• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.

Prayers to the dead - not in the Bible

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BobRyan, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

    +1,378
    Catholic
    Single
    You are aware that all of the first christian denominations, to even Judaism, believe that the people in heaven can still pray for/with the people on earth. John 3:16 says that who so ever believes in him shall not perish but everlasting life. You as a christian should not deny that the physical death/1st death is not the end of a christians life, because of Jesus he/she will still be alive - in spirit.
     
  2. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Acts 2:29 KJB - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    Acts 2:34 KJB - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,​
     
  3. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Who told you that?

    Job 1:6 KJB - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Job 2:1 KJB - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.​

    And also:

    Job 38:7 KJB - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?​
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  4. jaybird88

    jaybird88 Active Member

    400
    +113
    Christian
    Single
    i thought there were scriptures to support prayer for the dead but the scriptures were removed to support new theology.
     
  5. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Future tense, not yet:

    1 Corinthians 15:23 KJB - But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
     
  6. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

    +1,378
    Catholic
    Single
    I think "no time" means no beginning nor end
     
  7. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Murican Supporter

    +2,045
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    US-Others
    -How can David speak if he is dead? Therefore we must assume he is in sheol
    -The Bible often uses human language to convey a message. Do you actually think there is a sun and moon in heaven, and that time passes as it does for us? No. Heaven is the realm of God and God in infinite. Not only that but humans are describing the events, so yes there was an Earth day that the Sons of God were in Heaven.

    By the way the Sons of God are nephalim, who lived on Earth, also proving my point.

    - The words "and shall be made alive", point to the fact that all who believe are resurrected, this does not specify a specific time, whether immediate or in the future.


    Do you honestly think that in 1700 years of Christians believing my viewpoint people didn't look for verses to back up these opinions I and the Apostolic churches have? Church councils debated these issues again and again, and in the RCC they go to even further lengths to find evidence for their beliefs.

    These views didn't just drop out of the sky, they are the oral tradition talked about in 2 Thessalonians, part of the tradition we are meant to keep. But please, continue on if you think 2000 years of church fathers, monks, hierarchs, theologians, priests, desert fathers, apostles, and martyrs were wrong.
     
  8. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Murican Supporter

    +2,045
    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    Single
    US-Others
    LUKE 23:43 'And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”'

    All of Christian life is centered around communion with God
    It begins when you
    "confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

    But confessing Jesus as Lord is much more than a verbal agreement, it is a taking on of the Lord's commandments. Christ gave many commandments, the beatitudes, to love thy neighbor, to go and be perfect, and to
    “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of Me.”

    One must obey the Lord to confess him as such. For:
    "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

    But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

    Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

    For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

    Therefore as Christians we must continually grow to become Christlike in nature, so that when we die we may maintain and continue to grow in communion with God. Orthodox call this "Theosis". Though we cannot achieve the God "essence" (to be infinite, all powerful, omnipotent, and omniscient), we can achieve the nature of God, which is to be in unison with his will (Christ like). This is why we are able to perform wonders when we obey God, and are in unison with the life giving trinity.

    Therefore when we die it is horrifying to think that we would be separated from communion with God even for a moment. That is what awaits those without faith, and it will be worse then the spiritual fire that burns them for eternity. To be completely ripped away from communing with whom you were created to be part of. When we die we MUST go strait to heaven, to say otherwise is to deny the promise of Christ in salvation. While our Journey towards Christ likeness may not necessarily end after death, we know that we must be separated from those not communing with God. This is shown by the fact that

    “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

    The Gospels also say that into God's hands Jesus gave his spirit upon death. Therefore we must assume that part of Christ's nature went up to God. We must also assume that since the hypo static union of Christ is inseparable, that Christ was in both heaven and sheol at the same time. That means God was temporarily both within his own nature, and also in the holding place for those out of communion with him (before the crucifixion).

    This divide is described in the parable of lazarus:

    There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
    And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
    And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
    And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
    And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
    For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

    Now why would Christ describe a fictional reality about the nature of the post death? Though the characters are probably fictional, the reality of the scenario is true. Lazarus is resurrected, the rich man is not. But his brothers still live. This means that there are people both within heaven, and living on Earth, and the latter can still achieve salvation.

    Therefore upon death the Christian is immediately resurrected, and sits in communion with God part of which is praying for those still infantile in their communion. This is why we can ask a saint to pray for us, and since their soul is now in that timeless spiritual plane known as heaven, they will be able to- and since they are in perfect unison with God, then they will also be able to use his power to aid us as well. This is the reality of the unity of the Church, both in this life and the next. :)

    [​IMG]
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Will you believe scripture or not?

    Here is a textual documentation after a similar fashion:

    For more on Angels, Heavenly unfallen beings, etc, and their nature, see:

    Any may download the structure of Daniel and Revelation here - Link

    Any may download the great Study here on the Michael the Archangel, The Character that will Stand in the Last Day [see Sections [3] and [4] for Angels, Unfallen worlds and their natures, etc - Link
    ]

    Many do indeed confuse the "sons of God" in Genesis 6:2,4 with those of Job 1:6, 38:5-7 KJB:

    The very “sons of God” who rule the unfallen worlds, as Adam [Luke 3:38 KJB], the first [1 Corinthians 15:45,46,47 KJB], on earth had [Genesis 1:26,28; Psalms 8:5 KJB] before his fall, and the angelic “morning stars”:

    Job 1:6 KJB - Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

    Job 2:1 KJB - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

    Job 38:4 KJB - Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding

    Job 38:5 KJB - Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

    Job 38:6 KJB - Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

    Job 38:7 KJB - When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    Side note, none of these Job texts, in regards the “sons of God”, are dealing with the Genesis 6-9 KJB account and are not referring to created heavenly beings. Job 1:6, 2:1 KJB deals with the timeframe in a period well after the flood, and Job 38:4-7 KJB deals with the timeframe long before the flood, when the earth was created. The only texts in Job which are dealing directly with the timeframe of the flood, are Job 22:15,16,17, 26:5 KJB, and please notice it speaks of “men”.

    For more on who the “sons of God” are in Genesis 6:2,4 KJB, please see Luke 3:38; Genesis 4:26 KJB, etc., and for the daughters of men, see Genesis 4:16-24 KJB.

    See also the following for “sons”, “children”, “father” of the good, etc:

    Genesis 6:2,4; Deuteronomy 14:1; 2 Samuel 7:14; Isaiah 8:18, 9:6, 63:16, 64:8; Hosea 1:10; Matthew 5:9,45 6:9; Luke 3:38, 6:35,36, 11:2, 20:26; John 1:12, 11:52, 12:36; Romans 1:7, 8:14,16,17,19,21, 9:8, 9:26 [citing Hosea 1:10 KJB]; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2, 6:18; Galatians 1:4, 3:26, 4:6,7; Ephesians 5:1; Philippians 1:2, 2:15, 4:20; Colossians 1:2; 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 3:11,13; 2 Thessalonians 1:1,2, 2:16; Titus 1:4; Philemon 1:3; Hebrews 2:10,13 [citing Isaiah 8:18 KJB], 12:7,9; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 1:3, 3:1,2, 5:2 KJB.

    See also the following for the “sons”, “children”, “father” of the evil, etc.:

    Genesis 3:15; Matthew 13:38; John 8:42,44; Acts 13:10; Romans 6:16, 9:8; Ephesians 2:2, 5:6; Colossians 3:6; Hebrews 12:8; 1 Peter 3:19 [compare to Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6,7, 61:1; Luke 4:18 KJB], 3:20; 1 John 3:8,10,12, 4:4,5,6,7,8 KJB.

    See the following for comparison with the Genesis 6:2,4 KJB account:

    See Abraham and Isaac in Genesis 24:3,37 KJB.

    See Esau and Jacob in Genesis 26:34,35, 28:8,9 [comparing to Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6 KJB], 36:2.

    See Isaac and Jacob in Genesis 27:46, 28:1,6 KJB.

    See Jacob and Hamor in Genesis 34:9,14 KJB.

    See Moses in Exodus 34:15,16 KJB.

    See in Deuteronomy 17:17 KJB.

    See Balaam in Numbers 25:1,2,3 KJB.

    See in Judges 3:5,6,7 KJB.

    See Samson the Judge in Judges 14:1,2,3 KJB.

    See the Chronicles in 1 Chronicles 5:24,25 KJB.

    See Ezra in Ezra 9:1,2,11,12 KJB.

    See Nehemiah in Nehemiah 9:2, 10:28,29,30, 13:23,25,26,27 KJB.

    See Solomon in 1 Kings 11:1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 KJB.

    Many “Sons of God” “looked”/“saw” [“saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair” and “took them wives of all which they chose” [Genesis 6:2 KJB]] and "beheld" [Just as did Samson, “she pleaseth me well”, or King David who went after Bathsheba, the wife of Uriah the Hittite and his friend, through covetousness had Uriah killed in action “from the roof he saw a woman washing herself; and the woman [was] very beautiful to look upon” [2 Samuel 11:2, 12:9 KJB] and Solomon who “multiplied wives” and “loved many strange women” and all Israel who took of the “daughters of the land”], and then “lusted and coveted” and so were ensnared being “Vex[ed], Beguiled, To Commit Trespass Against The LORD, Commit Fornication, Eat things sacrificed unto Idols, worshipped idols” [Numbers 25:18, 31:16; Revelation 2:14 KJB]:

    Jude 1:11 KJB - Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

    See also the words of Jesus, as it was in the days of Noah and Lot:

    Job 21:7,14, 22:15,16,17; Matthew 24:37,38; Luke 17:26,27; 2 Peter 2:5, 3:3,6 KJB.

    In the greater overall picture there is a like message and call for the “people of God” also today to “come out” of “Spiritual Babylon” [just as God had done with physical Babylon; Jeremiah 51:9; Isaiah 52:11 KJB] that “great Whore” [Revelation 17:1, 19:2 KJB]:

    See 2 Corinthians 6:14,15,16,17,18; Revelation 18:4 KJB.

    For “giants” of men, after the flood, see:

    Genesis 10:8,9, 14:5, 15:20; Numbers 13:32,33; Deuteronomy 2:11,20,21, 3:11,13, 9:2; Joshua 12:4, 13:12, 15:8, 17:15, 18:16; 2 Samuel 5:18,22, 21:16,18,19,20,22; 1 Chronicles 11:23, 14:9, 20:4,5,6; Isaiah 17:5, 45:14 KJB

    For “men of reknown” see:

    Numbers 1:16, 16:2, 26:9; 1 Chronicles 5:24, 12:30 KJB

    For more specific details see the Sons of God article.

    “Anak”, and descendants, and ancestors:

    “Anak” is found in the following verses:

    Numbers 13:22, 13:28, 13:33 KJB

    Deuteronomy 9:2 KJB

    Joshua 15:13, 15:14, 21:11 KJB

    Judges 1:20 KJB

    The “Children of Anak” are found:

    Ahiman; Numbers 13:22 KJB

    Sheshai; Numbers 13:22 KJB

    Talmai; Numbers 13:22 KJB

    The “Father of Anak”, named “Arba” is found in the following verses:

    Joshua 14:15, 15:13, 21:11 KJB

    “Arba” was the ruler of “Kirjath-Arba” [“City of Arba”, aka “Hebron”], found in the following verses:

    kirjatharba, 6 times

    Genesis 23:2 (2); Joshua 14:15, 15:54, 20:7; Judges 1:10; Nehemiah 11:25 KJB

    City of Arba[h], 3 times

    Genesis 35:27; Joshua 15:13, 21:11 KJB

    The “City of Arbah” [“Hebron”], lies in the “plain of Mamre”:

    Genesis 13:18, 14:13,24, 18:1, 23:17,19, 25:9, 35:27, 49:30, 50:13 KJB

    “The plain of Mamre” was in the “Land of Canaan”:

    Genesis 49:30 KJB

    “Mamre”, was an “Amorite”:

    Genesis 14:13 KJB

    The “Amorites” were descendants/children of “Canaan”:

    Genesis 10:15,16 KJB
    “Canaan” was a son of “Ham”

    Genesis 10:6 KJB

    “Ham” was a son of “Noah” [“Noe”]:

    Genesis 5:32 KJB

    “Noah” [“Noe”] was a son of “Lamech”:

    Genesis 5:29,30; Luke 3:36 KJB

    “Lamech” was a son of “Methuselah”[“Mathusala”]:

    Genesis 5:25; Luke 3:37 KJB

    “Methuselah” [“Mathusala”] was a son of “Enoch”:

    Genesis 5:21; Luke 3:37 KJB

    “Enoch” was a son of “Jared”:

    Genesis 5:18; Luke 3:37 KJB

    “Jared” was a son of “Mahalaleel” [“Maleleel”]:

    Genesis 5:16,17; Luke 3:37 KJB

    “Mahalaleel” [“Maleleel”] was a son of “Cainan”:

    Genesis 5:12,13; Luke 3:37 KJB

    “Cainan” was a son of “Enos”:

    Genesis 5:9,10; Luke 3:38 KJB

    “Enos” was a son of “Seth”:

    Genesis 4:26, 5:6,7; Luk 3:38 KJB

    “Seth” was a son of “Adam” and his wife, “Eve” [Genesis 2:23; “the mother of all living” [Genesis 3:20]]:

    Genesis 4:25; Luke 3:38 KJB

    “Adam” [“the first man” 1Cor 15:45 ] was the “son of God”:

    Genesis 1 & 2; Luke 3:38 KJB

    Acts 17:26 KJB - And hath made of onebloodallnations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

    Genesis 5:1 KJB - This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

    Genesis 10;1 KJB - Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

    Therefore, since Anak, was the child of Arba, and Arba founded the city of Arba[h], and the City of Arba [KirjathArba, Hebron] was in the plain of Mamre, and Mamre was an Amorite, which was in the land of Canaan, which were named for the persons which settled there, being the son of Ham, the son of Noah [Noe] … which was the son of Adam, the first man, and Eve, who was the mother of all living, we can see that “Anak”, was thereforean Amorite descendant of Canaan, etc.

    The Bible lists many people that suddenly appear without apparent ancestor genealogy, and some without descendant genealogy, but that does not indicate that the Scriptures are saying that there were other races of men around, other than descendants of Adam [of whom all races of men are of “one blood”]/Eve [“the mother of all living”]and/or Noah [since the flood only left the 8 [“Noah only remained alive” Genesis 7:23 KJB, the “eight” persons left alive; 1 Peter 3:20 KJB]]. It simply indicates that their ancestry is already indicated through the lineages primarily given in Genesis 5 and 10 and before unto Creation in Genesis 1 & 2. When we compare Scripture with Scripture, line upon line [Isaiah 28 KJB] we can also consider the locations/lands in which they lived, what cities, etc surround those names, in their context to obtain a clearer picture.

    When we compare Scripture with Scripture, line upon line [Isaiah 28] we can also consider the locations/lands in which they lived, what cities, etc surround those names, in their context to obtain a clearer picture.

    "Emims":

    Deuteronomy 2:11 KJB - Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.

    "Zamzummims":


    Deuteronomy 2:20 KJB - (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;

    Deuteronomy 2:21 KJB - A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:

    Deuteronomy 2:20 KJB - (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;

    Deuteronomy 2:21 KJB - A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; but the LORD destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:

    Others, "children of the giant", "sons of the giant":

    1 Chronicles 11:23 KJB - And he slew an Egyptian, a man of [great] stature, five cubits high; and in the Egyptian's hand [was] a spear like a weaver's beam; and he went down to him with a staff, and plucked the spear out of the Egyptian's hand, and slew him with his own spear.

    1 Chronicles 20:4 KJB - And it came to pass after this, that there arose war at Gezer with the Philistines; at which time Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Sippai, [that was] of the children of the giant: and they were subdued.

    1 Chronicles 20:5 KJB - And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, whose spear staff [was] like a weaver's beam.

    1 Chronicles 20:6 KJB - And yet again there was war at Gath, where was a man of [great] stature, whose fingers and toes [were] four and twenty, six [on each hand], and six [on each foot]: and he also was the son of the giant.

    2 Samuel 21:16 KJB - And Ishbibenob, which [was] of the sons of the giant, the weight of whose spear [weighed] three hundred [shekels] of brass in weight, he being girded with a new [sword], thought to have slain David.

    2 Samuel 21:18 KJB - And it came to pass after this, that there was again a battle with the Philistines at Gob: then Sibbechai the Hushathite slew Saph, which [was] of the sons of the giant.

    2 Samuel 21:19 KJB - And there was again a battle in Gob with the Philistines, where Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew [the brother of] Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear [was] like a weaver's beam.

    2 Samuel 21:20 KJB - And there was yet a battle in Gath, where was a man of [great] stature, that had on every hand six fingers, and on every foot six toes, four and twenty in number; and he also was born to the giant.

    2 Samuel 21:22 KJB - These four were born to the giant in Gath, and fell by the hand of David, and by the hand of his servants.

    Isaiah 45:14 KJB - Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Egypt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee; in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, [saying], Surely God [is] in thee; and [there is] none else, [there is] no God.

    There are two ways, the Ways of God, or the way of wickedness.

    Another piece of the text to consider in the context of Genesis 6:4 are the words "men of renown":

    English: "reknown" = Hebrew: "shem" "שֵׁם" [meaning: name, reputation, fame, glory, memorial, monument, stigma [a mark with which anyone is marked], notable, famous or infamous] [Strong's Concordance]

    Compare to those in the camp of Moses, where the exact same words are used:

    Numbers 16:2 KJB - And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:
    ...or compare these passages which also deal with mankind alone:

    Numbers 1:16 KJB - These [were] the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.

    Numbers 26:9 KJB - And the sons of Eliab; Nemuel, and Dathan, and Abiram. This [is that] Dathan and Abiram, [which were] famous in the congregation, who strove against Moses and against Aaron in the company of Korah, when they strove against the LORD:

    1 Chronicles 5:24 KJB - And these [were] the heads of the house of their fathers, even Epher, and Ishi, and Eliel, and Azriel, and Jeremiah, and Hodaviah, and Jahdiel, mighty men of valour, famous men, [and] heads of the house of their fathers.

    1 Chronicles 12:30 KJB - And of the children of Ephraim twenty thousand and eight hundred, mighty men of valour, famous throughout the house of their fathers.

    ...or compare to those who allow God to make them a great name, to those who make a great name for themselves:

    [God makes the name great]

    Genesis 12:2 KJB - And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

    [Man makes the name great]

    Genesis 11:4 KJB - And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

    Of course all of this makes perfect sense, since, Angelic beings are a differing "kind" than mankind, and with differing "celestial" "bodies" [not 'spirit-bodies', which is a contradiction in terms scripturally [KJB; Luke 24:39 KJB, etc], but 'spiritual bodies', that is flesh under the control of the Holy Spirit], than our "terestrial" "bodies", and are not of the "same" "flesh" as mankind, but differing "flesh" as it is written: Jude 1:7; 1 Corinthans 15:38-41 KJB, ec. Angelic beings cannot procreate, but this was only given to the children [mankind] of this world, "be fruitful", "multiply", "replenish [fill] the earth", etc., never of which was said to the angelic beings. Mankind comes of the "seed", of man and woman, male and female.

    For more on this topic, just ask, or if any have a question ...
     
  10. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    David isn't speaking. He's in the grave. The only way he could possibly still speak, is by what is written in the pages of the OT. That still speaks.

    1 Kings 2:10 KJB - So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.​

    Where is David? Asleep, buried.

    Acts 2:29 KJB - Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    Acts 2:34 KJB - For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,​

    Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, with the other 11, at Pentecost, quoting inspired OT -Psalms 110:1, is clear.

    But you don't believe him, whom you say you believe. You believe 'tradition' of men, not found in scripture.

    I don't care how old error is, age doesn't sanctify error. I also have quotes that show that Christians did not always believe your 'tradition', but believed what Peter said.

    Why not consider LeRoy Edwin Frooms, the conditionalist faith of our fathers, Vol 1 [Link] an Vol 2 [Link].
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  11. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single

    Genesis 3:4 KJB - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:​

    They most certainly are "oral tradition", far older than 2,000 years ... try about 6,000 years, and yes, he did drop out of the sky, fell down ...

    God's word said:

    Genesis 2:17 KJB - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​
     
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Absolutely, since there are three heavens in the Bible [KJB]:

    [1] Atmosphere

    Genesis 1:20 KJB - And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    [2] 'Heaven of Heavens' [aka 'space']

    Genesis 1:16 KJB - And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

    Genesis 1:17 KJB - And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

    Therefore, yes, there is a Sun and Moon in Heaven [2nd], and stars.

    [3] Highest Heaven

    2 Crinthians 12:2 KJB - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    Yes, God deals in time:

    Acts 1:7 KJB - And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.​

    "Time" is mentioned all through scripture, in prophecy, events, sin, judgment in Heaven and on earth.

    Jesus Christ actually ascended to a specific place, from which He came. He did not poof into perfume and pervade throughout the universe, and so pass on. A place with real eternal gates, real foundations:

    Psalms 24:7 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:8 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, the LORD mighty in battle.

    Psalms 24:9 KJB - Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.

    Psalms 24:10 KJB - Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

    Hebrews 11:10 KJB - For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
    In regards omnipresence:

    God is omnipresent through omniscience, as it is written:

    Psalms 139:1 KJB - To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. O LORD, thou hast searched me, and known me.

    Psalms 139:2 KJB - Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.

    Psalms 139:3 KJB - Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.

    Psalms 139:4 KJB - For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.

    Psalms 139:5 KJB - Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.

    Psalms 139:6 KJB - Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.

    Psalms 139:7 KJB - Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

    Psalms 139:8 KJB - If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

    Psalms 139:9 KJB - If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;

    Psalms 139:10 KJB - Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

    Psalms 139:11 KJB - If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.

    Psalms 139:12 KJB - Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

    Psalms 139:13 KJB - For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

    Psalms 139:14 KJB - I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

    Psalms 139:15 KJB - My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

    Psalms 139:16 KJB - Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

    Psalms 139:17 KJB - How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

    Psalms 139:18 KJB - If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

    Psalms 139:19 KJB - Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

    Psalms 139:20 KJB - For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

    Psalms 139:21 KJB - Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

    Psalms 139:22 KJB - I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

    Psalms 139:23 KJB - Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:

    Psalms 139:24 KJB - And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

    1 John 3:20 KJB - For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.​

    The Father is in a specific location, Heaven [3rd]:

    Matthew 5:16 KJB - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 5:45 KJB - That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Matthew 5:48 KJB - Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    Matthew 6:1 KJB - Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 6:9 KJB - After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    Matthew 7:11 KJB - If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    Matthew 7:21 KJB - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 10:32 KJB - Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 10:33 KJB - But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 12:50 KJB - For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Matthew 16:17 KJB - And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 18:10 KJB - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 18:14 KJB - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

    Matthew 18:19 KJB - Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

    Matthew 23:9 KJB - And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

    Mark 11:25 KJB - And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

    Mark 11:26 KJB - But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

    Luke 11:2 KJB - And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    Luke 15:21 KJB - And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.​

    Jesus Christ is in a specific location in Heaven [3rd], having ascended unto the Father:

    Luke 24:51 KJB - And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.

    John 17:11 KJB - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    Acts 1:9 KJB - And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    Acts 1:10 KJB - And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    Acts 1:11 KJB - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    Acts 7:55 KJB - But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

    Acts 7:56 KJB - And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

    Ephesians 4:9 KJB - (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

    Ephesians 4:10 KJB - He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    Revelation 12:5 KJB - And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.​

    The person of the Holy Ghost/Spirit is now on earth:

    Revelation 5:6 KJB - And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

    Acts 2:33 KJB - Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    Acts 8:29 KJB - Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

    Acts 16:7 KJB - After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not.

    Psalms 133:1 KJB - A Song of degrees of David. Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!

    Psalms 133:2 KJB - It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

    Psalms 133:3 KJB - As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

    John 14:16 KJB - And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:17 KJB - Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.​

    How then does the Holy Ghost/Spirit dwell in each, well there are some mysteries involved, but we also know that it is through the word of God:

    John 14:23 KJB - Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    John 15:7 KJB - If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

    John 15:26 KJB - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:13 KJB - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    John 16:14 KJB - He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 16:15 KJB - All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

    John 17:17 KJB - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.​

    Just food for thought:

    "... PERSONALITY OF GOD

    MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}

    But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}

    The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}

    Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}

    Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}

    We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.

    OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}

    ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}

    OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}

    ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}

    2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}

    God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}

    Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}

    Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}

    "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}
    "Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]

    After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1}

    IMMATERIALITY

    THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}

    O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]

    who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}

    The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}

    Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}

    As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}

    What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}

    What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}

    What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}

    We choose all substance - what remains
    The mystical sectarian gains;
    All that each claims, each shall possess,
    Nor grudge each other's happiness.

    An immaterial God they choose,
    For such a God we have no use;
    An immaterial heaven and hell,
    In such a heaven we cannot dwell.

    We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
    And all the starry worlds on high;
    Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
    And bodies made of flesh and bones.

    Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
    When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
    All things are ours, and we shall be,
    The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1
     
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    1 Corinthians 15:51 KJB - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    1 Corinthians 15:52 KJB - In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.​

    Notice how Paul, says that we are to take comfort in regards to those who die in the lord Jesus:

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 KJB - But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 KJB - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    [that is the Father will bring them resurrected saints back to Heaven with Jesus, after he comes to get us, see John 14:1-3 KJB]

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 KJB - For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJB - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    1 Thessalonians 4:17 KJB - Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1 Thessalonians 4:18 KJB - Wherefore comfort one another with these words.​
     
  14. Mountainmike

    Mountainmike Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,310
    Catholic
    Married
    Evidently not, by the dogmatic way in which you twist matters. As others pointed out "pray for" and "pray to" are evidently different.

    As for scripture, I can only point out that Jesus (once) and the apostles (numerous times) demonstrably quote the septuagint greek OT (rather than hebrew OT) where the text differs enough to be certain.
    Which demonstrates Jesus considered the septuagint scripture. And we know from record the septuagint contains Maccabees II which specifically refers to prayers for the dead that their sins may be forgiven.

    We also know from 1 Peter 3 that Jesus after death preached to the "spirits in prison".

    We know also this was established tradition (ie the faith handed down) Christian and Jewish and is referred to by Tertullian long before the new testament existed in final form


    So the provably false doctrine of Sola scriptura is your problem - your belief you can interpret it infallibly - (easily provable as false, by logic scriptura and history ) Sola scriptura is the false man made tradition of the reformation that launched 10000 schisms. Indeed by divorcing the word of scripture from the meaning of scripture handed by tradition and authority, you no longer have the word of God, you all disagree on what it means which results in mutually exclusive protestant beliefs on every aspect of doctrine from baptism onwards! Even luther despaired of this in later life that "it is the greatest scandal" "there are now as many doctrines as heads". Sola scriptura divorces scripture from its meaning, and has left a free for all. But without the true meaning (sacred tradition) if you all have is the words of scripture you no longer have the truth or therefore the word of God.

    Study instead the early church, when the faith was passed by tradition and see what the apostles handed down, that the church at Rome was the "pillar and foundation of truth"- which is where such as Irenaus tell you to look!. And without the authority fo the church and the power of apostolic successors to "bind and loose" ratified in council you would not have an authoritative new testament. And as pointed out those fathers who chose your canon, confirmed in Hippo believed in efficacy of prayers for the dead - as indeed Augustine of Hippo makes clear.

    So "prayers for the dead" is the authentic christianity.

    So the question is not why we believe it.
    The question is why you dont - and why you "think you have the authority to decide that "your interpretation" has authority, when you disagree profoundly with the church that clearly was given authority by Jesus. "the pillar and foundation of truth" - noted as such by apostolic successors.

    It is a painful dilemma for protestants.
    Unless you accept the authority of the catholic church you have no new testament. So sola scriptura fails.

    If you accept the authority of the catholic church you must accept the meaning of scripture from tradition and the authority of the church to rule on doctrine. So sola scriptura fails!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  15. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

    +8,481
    Australia
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    Discussing theology on the Internet isn't in the Bible, yet here we are.
     
  16. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    What "tradition" is Paul talking about? Read the context, its about labouring, not being idle, which example Paul and others had shown them personally by their very lives, but your 'tradition' would make this about all kinds of nonsense not found in scripture, when he told you specifically what the 'tradition' was, active orderly and united labour:

    2 Thessalonians 3:6 KJB - Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.

    2 Thessalonians 3:7 KJB - For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

    2 Thessalonians 3:8 KJB - Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

    2 Thessalonians 3:9 KJB - Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

    2 Thessalonians 3:10 KJB - For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

    2 Thessalonians 3:11 KJB - For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.

    2 Thessalonians 3:12 KJB - Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.

    2 Thessalonians 3:13 KJB - But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.

    2 Thessalonians 3:14 KJB - And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

    2 Thessalonians 3:15 KJB - Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.​

    Instead of what it plainly says, your 'tradition' buries the beautiful truth, and what happens when you do that? Lazy pot-bellied illiterate monks, beggin' for bread from house to house as it was/is recorded in actual history. All because they wanted to read something into this text which doesn't actually exist as a possiblity. It wars against such practices as they call 'tradition'. Paul will be your judge, even as Moses will be of the pharisees and their useless and commandment nullifying traditions.

    Brother, this is said in "charity" [1 Corinthians 13 KJB]
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  17. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    Mark 16:15 KJB - And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
     
  18. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

    +1,336
    Australia
    Christian
    Private
    The Jews reject Jesus Christ as God the Son so no Christian ought be looking to them to decide the canon of anything.
     
  19. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

    +265
    United States
    Protestant
    Single
    OT 'Canon' was settled long before the nation as a whole rejected Jesus:

    Luke 24:44 KJB - And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.​

    You may read more here - [Link]
     
  20. prodromos

    prodromos Senior Veteran Supporter

    +8,481
    Australia
    Eastern Orthodox
    Married
    That isn't what is happening in this thread.
     
Loading...