PRAYING TO MARY AND THE SAINTS?

[LoveGodsWord]

By all means.
None of the above describe what necromancy was, the summoning of the spirits of the dead or the raising of the dead through incantations and specific rituals in order to divine the future or seek hidden knowledge. Asking the Saints to pray for us is not in any way related to necromancy.

ALL of the above quotes you posted of mine earlier do indeed describe what NECROMANCY is and none of those quoted posts you have provided show I have changed my position at all. They are all speaking of the same things and that is in reference to COMMUNICATING to the dead through prayer.

This has been partly posted elsewhere to someone else but is relevant here.

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 show that commincation with the dead is an abomination to God and one of the reasons the Gentiles were driven from their lands. The Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up the word necromancy which means to seek and communicate and ask of the dead.

The word דּרשׁ; dârash emphesizes the inquiring part of the scripture this is highlighted in reference to prayers to the dead (Mary and the saints).

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 words for necromancer has application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact and communication with the dead because it is the dead you are praying or inquiring of or communicating to.

Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.

Looking at the Hebrew word meanings of necromancer which God calls an abomination, what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?

Hope this is helpful.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Yes really! And it is against the rules.

You have an erroneous understanding of what you quote from the Scriptures, so you don't actually answer the questions or respond to the points raised.

You apparently have nothing new to share, since you have never responded to the point I made about how abundantly God blesses seeking the prayers of the Saints.

Sorry brother but all I am hearing here in this post is your word's over God's WORD quoted earlier and nothing to address the scriptures posted to you in regards to the OP. Do you have some scriptures to share? There is no need to attack the messenger brother as the scriptures posted to you are God's WORD not mine.

Please feel free to address the posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with you. Or did you wish to share anything different in relation to the OP? You are free to believe what you want brother as this is only a friendly discussion to me as I hope it is also to you.

The OP is only asking questions and providing scripture for friendly discussion. If you have no scripture to share showing we are to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints) just be honest and say so.

There is no need to get upset as we are all brothers in Christ here and God's WORD should be our blessing and our guide to believe and follow. If you have no scripture showing that we should pray to the dead (Mary and the saints) we will have to agree to disagree. For me brother, only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it. This is posted with all love and respect brother.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Interpretation.

Alive in Christ is different to being dead in Christ. You are looking at it through Sola Scripture glasses of which are misted up a great deal my brother. No offence meant.

Out of here now. God bless everyone.

To be alive in Christ means to have salvation today by believing and following God's WORD. No offence taken. To me only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

 

[prodromos]

ALL of the above quotes you posted of mine earlier do indeed describe what NECROMANCY is and none of those quoted posts you have provided show I have changed my position at all. They are all speaking of the same things and that is in reference to COMMUNICATING to the dead through prayer.

This has been partly posted elsewhere to someone else but is relevant here.

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 show that commincation with the dead is an abomination to God and one of the reasons the Gentiles were driven from their lands. The Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up the word necromancy which means to seek and communicate and ask of the dead.

The word דּרשׁ; dârash emphesizes the inquiring part of the scripture this is highlighted in reference to prayers to the dead (Mary and the saints).

DEUTERONOMY 18:10-12 words for necromancer has application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact and communication with the dead because it is the dead you are praying or inquiring of or communicating to.

Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.

Looking at the Hebrew word meanings of necromancer which God calls an abomination, what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?

Hope this is helpful.

Once again you violate the rules by reposting what you have already posted.
Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums

• Repetitive posting of similar or identical posts or threads is not allowed.

It is not helpful and prevents any meaningful dialogue which is probably why it is against the rules.

 

[prodromos]

Sorry brother God's WORD disagrees with you.

It doesn't. Your faulty interpretation of God's Word might, but we've been over this already.

Once again you have deliberately avoided responding to my point. If asking the Saints to pray for us was against God's will, why then does He so abundantly bless the practice?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Once again you violate the rules by reposting what you have already posted.
Terms of Service and Christian Forum Rules | Christian Forums

• Repetitive posting of similar or identical posts or threads is not allowed.

It is not helpful and prevents any meaningful dialogue which is probably why it is against the rules.

Not at all brother. I am replying to your repeated posts with the scriptures you ignored. Please feel free to respond to the scriptures here that disagree with you or the OP here brother. If not let's agree to disagree.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word

 

[LoveGodsWord]

It doesn't. Your faulty interpretation of God's Word might, but we've been over this already.

Once again you have deliberately avoided responding to my point. If asking the Saints to pray for us was against God's will, why then does He so abundantly bless the practice?

I believe it does brother. If you disagree with the scriptures I have posted please feel free to respond to my posts and the scriptures in them that disagree with you.

 

[prodromos]

Not at all brother. I have posted God's WORD. If you disagree with the scriptures I have posted please feel free to respond to my posts and the scriptures that disagree with you.

The Scriptures don't disagree with me.
So why does God so abundantly bless asking the prayers of the Saints if, as you claim, it is against His will?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The Scriptures don't disagree with me. So why does God so abundantly bless asking the prayers of the Saints if, as you claim, it is against His will?

If you do not believe the scritures I have posted disagree with you brother please show why you believe they do not? I did not say that the prayers from the living saints are against God's will. The saints here are the prayers of the living saints that God blesses not the dead *MATTHEW 22:32; ECCLESIASTIES 9:5-6. There is no scripture that says we are to pray to the dead (Mary and the dead saints). In fact we are warned against trying to communicate to the dead as shown through the scriptures earlier.

 

[prodromos]

Still no response.

I have seen people with inoperable cancer completely healed through the prayers of the Saints (the ones you consider to be dead). I have seen people with broken and crushed bones have their joints suddenly restored through the prayers of those same Saints. I've read the testimony of a young boy who grew up unable to walk because he was born with an incomplete spinal cord, who through the prayers of a Saint (another dead guy according to you) had his spinal chord completed and was able to immediately walk. I've read the testimony of a young child dying of cancer, who passed away while his mother and a nurse watched, only to be brought back to life moments later completely free of cancer, again through the prayers of another Saint. I've seen my own son healed from a serious injury after being annointed with myrrh which streams from the bones of another Saint.

If asking the prayers of the Saints, those righteous ones of God who have passed away, is such an abomination, why does God listen and respond with such abundant Grace?
Why does God delight in us asking their prayers?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello brother prodromos, some comments for your consideration below.

Still no response.

Still no response about what brother? I have responded and answered your posts section by section. What is it you claim I have not responded to?

I have seen people with inoperable cancer completely healed through the prayers of the Saints (the ones you consider to be dead). I have seen people with broken and crushed bones have their joints suddenly restored through the prayers of those same Saints. I've read the testimony of a young boy who grew up unable to walk because he was born with an incomplete spinal cord, who through the prayers of a Saint (another dead guy according to you) had his spinal chord completed and was able to immediately walk. I've read the testimony of a young child dying of cancer, who passed away while his mother and a nurse watched, only to be brought back to life moments later completely free of cancer, again through the prayers of another Saint. I've seen my own son healed from a serious injury after being annointed with myrrh which streams from the bones of another Saint.

And you think that these prayers to the dead were the reason these people were healed why?

If asking the prayers of the Saints, those righteous ones of God who have passed away, is such an abomination, why does God listen and respond with such abundant Grace? Why does God delight in us asking their prayers?

Brother who says it is God listening to dead saints? God's word does not teach we are to pray to the dead in fact it teaches the opposite. If signs and wonders were a test we would not be warned against them in the end days *2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-12; MATTHEW 24:24. The only sign of truth is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it.

I appreciate your thoughts brother. Although we may have to agree to disagree.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There is no scripture that specifically says that we cannot pray to Mary or the Saints.

Already answered brother, please see post # 228. Perhaps we may need to agree to disagree. Please feel free to provide the scriptures that say we can pray to the dead (Mary and the saints). You have already been provided scriptures showing we are not to pray to the dead in the linked post above. Please also feel free to respond to that post and the scriptures in them. Thanks for sharing though brother.

 

[prodromos]

Hello brother prodromos, some comments for your consideration below.
Still no response about what brother? I have responded and answered your posts section by section. What is it you claim I have not responded to?

And you think that these prayers to the dead were the reason these people were healed why?

Brother who says it is God listening to dead saints? God's word does not teach we are to pray to the dead in fact it teaches the opposite. If signs and wonders were a test we would not be warned against them in the end days *2 THESSALONIANS 2:3-12; MATTHEW 24:24. The only sign of truth is God's WORD and we should believe and follow it.

I appreciate your thoughts brother. Although we may have to agree to disagree.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

None so blind as those who refuse to open their eyes.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

None so blind as those who refuse to open their eyes.

Indeed, For me, he must increase and I must decrease. I only point all to the Word of God because it is there we find the one who loves us that we may love him. I know him and am known by him. All that he shows me I see and must show to all because I am blind. He tells me it is those that say they see that do not see. These are they that have once known him or do not know him. There is only life in the living Word. These are his Words and not my own. Freely I give because freely I have received. I must speak in the light and what I hear preach in the housetops. Many will not hear because they do not know Him. He is the Word of God and those that believe him are those that he has chosen. They follow him because they love him and are loved by him. Many are called but few are chosen. There is nothing hidden that shall not be revealed come judgment day.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So in summary to the first discussion points of the OP? To date there is no scriptures that tells us that we are to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints). Praying to the dead has it's origin from paganism not God's WORD.

What about the next discussion point? Mystery of iniquity, the Antichrist, Babylon the Great the mother of harlots, any thoughts?

 

[prodromos]

Praying to the dead has it's origin from paganism not God's WORD.

Only according to the same faulty methodology as used by Alexander Hislop.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Saint Alban - Wikipedia

St. Germanus of Auxerre visited Britain in circa 429 AD to refute the heresy of Pelagianism.

Soon afterwards (433 AD), Prosper of Aquitaine chronicled the visit:

Agricola, a Pelagian, the son of the Pelagian bishop Severianus, corrupted the British churches by the insinuation of his doctrine. But at the persuasion of the deacon Palladius, Pope Celestine sent Germanus, bishop of Auxerre, as his representative, and having rejected the heretics, directed the British to the catholic faith.​

A few decades after that (450-485 AD), Constatius of Lyons recorded, in his Vita Germani ('Life of Saint Germanus of Auxerre'), that Germanus with his fellow bishop Lupus, having stamped out the heresy of 'Pelagianism' in Britain, visited the tomb of Saint Alban:

When this damnable heresy had thus been stamped out, its authors refuted, and the minds of all re-established in the true faith, the bishops visited the shrine of the blessed martyr Alban, to give thanks to God through him​

The martyr Alban is also mentioned, one more time, in the context of Germanus's return journey, by sea:

Their own merits and the intercession of Alban the Martyr secured for them a calm voyage; and a good ship brought them back in peace to their expectant people​

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Saint Alban - Wikipedia

St. Germanus of Auxerre visited Britain in circa 429 AD to refute the heresy of Pelagianism.

Soon afterwards (433 AD), Prosper of Aquitaine chronicled the visit:

Agricola, a Pelagian, the son of the Pelagian bishop Severianus, corrupted the British churches by the insinuation of his doctrine. But at the persuasion of the deacon Palladius, Pope Celestine sent Germanus, bishop of Auxerre, as his representative, and having rejected the heretics, directed the British to the catholic faith.​

A few decades after that (450-485 AD), Constatius of Lyons recorded, in his Vita Germani ('Life of Saint Germanus of Auxerre'), that Germanus with his fellow bishop Lupus, having stamped out the heresy of 'Pelagianism' in Britain, visited the tomb of Saint Alban:

When this damnable heresy had thus been stamped out, its authors refuted, and the minds of all re-established in the true faith, the bishops visited the shrine of the blessed martyr Alban, to give thanks to God through him​

The martyr Alban is also mentioned, one more time, in the context of Germanus's return journey, by sea:

Their own merits and the intercession of Alban the Martyr secured for them a calm voyage; and a good ship brought them back in peace to their expectant people​

Hi Brother Erik, nice to see you here. I am not quite sure why you posted the above did you wish to exaplin why you posted the above post of yours? Thanks for sharing brother.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Hi Brother Erik, nice to see you here. I am not quite sure why you posted the above did you wish to exaplin why you posted the above post of yours? Thanks for sharing brother.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.

wouldn't that qualify as essentially praying through Saints and asking them to intercede on our behalf?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

wouldn't that qualify as essentially praying through Saints and asking them to intercede on our behalf?

Yes brother I think it would be an example of praying to the dead.

However, DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 says that we are not to try to communicate to the dead. The Hebrew words הַמֵּתִֽים ham·me·tim with דּרשׁ; dârash that make up necromancy mean to inquire or ask something of the dead. We have focused on the Hebrew word דּרשׁ; dârash emphesizing the inquiring or asking part of the scripture in application to prayers (asking and inquiring) to the dead (Mary and the saints).

I believe that in DEUTERONOMY 18:11-12 the Hebrew words for necromancer have application to prayers to the dead which can includes Mary and the saints because praying to the dead is seeking to have contact with the dead because it is the dead you are praying to and asking or inquiring which is the meaning of the Hebrew words.

Another words trying to contact the dead through prayer could be viewed as performing the duty of a necromancer because by praying to the dead your trying to communicate to the dead.

Looking at the Hebrew word meanings what is the difference between someone praying and trying to communicate to the dead and a necromancer when that is the role of a necromancer?

The scriptures are saying if someone is dead then we are not to try and communicate to them.

Praying to the dead goes against the scriptures in God's WORD. As shown above it is an abomination to God and also goes against these scriptures below from the NEW Testament...

JOHN 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

1 TIMOTHY 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

1 TIMOTHY 2:5-6
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

MATTHEW 6:9-13 Pray then like this: “Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

ACTS 4:12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

ECCLESIASTIES 9:5-6 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

On top of these scriptures brother did you know that praying to the dead has its origin from the pagan cultures of the world?

Finally where in God's WORD are we told to pray to the dead (Mary and the saints)?

Thanks for sharing brother Erik.

May God bless you as you seek him through his Word.