every day.

I think that the point is.... if the Bible states that "God loved Enoch so much that He took him" and that Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, and that Christ was seen rising up until a cloud covered Him... we can be assured that these three individuals were taken away with no body to bury.

Can we then say that Mary's body was not left to bury just because the Bible doesn't say it was?

I believe that if it were so, the Bible would have told us. There is no reason to believe that Christ's mother did not die and her body buried just like every other human on this earth.

It is true that we cannot say what the scriptures did not say.

We cannot say that Christ enjoyed chess, that King David didn't like goat milk, that the apostles sold all the fish they caught that day and bought Jesus some new sandals and some tents......

We can only have solid knowledge of what the scriptures say. Adding to them or speculating other things that are not mentioned, is a very slippery slope and ends up with dogma that is false.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Can we then say that Mary's body was not left to bury just because the Bible doesn't say it was?

Yes. The Bible could well have included a description of this; the final decision on the contents of the NT canon was made by St. Athanasius, who did believe in the bodily assumption of St. Mary on the occasion of her death.

 

[JacksBratt]

Yes. The Bible could well have included a description of this; the final decision on the contents of the NT canon was made by St. Athanasius, who did believe in the bodily assumption of St. Mary on the occasion of her death.

So, if this, one man, believed in this "unstated" concept, is he not biased in his translations?

Why did he not put any script in the canon that would give reason to believe this "undocumented" belief?

IMHO...the bible doesn't state it... it would be an important piece of information, therefore, I believe that there is no reason whatsoever, to uphold that premise.
I believe it is simple wishful thinking combined with the other non biblical concept of Mary being anything more than a special human being, chosen by God to be the mother of our savior.

It falls into the same category as her being a perpetual virgin, sinless life or Holy vessel. Non of which is based on the scripture that we have canonized.

 

[PropheticTimes]

I

I just dont get it, when the bible states no man cometh unto the Father but by me (Jesus).....

And that's it. That's pure truth. Mary and all the saints are humans just like us, and are awaiting judgment, just like us.

My whole family is Roman Catholic. I have never ascribed to Catholicism myself simply because my scriptural and historical research has shown me what exactly it is, and I will leave it at that because I'm not here to disrespect anyone's beliefs.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

But isn't that having a form of god before the TRUE GOD??
Thou shalt have no other gods before me......

This is what a Catholic Apolgetics site says on praying to/with Mary and the Saints. Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

The big problem I see in all of this is, creatures do not have the attributes of God ---- all knowing, being everywhere at the same time. Creatures are simply not equipped to hear everyone's prayers in different languages at the same time. It would be possible for the Holy Spirit to do that, but the limitations of a creature would not be able to keep up with the Holy Spirit.

There is no reason to pray to creatures, when We have direct access to God's Throne and both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are praying for us.

Is there any example in the Bible of people on earth or in heaven praying directly to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

You said nothing happens because they are dead. I responded to correct two errors. One, that nothing happens, since there are thousands of documented miracles throughout the history of the Church that have occurrd through the intercessions of the Saints, and two, which follows from the above, stuff happens because they are very much alive in Christ. St Paul sent out handkerchiefs through which people were healed and demons were cast out. Does that make Paul=deity in significance?

There are thousands of miracles even more tbh that miracles have occurred through praying to JESUS though and I believe that the only reason some churches who pray to dead individuals still see some manifestations of God is because they also pray to God. If you were to alone pray to saint peter or Mary for an extended period of time without praying to God nothing would happen guaranteed. The bible suggest that sure after death people go to christ or whatever but it doesn't ever state that they interfere with humans on Earth or have interactions with them, that's not biblical.

And again if praying to Paul could bring about salvation or any change in your situation then you would have to argue he's a deity or some component of the trinity is what i'm suggesting (if you believe in trinity) becuase that kind of power is what JESUS/God has. I'm not stating I believe they are gods because why would I if I believe they are dead and then just with christ? Why would I if i simply believe they were men used by God in a unique major way no one else will be used like and that's it?

 

[Solomons Porch]

There are thousands of miracles even more tbh that miracles have occurred through praying to JESUS though and I believe that the only reason some churches who pray to dead individuals still see some manifestations of God is because they also pray to God. If you were to alone pray to saint peter or Mary for an extended period of time without praying to God nothing would happen guaranteed. The bible suggest that sure after death people go to christ or whatever but it doesn't ever state that they interfere with humans on Earth or have interactions with them, that's not biblical.

And again if praying to Paul could bring about salvation or any change in your situation then you would have to argue he's a deity or some component of the trinity is what i'm suggesting (if you believe in trinity) becuase that kind of power is what JESUS/God has. I'm not stating I believe they are gods because why would I if I believe they are dead and then just with christ? Why would I if i simply believe they were men used by God in a unique major way no one else will be used like and that's it?

Very good point!

 

[Solomons Porch]

This is what a Catholic Apolgetics site says on praying to/with Mary and the Saints. Praying to the Saints | Catholic Answers

The big problem I see in all of this is, creatures do not have the attributes of God ---- all knowing, being everywhere at the same time. Creatures are simply not equipped to hear everyone's prayers in different languages at the same time. It would be possible for the Holy Spirit to do that, but the limitations of a creature would not be able to keep up with the Holy Spirit.

There is no reason to pray to creatures, when We have direct access to God's Throne and both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are praying for us.

Is there any example in the Bible of people on earth or in heaven praying directly to the Holy Spirit or to Jesus?

We have direct access.

 

[prodromos]

There are thousands of miracles even more tbh that miracles have occurred through praying to JESUS though and I believe that the only reason some churches who pray to dead individuals still see some manifestations of God is because they also pray to God.

I accept that this is your opinion.

If you were to alone pray to saint peter or Mary for an extended period of time without praying to God nothing would happen guaranteed.

Once again, I accept that this is your opinion.

The bible suggest that sure after death people go to christ or whatever but it doesn't ever state that they interfere with humans on Earth or have interactions with them, that's not biblical.

Neither are you, biblical, yet here you are.

And again if praying to Paul could bring about salvation

why do some people feel the need to argue strawmen. Weak arguments, I guess.

or any change in your situation then you would have to argue he's a deity or some component of the trinity is what i'm suggesting (if you believe in trinity) becuase that kind of power is what JESUS/God has.

I guess your argument is with Scripture then, because those things did happen. People were healed by these handkerchiefs from Paul and had demons driven out by them, but no one apart from you has argued that he is a deity because of it.