Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

[-V-]

I don't think so. The Apostle wrote,
"What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, do; and the God of peace will be with you."

So then we have to ask, are there any practices that he kept ("seen in me") that wasn't written down? Did the Apostle Paul pray the hours? We know other apostles did for certain (Acts 3). Jesus did as well (already mentioned earlier). Was Paul's instruction limited to himself or would the example of Christ, Peter and John also need to be emulated?

Did any of them say "such-and-such Psalm is to be prayed at such-and-such hour"?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

If it doesn't give an order of service, then how do you know what "pieces" are supposed to be in there? And if any Psalm is sufficient, as you just agreed to, then saying only a specific few Psalms are for the morning is false.

Because the ancient Churches that still exist today still use them.

Forgive me..

 

[-V-]

Because the ancient Churches that still exist today still use them.

And the Biblical evidence that those pieces were part of the original order of service is ... ?

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

V,
Let's suppose for a minute that one of the ancient Christian communities still exists today.
Would we expect that community to know nothing else except what is in the NT scripture?

Forgive me...

 

[Phil 1:21]

No it's not. The point was the scriptures themselves do not give us the order of worship for any Christian service... yet all the pieces are there.

Forgive me...

Let me ask you an honest question, and I don't mean this in an argumentative way. Was Jesus' ministry about teaching liturgies and ceremonies, or was it about spreading the Good News? I understand that people are edified in different ways, so I'm not trying to make a case that one type of service is universally right or wrong. I'm just curious as to why someone with deep scriptural knowledge would place such a high value on ceremony and liturgy. Thanks.

 

[-V-]

V,
Let's suppose for a minute that one of the ancient Christian communities still exists today.
Would we expect that community to know nothing else except what is in the NT scripture?

"Knowing" something is one thing. Demonstrating that it's actually authoritative is another.

It's funny, Luke praises the Bereans for checking what they were taught against Scripture (Acts 17:11). Yet, when Protestants suggest the same thing, Roman Catholics and Orthodoxes insist that is a bad idea and we need more than that. Luke says it's good ... you insist it's insufficient. I think Luke carries more weight on what's good or not good for a believer to do.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Let me ask you an honest question, and I don't mean this in an argumentative way. Was Jesus' ministry about teaching liturgies and ceremonies, or was it about spreading the Good News?

Great question!

Both. The services themselves required attendance. Christ taught the services to Peter, James and John. The purpose of the service is to gather the people, so that they know each other and can care for one another.

How else would we "do this in remembrance (anamnesis) of me"?

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"Knowing" something is one thing. Demonstrating that it's actually authoritative is another.

It's funny, Luke praises the Bereans for checking what they were taught against Scripture (Acts 17:11). Yet, when Protestants suggest the same thing, Roman Catholics and Orthodoxes insist that is a bad idea and we need more than that. Luke says it's good ... you insist it's insufficient. I think Luke carries more weight on what's good or not good for a believer to do.

No, it is a good idea. Does your bible contain the "Wisdom of Solomon"? You did not answer my question.

Forgive me...

 

[Phil 1:21]

How else would we "do this in remembrance (anamnesis) of me"?

Excellent point, but judging by Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, the Lord's supper was practiced very differently back than as opposed to today. It appears as though it was more of what we'd call a potluck than a sip of wine and a tiny host. Granted, Paul rebukes them for their conduct, but his issue is with not sharing and drunkenness as opposed to the overall ceremony.

 

[-V-]

No, it is a good idea.

Yeah, apparently it's a "good idea" until we find something you guys are doing that isn't Scriptural, and then the "good idea" gets pushed aside and "tradition" becomes the better idea.

You did not answer my question.

What I expect is that if they claim, "this is what a Christian should be doing," that they can actually establish it as authoritative beyond their mere say-so.

 

[FenderTL5]

"Knowing" something is one thing. Demonstrating that it's actually authoritative is another.

It's funny, Luke praises the Bereans for checking what they were taught against Scripture (Acts 17:11). Yet, when Protestants suggest the same thing, Roman Catholics and Orthodoxes insist that is a bad idea and we need more than that. Luke says it's good ... you insist it's insufficient. I think Luke carries more weight on what's good or not good for a believer to do.

What I find equally funny is that protestants like to point out the Berean example and yet do not use the LXX that would've been the scriptures being searched in northern Greece during the era of the Acts of the Apostles.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Excellent point, but judging by Paul's first letter to the Corinthians, the Lord's supper was practiced very differently back than as opposed to today. It appears as though it was more of what we'd call a potluck than a sip of wine and a tiny host. Granted, Paul rebukes them for their conduct, but his issue is with not sharing and drunkenness as opposed to the overall ceremony.

Very much like a potluck.. they prayed and took part in the Eucharist and then ate together. Very common Jewish practice.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

What I find equally funny is that protestants like to point out the Berean example and yet do not use the LXX that would've been the scriptures being searched in northern Greece during the era of the Acts of the Apostles.

Thus the Wisdom of Solomon question.

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Yeah, apparently it's a "good idea" until we find something you guys are doing that isn't Scriptural, and then the "good idea" gets pushed aside and "tradition" becomes the better idea.


What I expect is that if they claim, "this is what a Christian should be doing," that they can actually establish it as authoritative beyond their mere say-so.

Would you agree that every Church we as westerners attend we take our bibles and try to make sure that everything lines up because we are looking for The Church?

Forgive me...

 

[Phil 1:21]

Very much like a potluck.. they prayed and took part in the Eucharist and then ate together. Very common Jewish practice.

Forgive me...

Thanks. How does the EO practice of communion differ from this? And if it does differ, why?

 

[FenderTL5]

..they prayed and took part in the Eucharist and then ate together...

Hey, come to think of it, our parish does that every time we meet for Liturgy.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Thanks. How does the EO practice of communion differ from this? And if it does differ, why?

You mean from the earliest days? For one, the services are much shorter. (often called Superbowl friendly)

In those days the entire story of Christ's life was told in great detail in a single service. VERY LONG.

This was broken up in the 500's so that parts were told in the same way on the same date by every Christian Church... thus the Church calendar was born.

There are some other small differences. May I suggest a book? Dom Gregory Dix, an Anglican, put together a wonderful study called the "Shape of the Liturgy".

Forgive me...

 

[FenderTL5]

Thanks. How does the EO practice of communion differ from this? And if it does differ, why?

Our parish has 'coffee hour' immediately after Liturgy. It is treated much like a 'potluck' with differing families hosting it week to week. The 'menu' varies depending on time of year and who is hosting. I attend a Greek church but my family is Scots-Irish. We team up with another family (or two) when we host and we tend to make the menu 'Irish'. Because of this, we have been scheduled on or near Saint Patrick's Day (and my name day is the following day).

 

[-V-]

What I find equally funny is that protestants like to point out the Berean example and yet do not use the LXX that would've been the scriptures being searched in northern Greece during the era of the Acts of the Apostles.

Yeah, cuz God would have no idea what Scripture would exist in the future, so He certainly couldn't have inspired such a statement that would include those future Scriptures.

 

[-V-]

Would you agree that every Church we as westerners attend we take our bibles and try to make sure that everything lines up because we are looking for The Church?

No. I wouldn't agree. I'd say we should be looking for God.