• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Praying and prayer of Jabez Part 2

Discussion in 'Non-denominational' started by Andrew, Dec 17, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "No matter what it is, people somewhere, at sometime will abuse the information. "

    Yes, I agree thus in some instances the information is wrong to begin with, or has a good message that got twisted with he wrote the book. Message: God provides
    Twisting: God provides anything you ask of him.
     
  2. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,468
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    Woah... Outspoken, did we just agree? Amazing.

    Seriously, though, I mostly agree. I hate to say "twisting", because that implies intent, and I am not convinced that the author of the book is intending to mislead people, but...

    I'm still stuck on the "a prayer God always answers". That sounds like marketing. Either God always answers *all* prayers - but sometimes the answer is "No" - or God doesn't *always* answer this one, either. It *really* feels like superstition. What is it about these particular words that makes them magic? Words *shouldn't* be magic!
     
  3. SnuP

    SnuP A son of the Most High

    +9
    Non-Denom
    I hate the what would Jesus do bracelets.

    Why couldn't they come up with a "Jesus W. S. I D." bracelet. (Jesus What Should I Do). As it exist now, it leaves it up to us to deside what is the right action, a responce that is still from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. It shouldn't be left up to us to deside anything. We don't have the answers, God does. That is the main thing that is wrong with the prayer of Jabez book because it has become an excuse for so many to not seek for God's tailored answer for their problem. "Just pray this prayer". Well someone forgot to mention that God iniciated that prayer for Jabez. And God gave that revelation to this Wilkerson guy as an answer to his problem. The problem isn't the doctrine in the book, the problem is in, is this God's answer for you. If it isn't then find God's answer for you and forget about the book because God may be using it to help someone else. Stop asking yourself "what would Jesus do" and start asking Jesus what you should do.

    Jesus W. S. I D.
     
  4. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,468
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    Often, what Jesus would do isn't what I should do anyway. I'm married. I'd guess there are things I should do that Jesus wouldn't.

    A friend of mine, whom everyone calls jj, has a few friends with "WWJJD" bracelets. "What would jj do?".
     
  5. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,404
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    Huh? :scratch: Is there a little bit of sarcasism in that first paragraph?

    Again, I have not read the book so I don't know the take that the writer makes. However, Jesus is the one who said, "if you abide in Me and My words abide in you, ask whatever you will and it will be done".

    The qualifier is us abiding in Jesus and His word abiding in us. If we're running around doing our own thing then we are not abiding in Him nor is His Word abiding in us. If we are living in fear and anger then we are not abiding in Him, nor is His Word abiding in us. Etc, etc, etc.

    Abiding and faith work together. Not abiding and lack of faith go together. Whatever we are abiding in is where our mind will go.

    Scripture says that "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks". If His Word is abiding in us then we are speaking His Word.

    If we're abiding in Him and His Word is abiding in us it is near to impossible for us to ask (speak) outside of His will. The reason I see that God does not give us everything we ask is shown in James 4:3.

    James 4:3 (Amplified) "you do ask [God for them] and yet fail to receive, because you ask with wrong purpose and evil, selfish motives. Your intention is [when you get what you desire] to spend it in sensual pleasures.

    James 4:3 (NKJV) "you ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures".

    Quaffer
     
  6. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,468
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    No. For instance, I think it's pretty clear that God's plan for me involves fathering children, but I don't think Jesus would do that.
     
  7. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Whatever Paul had, he prayed for it to go away, and he fully expected for it to go away, because he walked by faith of what the word said to do. And when it didn't go away, he still walked by faith and did what the bible said to do, which was to ask and keep on asking, pray without ceasing.  God then told him that in this ONE instance He was made stronger through his weakness.  We don't know what that thorn was, and we don't know if God intended to keep it there for very long. It could be that He was going to keep it there for a month or two untill he was strong enough to handle the many revelations that God gave him.

    So your right to take every problem to God and expect every single time for Him to do something about them. If someone you knows dies, you would try to raise them from the dead, but if they have been dead for awhile, then you wouldn't even try.

    Thank you Lord that Andrew is walking by faith on what your word says to do, and doesn't look around at the circumstances of life trying to slow him down, nor does he listen to weak Christians who try to manipulate the bible to fit there experiences.
     
  8. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    The bottom line folks.

    We are to walk by faith and do what the bible says to do.

    Pray without ceasing isn't a vein statement, there are so many things to pray about.
    If you are seeing prayers answered consistantly then your on the right track.
    If your prayers are rarely getting answered then you are a weak Christian and there is something wrong with your walk. I would suggest you turn to the Lord and confess that you haven't been walking by faith and that you want the Lord to teach you His wisdom on why you don't see more of God in your life.

    Now there are checks and balances to what I just said, this message is for people who have been a Christian for five years or more.

    And one more thing, if you say that God answers every single prayer wether yes no or wait, you are not walking by faith, becuase Jesus said, ask and keep on asking. In James it also talked about Elijah and how he prayed EARNESTLY that it would not ran, and we know how that ended.
     
  9. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,404
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    Well said Sunstone,

    Throughout my Christian walk I have found myself before God confessing my lack of faith and my weakness. And God is gracious and merciful. Full of compassion. He was/is always there to give me the strength I need. I just have to call out.

    :angel:
     
  10. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Amen

    We are all weak compaired to Jesus, and everyone has room to grow in the Lord. This doesn't excuse any sin, we are over comers and we are more than just human, we are "wall to wall Holy Ghost!" -Andrew Wormack.

    The bible says in James "he who lacks wisdom, let him ask God", and we are always going to be learning so we should be doing alot of asking. God really loves this kind of humble attitude, and it is most definitly of His will for us to constantly grow in wisdom and strength.

    So work and fight, and don't decieve yourself in thinking things like "well if the Lord wants it done, He will just do it Himself". Because He has already done everything He is ever going to do, and has given us the ability to do all things throught Christ who shrengthens us.

    God has, or is(doesn't matter) doing His part, its time for us to do ours.
     
  11. SavedByGrace3

    SavedByGrace3 Whoever calls on the name of Jesus will be saved Supporter

    +1,252
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    US-Others
    Amen! And this means we can stand on His work. He has done it. We can take hold of it and allow it to carry us aloft into the glories of God! No more pleading, begging, hoping. Know it is done, and that He is Lord of it all.
     
  12. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "Pray without ceasing isn't a vein statement, there are so many things to pray about. "

    Problem...praying without ceasing doesn't = I'm always asking for something. The greatest thing God can do in response to prayer is change YOU(spiritually), not your surroundings.

    "If your prayers are rarely getting answered then you are a weak Christian and there is something wrong with your walk."

    that is flat, plain wrong. 1. God always answers prayers, he never "doesn't anser" them. 2. sometimes you get a no, accept it, move on 3. Just because you get a no doesn't mean there is anything wrong with your walk, that's the satan or your doubt trying to get to you.
     
  13. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,468
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    Total agreement! My bank account doesn't need eternal life, *I* do.

    I have to agree with this too. A "no" answer means "What you asked isn't consistent with God's plan".

    Now, to be fair, maybe that *is* something wrong with your walk - you're *asking for the wrong things*.

    If I pray for a Ferarri, and don't get one, it doesn't mean "if you grow spiritually and are closer to God, you can ask for a Ferarri again and get one" - it more likely means "if you grow spiritually and are closer to God, you'll ask for something more important than a Ferarri".

    God consistently answers my prayers. I don't ask for things and get them; I ask for help, and get help. Most of the time, the help surprises me. Sometimes it scares me. But... it *helps*.
     
  14. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    1.What is the definition of praying, or pray?

    2.In the book of James what should the sick do?

    3.If God answered Paul on after the 3rd time he prayed for the thorn,then what happened to the first two prayers that he requested for the same thing?

    4. What does the phrase "praying without ceasing" mean?

    5. When the disciples were unable to cast out the demon of the little boy, what did Jesus say to them?

    6. If God only changes you, then why did Elijah pray earnestly for it to stop raining?  
     
  15. SUNSTONE

    SUNSTONE Christian Warrior

    +206
    Non-Denom
    Look at my sig.
     
  16. Outspoken

    Outspoken Standing in the Gap

    +15
    Christian
    "1.What is the definition of praying, or pray?"

    Talking to God, not always verb, nor always inner dialouge.

    "2.In the book of James what should the sick do?"

    Pray and get anointed.


    "3.If God answered Paul on after the 3rd time he prayed for the thorn,then what happened to the first two prayers that he requested for the same thing?"

    God probably said wait or gave him the same answer.

    "4. What does the phrase "praying without ceasing" mean?"

    always be in fellowship with God.


    "5. When the disciples were unable to cast out the demon of the little boy, what did Jesus say to them?"

    I believe it was have more faith, though this doesn't prove your point at all, it shows one instance where faith was needed, that is not an all encompasing example anymore then saying Christ was an angry man all the time and citing the example in the temple.


    "6. If God only changes you, then why did Elijah pray earnestly for it to stop raining? "

    If you'll note he was in the will of God, thus God was changing him, to follow his will by praying for the correct things.

    God says no sometimes. to wealth, healing, any many other requests that are not in his will. Your question shouldn't be why didn't he say yes, it should be what SHOULD I be asking for instead of what he said no to.
     
  17. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    that's right Quaffie. This brings to my remembrance what my careleader's wife said the other day, when we were looking at all her tons of Christian books in her bkshelf:"You must know how to pick the meat out of the bones."

    that goes for the POJ bk, one can go to one extreme and condemn it totally, another can go the other extreme and use it as a formula to get things, or you could just try to get the nuggets of God's truths out of it. IOW, the mature Christian can read and not be stumped, and pick out the meat from the bones, and see what the Lord wants to teach him.

    ok Sunstone, I'll try one last time *L ...

    The expression "thorn in the flesh" is never used in the Bible to mean sickness. And every time the phrase is used in the Bible, it is specifically stated what the "thorn" is.

    Witness 1

    Before the Israelites entered the land of Canaan, Moses told them:

    * Numbers 33:55
    55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

    Here, the scripture itself tells us plainly that the "pricks in your eyes" and "thorns in your sides" of the Israelites were the inhabitants of Canaan, and not eye disease or sickness. Moses was warning them that the Canaanites, if allowed to remain, would be a constant annoyance to them.

    Witness 2

    Many years later, Joshua said the same thing about the Canaanites:

    * Joshua 23:13
    13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out any of these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

    Again, it is clearly stated here what the "thorns" were, and it was certainly not eye disease or sickness.

    Witness 3

    In the book of Judges, the Lord told the children of Israel the same thing:

    * Judges 2:3
    3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

    Here also, the "thorns" refer to people, not sickness.

    Witness 4

    Our fourth witness is David, who said:

    * 2 Samuel 23:6
    6 But the sons of Belial shall be all of them as thorns thrust away, because they cannot be taken with hands:

    In all four cases, the Bible makes it explicit what the "thorns" are, so there is no need for wild speculations. And in every case, the "thorns" refer to personalities, not sicknesses. I told this to a friend and he said: "Well, there's a diff betw the Hebrew and Greek expressions." I said: "You think Paul didnt know Hebrew?"

    Usage today

    Today, we still use the same expression. According to The Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English (New Edition), when we say that someone is "a thorn in one's flesh/side", we are saying that that person is "a continual cause of annoyance or problems". Similar expressions are "pain in the neck" and "pain in the ***".

    Paul's case is no different

    As with the first four cases presented, the apostle himself tells us plainly what the "thorn in the flesh" was -- "the messenger of Satan":

    * 2 Corinthians 12:7
    7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

    The original Greek word for "messenger" here is "angelos". According to Strong's Concordance, it means "a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God".

    In Paul's case, it was an angel of Satan. So, Paul's thorn was a demonic spirit sent by Satan to torment and annoy him. Or, a person or persons carrying that demonic spirit. It was certainly not eye disease, migraine or some sickness as many have wildly speculated.

    This Greek word "angelos" appears 186 times in the Bible, and is translated "angel" 179 times and "messenger" the other seven times. In all 186 cases, without exception, it refers to a person and not a thing or disease.

    It is also interesting to note that the Rotherham and Weymouth translations use the pronoun "he" to refer to Paul's "thorn" or "the messenger of Satan". In other words, they tell us that Paul's thorn was a satanic personality and not a disease.

    Nature of Paul's thorn

    Paul not only tells us that his "thorn" was an angel of Satan, but he also tells us what that demon came to do: "to buffet me".

    The word "buffet" means "to strike repeatedly" or "blow after blow". If Paul's thorn was sickness, then it would mean that Paul was continuously sick. But we don't see a sickly Paul in the Bible. And how could the apostle travel great distances, preaching boldly and healing the sick if he was so sickly? The sick would have laughed at him for preaching about God's healing power!

    What we do find, however, is a Paul who was frequently persecuted by people, not sicknesses. Paul enumerates his sufferings or "buffetings" in 2 Corinthians 11:23-29 and 2 Timothy 3:10-12. Not one time does he mention sickness. (See Sufferings we can expect.)

    Did God say "no" to Paul?

    * 2 Corinthians 12:8-10
    8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
    9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
    10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

    Many Christians think that God's reply to Paul's thrice repeated prayer to be rid of the satanic messenger was, "Nope, I want you to stay sick."

    Our Lord never said that, only the traditions of man! And we have already established that Paul's thorn was an angel of Satan and not some illness.

    Essentially, God's reply to Paul is that He fights for Paul best when Paul is totally helpless, weak and dependent on Him. This is God's grace in action -- God doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves.

    All self-efforts to fight the enemy must be put aside if God is to have full control over the situation. God works best without our interference and our efforts to "help" Him.

    And when we see the victory, we will know that it is all by God's grace. That is why God told Paul that His grace was all that Paul needed to overcome the constant attacks of the messenger of Satan.

    When Paul realised that this was God's way of doing things -- by grace --, it is no wonder he said that he would gladly "glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me" and that "when I am weak, then am I strong [in and through Christ]".

    So, did God answer Paul's prayer and show Him the solution? Yes! Certainly, God did not give Paul a negative answer and leave him weak and defeated. After all, how can it be true that Christ's strength was made perfect in Paul's weakness (verse 9) if he was left weak. No, I believe Paul was an actual partaker of Christ's strength, which would remove the weakness, whether it was physical or spiritual.
     
  18. DaveKerwin

    DaveKerwin Represent the Most High

    +125
    Christian
    Married
    health and wealth hijack?

    Is anyone talking about the prayer of jabez book?
    Did you know there is a 365 day tear off calender for jabez? What an allstar!
     
  19. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

    +1,468
    Seeker
    Married
    US-Republican
    I realize now that we've misunderstood; of *course* the Prayer of Jabez makes you wealthy. It makes you wealthy when you sell books and calendars and stuff.

    I'm not arguing, at the moment, whether or not God rewards people; I'm just arguing that the books and calendars and stuff about this one particular prayer are pure superstition, taking a set of words and treating them as magic. You will get the same results with "God, help me." He knows what you need.
     
  20. SpiritPsalmist

    SpiritPsalmist Heavy lean toward Messianic Supporter

    +1,404
    United States
    Charismatic
    Single
    Dave,

    Would you have a problem with it if they were giving them out for free?

    What about your favorite football, basketball, baseball, hockey, etc. teams?  Do you have a problem with them making money off of calenders?  What about the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts? 

    How about the Salvation army?  Do you have a problem with the thrift shops where they sell items so they can feed and house the poor?

    What about all the church youth groups that have all kinda ways they make money to get things they need?  Does your church do any fund raising?  Are you against that?

    If God provides a means of someone  making a living, unless it's illigeal or immoral what difference does it make how they do it?  People are not forced to purchase any of these items.  And if they do, it's because they enjoy it.  What's wrong with that?

    Do you believe it's a problem with God?  Do you think He has an issue with these people and is unable to get any sense into their heads?

    Why does it matter to youu Dave, why?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...