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Praying to Mary - A Biblical Defense

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by PanDeVida, Aug 7, 2017.

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  1. Instrument150

    Instrument150 Active Member

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    Thank you, that is useful
     
  2. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    All you said was something to the effect of, "finally, the word of God!"

    You addressed none of it.

    But, that's your choice.
     
  3. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    No. I "see" a story that illustrates how Christians are to treat one another and their "neighbour."
     
  4. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I get that. So... you see, everyone who reads scriptures do not come away with the same thing.

    Forgive me...
     
  5. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    For example:

    St John Chrysostom helps us see through this text God’s constant and all-embracing love for us.
    This parable becomes a word-picture of the entire mystery of salvation:

    A man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho
    – Adam, by trusting in himself instead of God, descended from Paradise into this world. Jericho, at 825 feet below sea level is the lowest city on earth, as far down as you can get.

    He fell among robbers
    – Mankind apart from God is beset by the band of demonic powers led by the ruler of this age.

    They stripped him of his raiment
    – the robe of immortality.

    They departed, leaving him half dead
    – he was reduced to the half-life of this earth, subject to sin and death.

    It happened that a priest …and a Levite came that way, but passed by on the other side
    – The people of Israel kept to themselves and did not aid mankind.

    But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him, and went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on oil and wine
    – Christ, not from this world, who was accused of being a Samaritan (John 8:48), is that compassionate stranger. He doctors mankind by His teachings (the bandages), His anointing with the Holy Spirit (the oil), and the Eucharist (the wine) by which He begins our healing.

    He set him on his own beast, brought him to an inn and took care of him
    – Christ joined mankind to His own human nature, brought him to the hospital of His Church and continued to minister to him as the divine physician.

    When he left on the next day he gave the innkeeper two dinars and said, ‘Take care of him’
    – After His ascension Christ entrusted mankind to the Apostolic Synod personified by its great apostle to the Gentiles, St Paul, and “through Paul to the high priests and teachers and ministers of each church,” saying: “Take care of the Gentiles whom I have given to you in the Church. Since men are sick, wounded by sin, heal them, putting on them a stone plaster, that is, the prophetic sayings and the gospel teachings, making them whole through the admonitions and exhortations of the Old and New Testaments.”

    ‘And when I come again I will repay you’ – At my second coming I will reward you


    Forgive me...
     
  6. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    No, I also asserted that they do not state anywhere that we are forbidden from making any communication with those who have left the Earth. And that is the truth.

    You seem to operate under the assumption that those verses contradict Catholic faith and practice, and that therefore we must prove to you why they do not. But I reject your assumption. They do not contradict Catholic faith or practice, and you have not demonstrated otherwise.
     
  7. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God. - Leviticus 19:31

    6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people. - Leviticus 20:6


    9 When thou art come into the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.

    10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.

    11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

    12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee. - Deuteronomy 18:9-10

    19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? - Isaiah 8:19


    Refer to the Scripture above. I am not giving my "interpretation."
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    How do you come to this conclusion?

    Here's the text:

    Matthew 12: NABRE

    46 While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. 47 [Someone told him, “Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you."] 48 But he said in reply to the one who told him, “Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?” 49 And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

    How is Jesus using His family members as 'models of faith because they did the will of God?"

    We have evidence to the contrary:

    John 7: NABRE

    1 After this, Jesus moved about within Galilee; but he did not wish to travel in Judea, because the Jews were trying to kill him. 2 But the Jewish feast of Tabernacles was near. 3 So his brothers said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing. 4 No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world.” 5 For his brothers did not believe in him. 6 So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you. 7 The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil. 8 You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled.” 9 After he had said this, he stayed on in Galilee.
     
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  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Theology by silence?
     
  10. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. Context is so important. Citing Job 5:1 as defense of praying to saints would be like the following:

    A friend of mine wants to put a new roof on his shed, but doesn't have a hammer or any roofing nails. So I say, "What are you going to do, glue the shingles down? You'd better go to the store and get some nails and a hammer." Someone else overhears the conversation and reports, "JayW said, 'glue the shingles down.'"

    Is that technically correct? Yes. But taken out of context the snippet means the exact opposite of what was said in the conversation. And that's exactly what we're dealing with here.

    Someone wanted to point to Job 5:1 while ignoring the preceding verses where Job laments that God is ignoring him, the fact that it's Job's friend making the statement in 5:1 in response to that lamentation, and the following verses where the same person states to pray to God alone and lays out a case for doing so. And when the context is presented what do we hear? "I reject your interpretation."

    No, you don't reject my interpretation. You reject the rest of the scripture where the verse you quoted is explained to not mean what you want it to mean. In clinical research we call this confirmation bias -- only accepting data that confirms one's bias while ignoring data that refutes it. It's not a case of interpretation; it's a case of willfully ignoring context.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Can you point me to the early church fathers who actually prayed to departed souls, or even taught such?
     
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  12. Phil 1:21

    Phil 1:21 Well-Known Member

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    Job 5:1-8 (NABRE, Catholic Bible)

    1 Call now! Will anyone respond to you?
    To which of the holy ones will you turn?
    2 Surely impatience kills the fool
    and indignation slays the simpleton.
    3 I have seen a fool spreading his roots,
    but I cursed his household suddenly:
    4 May his children be far from safety;
    may they be crushed at the gate without a rescuer.
    5 What they have reaped may the hungry eat up,
    or God take away by blight,
    or the thirsty swallow their substance.
    6 For not from dust does mischief come,
    nor from the soil does trouble sprout.
    7 Human beings beget mischief
    as sparks fly upward.
    8 In your place, I would appeal to God,
    and to God I would state my plea.


    This really speaks for itself. No interpretation needed.
     
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  13. amariselle

    amariselle Jesus Never Fails

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    It's a parable and needs to be understood in context.
     
  14. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Gregory the Great circa 595ad
    "whatever it is fitting the blessed should know about what happens
    to us, even as regards the interior movements of the heart, is made
    known to them in the Word: and it is most becoming to their exalted
    position that they should know the petitions we make to them by word or
    thought; and consequently the petitions which we raise to them are
    known to them through Divine manifestation."

    Forgive me...
     
  15. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes sir forgive me also, but 595 AD is not 'early.'

    Now before we continue, remember we both believe that once one who is in Christ is departed from this body is present with the Lord. (1 Corinthians chapter 4 through chapter 5)
     
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  16. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He did refer to it as being ancient.

    Forgive me...
     
  17. frettr00

    frettr00 Finding peace where I am

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    I don't know about a biblical defense, but I've had an experience with the Holy Spirit as a result of praying the rosary so I know it's ok. Once God confirms something to you like that you can easily dismiss any arguments against it.
     
  18. kepha31

    kepha31 Regular Member

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    Instead of asserting the usual anti-Catholic falsehoods, why don't you post prayers to mother goddess of fertility for an objective comparison.
    There are 4 questions in this site, try to answer them honestly:
    Is Catholicism Pagan? | Catholic Answers
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2017
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    As @amariselle points out the parable has a context to the discussion at hand. Jesus was asked 'who is my neighbor.'

    Your allusions to objects as institutions is the very definition of eisegesis. Which I believe is the cause for so much confusion and miscommunication in these threads with Catholics and Orthodox. Many of the traditions cited from Scriptures are determined by a doctrinal development which reaches back to a portion of Scriptures for support. This is the very definition of eisegesis and why these conversations go nowhere very fast.

    When properly looking at the text at hand, we must consider first the very plain words and then the context knowing that our God is not a God of confusion and will not contradict His words.

    For reference purposes for those not exposed to the definitions of exegesis and eisegesis I offer a "101" definitions:

    Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

    Eisegesis is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.


    Second Timothy 2:15 commands us to use exegetical methods: “Present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” An honest student of the Bible will be an exegete, allowing the text to speak for itself. Eisegesis easily lends itself to error, as the would-be interpreter attempts to align the text with his own preconceived notions. Exegesis allows us to agree with the Bible; eisegesis seeks to force the Bible to agree with us.

    More at link below with two very good examples:

    What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?
     
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  20. OrthodoxyUSA

    OrthodoxyUSA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I take it then that the Church of Rome does not explain the Good Samaritan in the same way. I reached all the way back to St. John Chrysostom. Did the Roman Church drop the ball there?

    Forgive me..
     
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