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Featured Prayers to the dead - not in the Bible

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by BobRyan, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    Rev 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."

    Hebrews 12:1 "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us"

    Rev 5:11 "Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, who praised the Lord. "

    Hebrews 12:22-23 "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Luke 20:38 Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”
     
  2. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    There is obviously a difference between numbers and Sacred Numbers, with sacred numbers being attempts to find connections between certain "holy" numbers and using them to try to interpret scripture.
     
  3. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.” —Luke 23.

    Said to the thief on the cross. Either Christ was a liar or the thief was resurrected that day for his faith.
     
  4. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    “Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne.” Revelations 8:3

    “And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the PRAYERS OF SAINTS. “Revelations 5:8

    “My body rests in hope. For you will not leave my soul among the dead or allow your Holy One to rot in the grave.” Acts 2:27,28

    “Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Psalms 16:9,10

    “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”1 Corinthians 15:22
     
  5. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Yes, angels carry prayers to heaven, it doesn't say anything about dead people doing it:

    Matthew 18:10 KJB - Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
    The "cloud of witnesses" are angelic beings, see the context:

    Hebrews 12:1 KJB - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,​

    This, leads back to:

    I agree with scripture [KJB] that we, Christians, are, indeed, “compassed about” [surrounded] “with so great a cloud of witnesses”, who are indeed “saints” [angels are Holy]. These “witnesses”, these “saints” are primarily the angels of Heaven and the beings of the unfallen worlds, the 24 elders [leaders of the unfallen realms]. The exceptions to that, are those special individuals of mankind that were glorified and taken to Heaven, such as Enoch, Elijah, Moses and Firstfruits & Jesus [who ascended]. Notice the word, “also”, which refers back to Hebrews 11.

    The “so great a cloud of witnesses” who watch, with great interest, the Great Controversy, from above, and have given “good report” [Hebrews 11:2,39 KJB] of the elders gone before, and who have “obtained witness” [Hebrews 11:4 KJB] from those unfallen beings above, are the angels of Heaven and the unfallen worlds.

    Consider well the words of Paul, when he uses the words “also” and “we” in connection with those elders gone previously, even all the way back to Abel. Notice the words “good report” [Hebrews 11:2 KJB]; “God testifying” [Hebrews 11:4 KJB], “testimony” [Hebrews 11:5 KJB], “pleased God” [Hebrews 11:5 KJB], etc.

    Hebrews 12:22 KJB - But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,​

    How are those who are “dead in Christ” [1 Thessalonians 4:16 KJB], as Peter [who is returned unto dust, in the grave, and sleeps there], etc., in Heaven? “In Christ” [Ephesians 2:6 KJB], and “written” there, until such time as they are resurrected and glorified and taken home:

    Hebrews 12:23 KJB - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,​

    So while there is “rejoicing” in Heaven by those [heavenly Angels [“saints”], unfallen beings, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, Firstfruits [“saints”], 24 Elders, Jesus, the Father] who actually dwell in them:

    Revelation 12:12 KJB - Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

    Those, like Peter, who die the first death, “dwell in the dust” of the earth, sleeping:

    Isaiah 26:19 KJB - Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
    Angels, Unfallen beings.

    Written in Heaven, in the book of Life. Not physically there yet, until the resurrection.

    That's right, they "sleep" in the dust of the earth, and are not annihilated in the 2nd death.
     
  6. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    You are saying Jesus went to Heaven [Paradise] that day with the thief, even though all your creeds deny that? If you say yes, I will share those creeds and other texts which says otherwise.
     
  7. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    There is only one creed. And yes we believe Christ is enthroned in heaven our Icons show it

    [​IMG]
     
  8. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    Yes Christ was in sheol for 3 days. But we also believe in the trinity. Therefore the thief would be in heaven with God the father, and since there is no time in heaven, Christ would be there as well, though he is also on Earth. The power of omniscience.
     
  9. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Heavenly being [really Jesus Christ], acting as High Priest in the Heavenly sanctuary.

    Living saints, not dead and sleeping in the ground saints.

    A reference to Jesus. Notice that the deceased rest in the grave, until they are resurrected.

    Ditto as above. By the way, David is still in the grave and not resurrected and not ascended into heaven, see Acts 2.

    In they will be [future tenese], ath the last day.
     
  10. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    The deceased who rest in the grave are the unsaved

    All your other references are just interpretations from your own viewpoint. None of them disprove mine.

    You forget that Christ spoke in future tense because he had not yet completed the new covenant. Therefore any words he spoke on Earth had yet to happen in reference to the coming resurrection.
     
  11. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    The we and also in reference to the cloud of witnesses is referring to the difference between the dead and the living, not that they are separate beings.

    And any old testament references to the resurrection of the dead will of course be future tense.
     
  12. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    So Christ came into His Kingdom of Power and Glory that day???

    Luke 23:42 KJB - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    John 20:17 KJB - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

    Matthew 19:28 KJB - And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Matthew 25:31 KJB - When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:​

    According to the various man-made traditions and creeds of Roman Catholicism and others [usually 'Orthodoxy'], Christ Jesus did not go to “Paradise” that day either, but rather they say that he [Christ, in a Platonic Dualism] “descended into hell” [which is completely unscriptural, but that is for another time and topic] and it was not until the “third day” [Matthew 12:40 He said, “three days and three nights”, but on Two occasions, Matthew 27:63; Mark 8:31 He said, “after three days.” and He referred to the same event 5 times in Matthew 26:61, 27:40; Mark 15:29; John 2:19-20 as “in three days”, and on Twelve occasions it is said, “the third day.” Matthew 16:21, 17:23, 20:19; Mark 9:31, 10:34; Luke 9:22, 13:32, 18:33, 24:7,46; Acts 10:40; 1 Corinthians 15:4.] that he arose, and finally “ascended” into heaven. This creates a serious theological conundrum and contradiction for any which believe this, if they also think that Luke 23:43 says Christ Jesus entered “Paradise” that same day he died. Others attempt to redefine “Paradise” into a type of 'limbo', but even in this, it still contradicts.

    We may see this from several Roman Catholic sources, such as:

    Thomas Aquinas “Summa Theologica”, Third Part, Question 52; Article 4, Reply To Objection 1 [and throughout, having both the Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur]:

    Reply to Objection 1. When Christ descended into hell He delivered the saints who were there, not by leading them out at once from the confines of hell, but by enlightening them with the light of glory in hell itself. Nevertheless it was fitting that His soul should abide in hell as long as His body remained in the tomb.” - SUMMA THEOLOGIAE: Christ's descent into hell (Tertia Pars, Q. 52)

    or we may see it from the “Creed of Aquiliea”":

    Descendit ad inferna; tertia die resurrexit a mortuis (He descended to hell; on the third day he rose again from the dead); Ascendit in cœlos; sedet ad dexteram Patris; (He ascended to the heavens; he sits at the right hand of the Father)”- CHURCH FATHERS: Commentary on the Apostles' Creed (Rufinus)

    or considering the “Apostles Creed”, it clearly states that Jesus was not “caught up to Heaven” until after the “third day”; “T” Apostles Creed :

    ...(5) He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; (6) He ascended into Heaven, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; ...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Apostles' Creed

    or considering the “Nicene Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus that he:

    ...suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Nicene Creed

    or considering the “Athanasian Creed”, it clearly says of Jesus:

    ...Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven...” - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Athanasian Creed
     
  13. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

    Abel died and "also" had a "cloud of witnesses", who were they? ["also", Hebrews 12:1 KJB]
     
  14. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    1 Corinthians 15:51 KJB - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    Acts 7:60 KJB - And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Job 17:13 KJB - If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

    John 5:28 KJB - Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

    John 5:29 KJB - And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
     
  15. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    Firstly, using Roman Catholic sources is hardly appropriate as I am not RC secondly.

    Christ stated that he would be in paradise with the thief that day,
    The Bible also days he went into sheol to witness to the dead,
    It also says that he is not resurrected until the third day.

    The only way to explain this is that time is different in the spiritual plane of paradise/heaven, and that for us the time works a different way. Since Christ cannot lie, then we must assume that the thief was in paradise with Christ THAT DAY. Since his God nature is also infinite, omniscient, and omnipotent, he could be in more than one place.
     
  16. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    The physical resurrection. You forget that there were some physically resurrected immediately after Christ's crucifixion. This verse is clarifying the difference.
     
  17. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    I should note that the physical resurrection did not occur until the third day, and that the ascension is of both of Christ's natures.
     
  18. ☦Marius☦

    ☦Marius☦ Orthodox Hillbilly Supporter

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    None of the verses you are giving me actually prove your point. They either
    A. Are before Christ's crucifixion, and therefore in the future tense
    B. Are speaking of the physical resurrection in the end times
    or
    C. Actually proving my point.
     
  19. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    No they don't. They actually worship and believe in the deity that their statues represent
     
  20. The7thColporteur

    The7thColporteur Well-Known Member

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    Please prayerfully read the texts and immediate local context of Luke 23:32-56; Matthew 27:38-66; Mark 15:15-47; John 20:1-31.

    Let us see what we shall gain from these texts and see if there cannot be atonement upon them:

    [1] The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma”:

    The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English,

    “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43

    It is generally because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, alters the immediate context, other passages ,and even a whole doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation on matters of death & resurrection.

    The Greek, reads [without punctuation]:

    As would be found in an ancient document:

    καιειπεναυτωοιησουςαμηνλεγωσοισημερονμετεμουεσηεντ ωπαραδεισω - Luke 23:43
    As commonly understood:

    και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω - Luke 23:43

    As we may see, the comma, is merely an addition of men, to try and help the reader understand the structure of any given sentence. Yet, even some helps, can sometimes be flawed. The placement of a comma can change the meaning entirely, for instance, a few common ones found online:

    "Let's eat, Grandma!" vs.
    "Let's eat Grandma!"

    "A woman, without her, man is nothing." vs
    "A woman without her man, is nothing."​

    etc.

    Therefore, notice what happens when the comma is removed, or changed, or added and make every Caps or lowercase:

    No Punctuation:

    [1A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE - Luke 23:43

    [1B] and jesus said unto him verily i say unto thee to day shalt thou be with me in paradise - Luke 23:43

    KJB Punctuation:

    [2A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE, TO DAY SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

    [2B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    Corrected Punctuation to KJB:

    [3A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE, TO DAY, SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

    [3B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee, to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    Moved Punctuation to KJB:

    [3A] AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, VERILY I SAY UNTO THEE TO DAY, SHALT THOU BE WITH ME IN PARADISE. - Luke 23:43

    [3B] and jesus said unto him, verily i say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    Well, where should the comma, if any, go?

    Some cite the following Scriptures [below] and claim the pattern therein, is in favor of the comma, being before the "to day", only, like as read in the KJB:

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    Notice:

    And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man. - John 1:51

    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. - John 3:11

    Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. - John 5:19

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. - John 5:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. - John 5:25

    Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled. - John 6:26

    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. - John 6:32

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. - John 6:47

    Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. - John 6:53

    Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. - John 8:34

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. - John 8:51

    Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. - John 8:58

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. - John 10:1

    Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. - John 10:7

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. - John 12:24

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. - John 13:16

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. - John 13:20

    When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. - John 13:21

    Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice. - John 13:38

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. - John 14:12

    Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. - John 16:20

    And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you. - John 16:23

    Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry [thee] whither thou wouldest not. - John 21:18

    For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18

    Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing. - Matthew 5:26

    Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:2

    And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:5

    Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. - Matthew 6:16

    When Jesus heard [it], he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. - Matthew 8:10

    Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. - Matthew 10:15

    But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. - Matthew 10:2

    And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold [water] only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. - Matthew 10:42

    For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. - Matthew 13:17
    The bolded "Black" portion is a very good observation of the placement of the comma's, but it is also begging the question a little bit, by attempting to prove from further man-added punctuation, not found in the Greek, the point of the comma at Luke 23:43. Those which normally cite these passages to prove their apriori generally do not take into consideration the fact that it does not prove what they think it does so easily, but rather it proves more than they would want. Please go back and look again at the next comma to follow in the sentences, always after a section which has multiple parts. See the highlighted "red" comma's and/or semi-colon's.

    Thus Luke 23:43 could and should very well look like the following, simply based upon that previous pattern, thus see Corrected Punctuation to KJB example (above):

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    The word "to day" is a section of the sentence unto itself following "Verily I say unto thee," like the other pieces of sentence in the other examples.

    Scripture say, that the "words" would be "preserved" forever:

    The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. - Psalm 12:6

    Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. - Psalm 12:7​

    Notice, it has nothing to say of punctuation. For that, we need to consult the Scriptures, in their context and line upon line, comparing each part with another in their wholeness, not arbitrarily assign a place to where we think something ought to go.

    In context, the comma should actually be after the word “To day”, in either:

    Best:

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    or alternatively [yet not best]:

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise. - Luke 23:43

    The KJB in Luke 23:43, needs to come into harmony with all of the Scripture.

    The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35]

    Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, or even a single text for that matter, for Scripture is always to be understood in such a manner:

    “For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” - Isaiah 28:10

    Let us then look more carefully, and see why the Thief could/did not have gone to "paradise" that day, and neither could/did Jesus.

    [1] The Greek, The English and the placement of a single punctuation, a “comma”: The King James, as other translations, basically share this format in the English, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJB], and because of where the comma is placed [which normally would not mean so much if misplaced however] in this sentence in the English, it alters an entire doctrine which is taught from Genesis to Revelation, that being that the “dead” are “them which are asleep” [1 Thessalonians 4:13,15] and do not immediately upon death enter “Paradise”, for they must first be resurrected [Matthew 22:30; Luke 20:35, etc].

    The Greek Textus Receptus Stephens 1550 has no such comma or punctuation, as seen here

    και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω” Luke 23:43 [Greek]

    The comma should actually be after the word “To day” and not before it, like so, “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” How are we to know, just guess, just let it be where I decide it should be, or to make it fit what I believe, or rather should it be placed in a position where it is in perfect unison with all of the rest of the scriptures on this particular doctrine? The latter should be our answer, since according to scripture itself, “...the scripture cannot be broken.” [John 10:35]

    Additionally, never should any person seek to hang any doctrine upon the case of a punctuation mark, for scripture is always to be understood in such a manner:

    For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:” [Isaiah 28:10]

    [2]
    The context of the other Gospel of John reveals that Jesus did not “ascend” to “Paradise” the day of His death at all, for it is written:

    Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.” John 20:17

    This text in context just eliminated any possibility for the comma to be placed before the word “To day”. What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8].

    Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee to day...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'. It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written,

    (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)” [2 Corinthians 6:2]

    [3]
    Another point to consider, is that Luke is the only one which records these words “And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43 [KJV], and therefore, before any conclude to utilize the exact punctuation of the KJB, or this text, in favor of an erroneous theology, when it comes to the death and resurrection of persons and the timing thereof, ought to consider more context on the whole.

    Especially since Luke says,

    “Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,” - Luke 1:1

    “Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;” - Luke 1:2

    “It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,” - Luke 1:3

    “That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.” - Luke 1:4

    Therefore let us be circumspect and very careful, not to fall into the trap of those which “wrest” [2 Peter 3:16] the scriptures, or as those which “corrupt the Word of God” [2 Corinthians 2:17] as do others.

    It would therefore, be quite dangerous to simply take a single text and claim it proves any doctrine, for a board with one nail in it, will spin all around, but a board with several nails through will be stable.

    Therefore, we need to consider this text within the context which surrounds it and those events, otherwise we would be as satan which only quotes certain portions of any text or context [Matthew 4:6], stopping just short of God's glory - which would be sin [Romans 3:23; 1 John 3:4].

    [5]Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

    Luke 23:43 Greek και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

    It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

    2 Corinthians 12:2 Greek οιδα ανθρωπον εν χριστω προ ετων δεκατεσσαρων ειτε εν σωματι ουκ οιδα ειτε εκτος του σωματος ουκ οιδα ο θεος οιδεν αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου

    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

    And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 2 Corinthians 12:3

    2 Corinthians 12:4 Greek οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον και ηκουσεν αρρητα ρηματα α ουκ εξον ανθρωπω λαλησαι

    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

    Revelation 2:7 Greek ο εχων ους ακουσατω τι το πνευμα λεγει ταις εκκλησιαις τω νικωντι δωσω αυτω φαγειν εκ του ξυλου της ζωης ο εστιν εν μεσω του παραδεισου του θεου

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

    In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

    Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

    Ezekiel 28:13 LXX ἐν τῇ τρυφῇ τοῦ παραδείσου τοῦ θεοῦ ἐγενήθης· πᾶν λίθον χρηστὸν ἐνδέδεσαι, σάρδιον καὶ τοπάζιον καὶ σμάραγδον καὶ ἄνθρακα καὶ σάπφειρον καὶ ἴασπιν καὶ ἀργύριον καὶ χρυσίον καὶ λιγύριον καὶ ἀχάτην καὶ ἀμέθυστον καὶ χρυσόλιθον καὶ βηρύλλιον καὶ ὀνύχιον, καὶ χρυσίου ἐνέπλησας τοὺς θησαυρούς σου καὶ τὰς ἀποθήκας σου ἐν σοὶ ἀφ᾿ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐκτίσθης σύ.

    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

    Ezekiel 31:9 LXX διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν κλάδων αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐζήλωσεν αὐτὸν τὰ ξύλα τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς τοῦ θεοῦ.

    I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezekiel 31:9

    Isaiah 51:3 LXX καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω, Σιων, καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον κυρίου· εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ, ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως.

    For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3
    Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron].

    [6] Jesus was dead and in the Tomb, resting in the sleep of death upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the Lord thy God, for even in death He is perfect, for he not going anywhere, as it is written, “...he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.” [Job 21:32], until after His resurrection, for He must of necessity fulfill the scriptures:

    Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

    He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

    Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

    I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8

    [7] Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive” [the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21],

    “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8 [Special Resurrection at Jesus own Resurrection, see also Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53]​

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

    The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

    The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

    “to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

    “to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

    “to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

    “to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

    “to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

    “make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

    “come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

    “to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].
    Therefore, since Jesus is fulfilling the types in their order, Jesus was not to be the Firstfruits until His resurrection from the dead in/on the 16th Of Nisan/Aviv {the "first [day] of the week", which was "...the Third day since these things were done" Luke 24:21}, which is two days later from the Passover, the 14th of Nisan/Aviv, as it is given in Scripture.

    [8] Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”.

    Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].

    [9] The thief specifically stated this: "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." Luke 23:42, which is the context of Luke 23:43, and we know that Jesus has not yet received that Kingdom, for He does not yet sit upon the Throne of Glory:

    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:31

    Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven. He is not yet married unto it.

    He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniuel 7:13

    And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17 The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be.​

    See also: Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9

    Especially Read Matthew 25 and the Ten Virgins.
     
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