BobRyan

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I am having a hard time following the gist of your posts. Would you state more explicitly the objection that (it seems) you have to certain points of RC teaching?

You have at least one person here claiming that the 2nd commandment should not be applied to Christians - as a response to the details in the OP.

In your POV - do all Christians think that? If they don't then you have a difference right there out of the gate.
 
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klutedavid

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Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "



Do you read "graven images and stop"??
No.

I asked how you read it?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
 
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klutedavid

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I read it with emphasis on vs 5 -- the text you apparently want to leave out of it.
A false accusation simply because I never said to omit anything.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Does that verse say, not to occupy oneself with a copy of anything in creation?
 
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archer75

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958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.


Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "



So then you are ok with "communion with the dead"

And do you also agree that the 2nd commandment does not apply to you only to others?
I am okay being in communion with Christians who have died, because I desire neither them nor me to be cut off from the Body of Christ.

I think the 2nd commandment "applies" to me as much as to others. You can easily look up Orthodox or RC teaching on this matter. But if you are going to be a stickler for the "literalistic" meaning -

1) Why were images of angels used in Israel's worship?

2) it forbids "graven" images. Graven means carved or incised. In my icon corner you will not find one statue or even incised picture. Only printed copies. So to what do you object there, if "graven image" is to be taken at "face value" with no regard for content or for the Incarnation?
 
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BobRyan

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958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.


Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

@BobRyan What exactly do you object to? Yes, we are in communion with the dead and the living who are in the Body of Christ. What is your objection?

I see you are quoting from the CCC and I am not a RC, but I think our EO beliefs are close enough that your objection will apply to both.

So then you are ok with "communion with the dead"

And do you also agree that the 2nd commandment does not apply to you only to others?

I am okay being in communion with Christians who have died, because I desire neither them nor me to be cut off from the Body of Christ.

Ok then . when the statement is made "some Christians choose not to be in communion with the dead, and other do rather enjoy it" -- you would be in the second group.

I think the 2nd commandment "applies" to me as much as to others. You can easily look up Orthodox or RC teaching on this matter.

So then -

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

you accept that you are not to bow down before nor promise to serve the dead?

But if you are going to be a stickler for the "literalistic" meaning -

1) Why were images of angels used in Israel's worship?

Did Israel bow down to them and promise to serve them? What did angels say when someone tried that stunt on them?

2) it forbids "graven" images. Graven means carved or incised. In my icon corner you will not find one statue or even incised picture. Only printed copies. So to what do you object there, if "graven image" is to be taken at "face value" with no regard for content or for the Incarnation?

If the intent is to bow down before it and promise to serve the angel or dead person it represents (in a "communion with the dead" kind of way) - I would choose not to do it.
 
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BobRyan

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"Prayers to the dead - not in the Bible" The title only applies to those shrunken bibles with a mere 66 books listed in the table of contents.

The so-called "expanded" Bible is the one with extra Jewish books in it - which the Jews themselves admit are not supposed to be there.
 
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archer75

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You have at least one person here claiming that the 2nd commandment should not be applied to Christians - as a response to the details in the OP.

In your POV - do all Christians think that? If they don't then you have a difference right there out of the gate.
Uh. I doubt any Christians seriously think that as you said it.

But I do think many Christians of all denominations make idols out of many things - guns, money, reputation, to mention a few. They make these things into gods and put them before God. Certainly I have done this.

Icons (or statues, which are not used in Orthodox worship much at present but do have a place in Orthodox history) are not gods, but are reminders. They are tools of prayer.
 
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archer75

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958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.


Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "



So then you are ok with "communion with the dead"

And do you also agree that the 2nd commandment does not apply to you only to others?



Ok then . when the statement is made "some Christians choose not to be in communion with the dead, and other do rather enjoy it" -- you would be in the second group.



So then -

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

you accept that you are not to bow down before nor promise to serve the dead?



Did Israel bow down to them and promise to serve them? What did angels say when someone tried that stunt on them?



If the intent is to bow down before it and promise to serve the angel or dead person it represents (in a "communion with the dead" kind of way) - I would choose not to do it.
I can't help being in communion with some people who have died. They are part of the Body of Christ and are alive in Christ. What do you want me to do about that?

What did I say about promising to serve the dead? When did I say I did that?

I don't promise to serve angels or dead humans, Christian or not. Where did you get this idea?
 
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BobRyan

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Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

What does the following commandment mean?
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Do you read "graven images and stop"??

No.

I asked how you read it?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.


I read it with emphasis on vs 5 -- the text you apparently want to leave out of it.

Notice how many times I point to v5 of the 2nd commandment (starting with the OP) -- and you then respond -- without it?

Because "I certainly noticed".

A false accusation simply because I never said to omit anything.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Does that verse say, not to occupy oneself with a copy of anything in creation?

Back to "just vs 4" again???

I read it with emphasis on vs 5 -- the verse "not in your post again... and again... and again" :)
 
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BobRyan

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I can't help being in communion with some people who have died. They are part of the Body of Christ and are alive

So then you do not think of them as "the dead in Christ" but they are "the dead that you are in communion with" when you affirm "communion with the dead" right?

1 Thess 5
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Notice that "we who are alive" is never applied to "the dead in Christ" - rather always contrasted with them.

Given this Bible context alone -- it is probably easy for you to see how it could be that many Christians today would prefer not to engage in "communion with the dead"

And at the same time - it is also easy to see how a great many world religions who do not have access to 1 Thess 5 or Isaiah 8:19 WOULD in fact be choosing "communion with the dead"

Given that Isiah 8:19 includes this " should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? "
 
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archer75

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So then you do not think of them as "the DEAD in Christ" but they are the "DEAD that you are in communion with" right?
Well, they are dead in the world - physically - until the resurrection. But they are alive in Christ.

Yes, they're the dead I mean here. Not just any person who has died.

Do you still object?
 
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GingerBeer

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'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins'
If it is not in the bible then why did your post start with a quote from the bible; specifically "because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins" which is from this passsage
2Macc 12:38 Judas reorganised his army, and then went to the city of Adullam. Since it was the week’s end, they purified themselves and celebrated the Sabbath there. 39 The next day the companions of Judas went to take away the bodies of the dead (it was urgent to do it) and buried them with their relatives in the tombs of their fathers. 40 They found under the tunic of each of the dead men objects consecrated to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbade the Jews to wear. So it became clear to everyone why these men had died. 41 Everyone blessed the intervention of the Lord, the just Judge who brings to light the most secret deeds; 42 and they prayed to the Lord to completely pardon the sin of their dead companions. The valiant Judas urged his men to shun such sin in the future, for they had just seen with their own eyes what had happened to those who sinned. 43 He took up a collection among his soldiers which amounted to two thousand pieces of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to be offered there as a sacrifice for sin. They did all this very well and rightly inspired by their belief in the resurrection of the dead. 44 If they did not believe that their fallen companions would rise again, then it would have been a useless and foolish thing to pray for them. 45 But they firmly believed in a splendid reward for those who died as believers; therefore, their concern was holy and in keeping with faith. 46 This was the reason why Judas had this sacrifice offered for the dead— so that the dead might be pardoned for their sin.​
 
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GingerBeer

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Indeed. It is not expanded but is just not reduced in its number of books.
Very true, whole chapters were removed from Esther and from Daniel in the "bible" if one happens to have a 66 book edited version.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, they are dead in the world - physically - until the resurrection. But they are alive in Christ.

If so then when you seek "communion with the dead" you are saying you are seeking out their dead bodies -- because as you have defined it - those in heaven are "not the dead" only their bodies here on earth are?

or should the doctrine have been titled "no communion with the dead - only communion with the alive-in-Christ"??

And do you have a place where the Bible calls the dead "the alive in Christ"??

OP now amended slightly to accommodate your post.

You seem to be saying that everywhere we see "the dead" in the text below - we should qualify it as "the dead body of those who are in heaven alive in Christ"

In "memory of the dead body"??
Pray "for the dead bodies that they may be loosed from their sins"??
"the dead bodies who are being purified"??


958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.


962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).
 
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archer75

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If so then when you seek "communion with the dead" you are saying you are seeking out their dead bodies -- because as you have defined it - those in heaven are "not the dead" only their bodies here on earth are?

or should the doctrine have been titled "no communion with the dead - only communion with the alive-in-Christ"??

And do you have a place where the Bible calls the dead "the alive in Christ"??
You are now attributing words to me that I have not said and do not mean. I cannot respond. I said nothing about seeking out dead bodies. If you took it that way, you are mistaken. If you deliberately took it wrong, please do not do so again.

1 Corinthians 15:20-22
 
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BobRyan

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=== OP ===

Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Many non-Christian world religions also pray to the dead. And as one Catholic Digest Q&A article said -- the difference includes being careful "which dead" that you are praying to.

Both groups use images to in some way to represent the being they are praying to - and both groups ask for favors or promise some sort of devotion.

Driving in the car on the way home from a recent trip to visit family - I heard a radio program "EWTN" that was a call-in show. Many catholics were calling in and asking questions of the priest. After a number of callers one pattern began to emerge. They were all asking about the best ritual or practice or for adoring this or that statue/image or for conducting liturgy in Latin (or not) ...

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

Later that same day - another call-in show on another radio station -- this one was evangelical and the callers were all asking questions about doctrine or what the Bible meant when it said "this" or "That".

What an interesting world we live in.

Side note: -- see also
962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).[/QUOTE]




If it is not in the bible then why did your post start with a quote from the bible; specifically "because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins"

It was from the Catechism "958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective."

which is from this passsage
2Macc 12:38 Judas reorganised his army, and then went to the city of Adullam. Since it was the week’s end, they purified themselves and celebrated the Sabbath there. 39 The next day the companions of Judas went to take away the bodies of the dead (it was urgent to do it) and buried them with their relatives in the tombs of their fathers. 40 They found under the tunic of each of the dead men objects consecrated to the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbade the Jews to wear. So it became clear to everyone why these men had died.

1. 2 Macc -- is not in the Bible
2. Your own quote says they were guilty of idolatry as people who were under the Ten Comm Law
3. Idolatry is a mortal sin - they are stated to have died under judgment for that sin.
4. They died without absolution with mortal sin on their soul -
5. Even the RCC today could not get them out of that location in hell - by its own rules


43 He took up a collection among his soldiers which amounted to two thousand pieces of silver and sent it to Jerusalem to be offered there as a sacrifice for sin. They did all this very well and rightly inspired by their belief in the resurrection of the dead. 44 If they did not believe that their fallen companions would rise again, then it would have been a useless and foolish thing to pray for them. 45 But they firmly believed in a splendid reward for those who died as believers;

1. they took up an offering - - they did not pray to the dead or for them
2. They sent it to Jerusalem for an animal sacrifice
3. There is nothing in the law of Moses that allows for animal sacrifices to forgive the sins of the dead.. it was an ad hoc -- made-up-on-the-spot idea in 2 Macc.
4. The text says no benefit at all would be had by the dead by this act - unless they were first resurrected.

So you seem to have nothing other than "taking up an offering" in your list with no benefit at all to the dead.
 
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