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Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by PanDeVida, Aug 7, 2017.

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  1. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Then you have to deny the OT regarding the monarchical structure of the kingdom. 1 Kings 15:13.
    She was reverenced and honoured uniquely by the King, she interceded to the King on behalf of his subjects, and the King honours her requests, and she had a role to play in worship, not as a priest, but definitely a role.
    Why do Catholics call Mother Mary "Queen of Heaven and Earth"?
    It's not there, but you are assuming Mary is too stupid to know when they run out of wine.
    You read it with biased lenses. The Wedding of Cana foreshadows John 6 and the Eucharistic feast in Revelation.
     
  2. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Well-Known Member

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    The title of "Queen" is just a dishonor bestowed on her in later centuries. Again, no biblical foundation. It's something completely made up by a certain group of people long after her death.

    Did you read what I wrote? I said clearly the scriptures tell us that "when they ran out of wine", she went to Jesus. And at that time, she tells Him they were out of wine.

    And yes, it isn't there. That's the point. It only exists in Imaginationland.

    I'm biased because I'm not reading into it something that is neither overtly present nor implied? Maybe you should look up the definition of that word.
     
  3. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. -Mark Twain
     
  4. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    So.....
     
  5. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just being funny... you still awake. I wont make it another hour. Just came back from babysitting, while adults were moving.

    Hey... lets go back to the three verses I listed. Never mind, that would be off topic.

    Forgive me...
     
  6. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Yes, still awake. :) Which 3 verses? Perhaps we could address them in another thread.

    I hope you've had a good evening.
     
  7. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    As for the topic itself all I have is "all generations shall call me blessed". The rest is liturgics. Extrabiblical.

    Forgive me..
     
  8. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The three i said included a fall from salvation.

    You said "context" but we never went there.

    Forgive me...
     
  9. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Right, well. I will go read them in context, and I will get back to you.
     
  10. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    So much for brevity.

    Can you please point me to the specific paragraphs of the Council of Orange that teach (3)? I am willing to change my opinion on that if I am in error.

    None of what you wrote above is responsive to my argument. All of the Scriptures you cited have been debated and discussed numerous times on this forum, and elsewhere on the internet.

    You agree that the word of God is necessary for salvation, at least insofar as it contains the teachings that men need in order know how to be saved. But what you and I need to know, is which writings are Scripture, and which writings are not Scripture. You need to know that Genesis is Scripture, and that the Book of Mormon is not Scripture, so that you worship the God of Abraham rather than some random person who lives on the planet Kolob. But this information, that is, which writings are Scripture and which are not, is not contained in the Bible itself. God may have revealed that information to the Apostles, but neither of us is an Apostle, and the Apostles never left us a list of which writings are Scripture, and which writings are not Scripture. The fact of the matter is that the New Testament Canon was not closed until the 4th Century, and before that time there was debate and disagreement within the Christian Church as to what books were Scripture, and which books were not Scripture. That is just factual history and no reputable historian will hold otherwise.

    Why is it that Catholics accept the Deuterocanonical books, and you reject them? Because they are Scripture according to our tradition, and they are not Scripture according to your tradition. But Scripture itself does not say anywhere "Hebrews is Scripture and 2 Maccabees is not Scripture". You get your canon of Scripture from outside of the Bible, according to your own tradition, and the information as to which books are Scripture and which books are not Scripture is a critical component to your faith. Therefore something that you need to know is not found in Scripture itself, and your definition of Sola Scripture is refuted.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2017
  11. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Looking through my bible for an index in the codex.:sorry:

    Forgive me...
     
  12. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    Interesting. :)
     
  13. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

    Sola Scriptura is the position that you can trust Scripture and Scripture alone as your sole authority for your faith and life. That the revelation known as the Bible can be trusted as your final word of authority for knowing God, salvation, true love, right living, and truth. Now, while there may be other books, letters, or epistles mentioned in Scripture that we don't have currently, they are not a part of the cannon of God's Word today, for there is no other written texts or revelations that is needed besides the Bible for all spiritual matters. For the Bible is unlike any other book in human history. It is clearly a book that is divine in origin that is backed up by many evidences in Science and History.

    Now, some might object and point out that you can't prove Sola Scriptura from Scripture because such a position wouldn't have existed until the close of Revelation because the apostles were still speaking and writing the Word of God. However, that is not Sola Scriptura, though. Sola Scriptura is putting your faith in the written Word of God and believing it is suffient for all matters concerning one's faith in God. But what about the spoken Word of God? Does that not conflict with Sola Scriptura? No. First, the spoken Word of God was confirmed by the written Word of God (Acts 17:11). Second, one truth (the Spoken Word of God) was not in conflict with another truth (i.e. the Written Word of God). They both breathed in harmony until one passed away. In other words, picture it in your mind that there are two branches or sticks. One branch represents the Spoken Word and the other branch represents the Written Word. Now imagine one of those branches starting to vanish away out of thin air until it is gone. Is the one branch that remains any different just because the other branch is gone? Yeah, but wouldn't Sola Scriptura only exist until after the close of Revelation with Revelation 22:18-19 because you can't add anymore words to God's Word? No. This is not an exclusive teaching within Scripture; For the Bible teaches elsewhere that we are not to add to the written Word of God, too (Deuteronomy 4:2) (Deuteronomy 12:32) (Proverbs 30:5-6).

    Anyways, the purpose of this study is to provide passages to help the reader in possessing Scripture so that they can trust in one divinely inspired written revelation or book (i.e. the Bible) for all spiritual matters in regards to having love, faith, and salvation in Him.

    Also, before we examine this study, it is important to note that there are 3 major Words spoken about within Scripture that are connected to one another. There is the:

    (1) Living Word of God (Jesus),
    (2) Spoken Word of God (Either from God or His people),
    (3) Written Word of God (Scripture).

    All three are perfect and will endure for forever.
    All three are tied together and are always connected.

    The Biblical Case for Sola Scriptura:

    I. All Scripture is Profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Righteous Teaching.

    2 Timothy 3:16-17
    "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

    A. All Scripture is profitable:

    (a) for doctrine, (because)
    ~ (1) Scripture is sufficient for eternal life (1 John 5:13).
    (b) for correction (and)
    (c) for instruction in righteousness,
    (It is sufficient in righteous training because):
    ~ (1) Scripture brings about hope (faith). (Romans 15:4).
    ~ (2) Scripture can be hid within one's heart so as not to sin against God. (Psalm 119:11)

    All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God:
    (d) May be perfect.
    (e) Completely furnished unto all good works.
    ~ (1) For speaking Scripture provides spiritual nutrition or life (Matthew 4:4)
    ~ (2) For Scripture brings about joy (1 John 1:4)
    (In fact, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy) (Galatians 5:22)
    All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect and complete unto all good works. For Scripture is profitable in (1) doctrine, (2) correction, and (3) training in righteousness. All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to be perfect and complete unto all good works. Not some good works. But all good works. No oral Words of God alone were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.

    For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?​

    II. Do Not Add or Take Away or Go Beyond What is Written:


    A. Do Not Add or Take Away From God's Word -

    Revelation 22:18-19
    "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

    Before you say it, yes, I am aware that Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking in context of the book of Revelation. However, we have to think about this logically, though. If you can't add any words to the book of Revelation, then you can't add any words to the Bible, too. Why? Well, the book of Revelation is the end of the Bible. It is the close of the whole book known as the Bible. It is the end. This is why I believe Revelation 22:18-19 is prophetic in the fact that it has a secondary fulfillment of speaking about "this book" in reference to "Revelation" in being a part of the book known as the Bible. How so? Well, there are several passages that have a double fulfillment to them. Here is one them:

    Hosea 11:1
    "When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

    First Fulfillment (That was in the Past):
    Reference to the exodus of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

    Secondary Fulfillment (That was in the Future):
    Reference to the Love of God calling his Son back to the comparative safety in Egypt so that he might die for his people. Matthew 2:15 - "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

    Also, in Revelation 2-3, Jesus gives His assessment of various churches. In these chapters, Jesus spoke of real churches that existed at the time when John written the book of Revelation, but also to the spiritual state of churches thru out time and today, too. For one of the churches is told to repent or they will go thru the tribulation. For obviously there has been Luke warm churches thru out history and today like the Laodician church.

    Besides, there are hundreds of double fulfillment passages in the Bible. How so? Well, the "Typifications of Christ" in the Old Testament are essentially double fulfillment type passages (See this forum thread here to check them out). In fact, Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39). In other words, the OT Scriptures are a double fulfilment. For the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of the events of it's time and they also spoke about Jesus Christ, too; For Jesus said so Himself.

    Also, consider the prophecy in the book of Daniel which was to seal up vision and prophecy versus the prophecy of the book of Revelation which is not sealed.

    ~ Daniel's End Times prophecy speaks of the events in Revelation. These prophecies of the End Times (that were in a book, i.e. scroll) were to be sealed up and closed (Daniel 12:4) because they were a far way off because Jesus still needed to come to save His people from their sins.

    Revelation 22:10 mentions the spirit of prophecy that the book is open.

    ~ Now, the book is open whereby the things within Revelation (That Daniel also talks about) is exposed so that it will be fulfilled in bringing in the End with Christ's return.

    For the entire book of Revelation is about the End Times leading up to Christ's return.

    For the end of Revelation closes with Jesus saying,

    "Surely I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20).

    This means that we should be looking to Jesus return and not some new Revelation.

    Paul said if we or an angel from heaven preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8). It is strange that both the Mormon and the Muslim religion are founded on a revelation that comes from angels. Yet the Bible warns against this very thing.

    In fact, Jesus Christ commanded that we as believers were to preach this gospel unto all the world (or all nations) until Christ's return.

    Matthew 24:14
    "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

    This is also what we see in Revelation. For this same gospel message was still going out to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people (That is still an ongoing process today).

    Revelation 14:6
    "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

    In other words, God knew that the book of Revelation was going to be a part of the Bible. For surely God does not want us accepting new revelations or additional written works to add to the Bible like with the book of Mormon, the Koran, the added oral traditions of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church), and or the added writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. For it is not a coincidence that this warning in Revelation 22 is at the close of our Bibles. In other words, the new reader (Who is unaware that the Bible is made up of 66 books) would understand that you are not to add or subtract from the book (i.e. the Bible) that they were reading. For God obviously intended Scripture to be compiled into one book known as the Bible. For Christians today do regard the Bible as one book, for it is published as one book and it is not generally published into 66 individual books or a 66 book volume set. There are no 66 individual old manuscripts in their original form anymore; And God does not exist in the past abiding with these old manuscripts. These manuscripts are dead and gone. For they were written in a language that is dead. All these things are in the past. However, our God is not a God who just exists in the past. Our God is present and ever active with His people today. For our God is not the God of the dead but of the living. He works with His people who are alive with the written Revelation known as the Bible. Adding any new words to that revelation would be adding to God's Holy written Word as it currently exists with His people who live today.

    B. Warning Against Altering God's Word is Confirmed in Old Testament:

    Forbidding in altering God's Word in Revelation 22:18-19 can also be seen in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32 which says not to add or take away from the words of God's commands. This was the written Word. The Law. God did not want His words being changed or altered in any way by adding or taking away from His words. In fact, if somebody were to try and destroy God's Word, we see that God would protect or preserve His Word. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 36:22-32where king Jehoiakim burns the scroll in a fire (i.e. to eliminate God's Word) and then later God has Jeremiah re-create another roll that says the same thing. In other words, the written Word could not be destroyed by fire, just as the Living Word cannot be destroyed by fire. For the fourth who was in the fiery furnace with Daniel's friends was the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). For even when Moses had broken or shattered the tablets of stone that had the direct hand written Word of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments) on it (Exodus 32:19), the Lord our God had hand written them down on tablets of stone again (Exodus 34:1). For the Word of God cannot be broken (John 10:35). For Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."(Matthew 24:35). Meaning, that Christ's words would be memorialized by being written down where they would not pass away (or be deleted by men).

    C. Do Not Go Above What is Written on how we think about men:

    The Bible says we are not to go above that which is written (concerning our thoughts of men). Granted, this verse is not all inclusive to the fact that we are not to go above Scripture on other matters, but what this passage does is show us a pattern that Scripture and Scripture alone is our sole authority on the faith and spiritual matters. It confirms that we are not to add or take away from God's Word.

    1 Corinthians 4:6
    "And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."


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  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    III. Scripture Can Help us to Know the Certainty of Christ's Teachings.

    Luke sets out an order of declaration amongst the ministers of the Word to write out the events in order to Theophilus so that he might know for certain of the truth (on Christ's teachings) which he had been instructed.

    Luke 1:1-4
    "Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

    IV. Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:

    In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17;Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the amor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, 16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).

    V. Spoken Word is confirmed by the Written Word. Acts 17:11

    In Acts 17:11, we learn that the Bereans were more noble because they received the "Spoken Word of God" from Paul and Silas with an open mind but yet they searched the Scriptures (i.e. the Written Word of God) to see whether those things were so or not. So the "Spoken Word" is confirmed by the "Written Word." So the "Written Word" is a reliable authority that we can trust. For even Philip opened the heart of the Ethiopian's understanding from a reading in Isaiah (Thereby confirming the Written Word of God) (Acts 8:26-35). Jesus had opened the disciple's understanding on the Scriptures when He was with them (Luke 24:32); And Paul had told the Corinthians that their words that they speak in Christ (i.e. the Spoken Word of God) were not like as with many others who had corrupted the Word of God (i.e. the Written Word of God) (2 Corinthians 2:17).

    VI. 1 Corinthians 14:37 - What Paul had written is the Lord's commandments.

    Paul had written to the Corinthians about how if anyone thought of themselves as spiritual or a prophet, they were to know that what he had written unto them was the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In other words, the "Written of God" that came from Paul was the Lord's Commandments; And by the authority of the Lord: Paul gave commands to the brethren in doing many things (1 Corinthians 7:10) (2 Thessalonians 3:4, 6, 12) (1 Timothy 4:11) (1 Timothy 6:11, 12, 13, 14).

    VII. The spoken/written Word is standard by which Jesus will Judge All Men.

    John 12:48 essentially says, Christ will judge us by His Word in the last day.
    Christ's spoken words have been memorialized within the Holy Scriptures for us to have faith in them. His words within the Bible will judge us in the last day.

    In fact, the unsaved dead will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment in this life by what is written in various books of Judgment (Revelation 20:12). This shows us that the written Word of God has power and authority to judge just as the books of Judgment have power and authority to judge a person's actions on the last day.

    For all believers will be judged by the Law of Liberty (James 2:12). This is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the royal Law of love under the New Testament (James 2:8) (Romans 13:8-10).

    VIII. John's Gospel is sufficient alone for saving faith in Jesus Christ.

    What is purpose of John's book or gospel?

    John 20:30-31 says,
    "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

    Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God.


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  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Yes, the above is my written work or study (just in case anyone was wondering).


    ...
     
  16. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Well I can see that there is another person in this thread who has a penchant for brevity.
     
  17. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    I for one appreciate such thoroughness.

    Those who labor in doctrine are actually worthy of double honor not dishonor.
     
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  18. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    You read all of that?
     
  19. Fireinfolding

    Fireinfolding ....

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    Yes, I have known Jason for awhile from his posting on other forums, I appreciate his thoroughness
     
  20. Lulav

    Lulav Older than ZIP Codes Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador CF Staff Trainer Supporter Staff on LOA

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    Closed until further notice.jpg
     
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