Prayers to Mary

[All4Christ]

Of course they do horrible things. They are part of the apostasy as well.
Apostasy in the church and false doctrines of men

That doesn't mean all follow those atrocities. Christ doesn't force everyone to follow His will. The Fall caused Sin to corrupt this world...not the doctrines passed onto us from the early church. "Follow the Traditions we passed onto you both in word and through action" or something along those lines.

 

[All4Christ]

Besides all that, you are associating false doctrines based on your beliefs, and most likely partially based on misunderstanding of our teachings.

 

[Bessie]

We believe that there have been heresies from almost the beginning, but also that the church that Christ established has also always existed and still exists today in the Orthodox Church. Yes the Catholics went sideways in some places, but they are separate from us and that doesn't mean that there was universal apostasy.

 

[All4Christ]

Of course they do horrible things. They are part of the apostasy as well.
Apostasy in the church and false doctrines of men

The Orthodox Church participated in the Apostasy:

Perhaps you can use non-biased sources?

 

[Radrook]

Perhaps you can use non-biased sources?

That biased accusation is identical to what atheists do whenever any source contradicts their notions.

 

[All4Christ]

That biased accusation is identical to what atheists do whenever any source contradicts their notions.

That biased accusation is identical to what atheists do whenever any source contradicts their notions.

I read through it. There are 0 references to primary sources, except cherry picked Scripture. The author even admitted that he or she had no first hand experience with Orthodoxy. The "heresies" the author lists are what disagree with the author's beliefs.

 

[Radrook]

I read through it. There are 0 references to primary sources, except cherry picked Scripture. The author even admitted that he or she had no first hand experience with Orthodoxy. The "heresies" the author lists are what disagree with the author's beliefs.

Can you specifically point out exactly where he is lying please.

 

[All4Christ]

Can you specifically point out exactly where he is lying please.

As I am prepping to leave for a trip out of state (for a medical issue), I can't do that right now (I can only write short messages this morning). If one of the others don't do it first, I will do that as soon as possible.

One area I can point out immediately are the beliefs about salvation that the author claims that Orthodox Christians hold. The author doesn't understand the essence of our beliefs about salvation.

It's a rather insulting article, but as I do not put my faith in men and their opinions, I understand that the author is blinded by his / her bias, not by understanding of what we truly believe. At least the author is equally against almost all Christians. Who are we to judge salvation? For the author to judge Christianity and state that only 10% of Christians will be saved is a dangerous statement in and of itself.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Of course they do horrible things. They are part of the apostasy as well.
Apostasy in the church and false doctrines of men

The Orthodox Church participated in the Apostasy:

this article is 99% opinion, little Scripture, and zero history.

 

[buzuxi02]

r

A very important period in which the foundations of true Christian worship wee firmly and very clearly established. You are ignoring the very important fact that an apostasy from true worship...

Are you referring to "bible only" believers??? Obviously Sola scripture followers have been worshipping for only 500 years and all do it differently.
I read the book of Revelation and that worship surely resembles Orthodox worship but not protestant style worship. In Acts 5:38-39 Gamaliel tells his fellow Jews to cease persecuting the Christians because if it's not of God they will die out. Well after 2000 years we are still here while Sola scripture believers splinter, die off and reincarnate into new theories, or disappear altogether. Remembet those american settlers whose worship consisted of remaining silent for an hour? Where are they now? What has reading "only the bible" done for you? First off we already demonstrated that you do not even have a full set of scriptures, your missing quite a few books from your version. You don't believe in the communion of the saints nor appreciate the martyrs of the first three centuries that preserved Christianity. So if Christianity went apostate in 100AD, why are you following it in 2017? Why do you think God is so weak that he sent his only Son to be efficacious for 70 years only? Jesus said go out and make disciple's of all nations UNTIL 100AD?
So your books say, as soon as John wrote "The End" at the conclusion of Revelation every Christian became an apostate? So the church of Antioch was doing well using the gospel of Matthew but after the death of the last apostle they said, now that the cats are away us mice can dance", let's change everything!

 

[Radrook]

Are you referring to "bible only" believers??? Obviously Sola scripture followers have been worshipping for only 500 years and all do it differently.
I read the book of Revelation and that worship surely resembles Orthodox worship but not protestant style worship. In Acts 5:38-39 Gamaliel tells his fellow Jews to cease persecuting the Christians because if it's not of God they will die out. Well after 2000 years we are still here while Sola scripture believers splinter, die off and reincarnate into new theories, or disappear altogether. Remember those American settlers whose worship consisted of remaining silent for an hour? Where are they now? What has reading "only the bible" done for you? First off we already demonstrated that you do not even have a full set of scriptures, your missing quite a few books from your version. You don't believe in the communion of the saints nor appreciate the martyrs of the first three centuries that preserved Christianity. So if Christianity went apostate in 100AD, why are you following it in 2017? Why do you think God is so weak that he sent his only Son to be efficacious for 70 years only? Jesus said go out and make disciple's of all nations UNTIL 100AD?
So your books say, as soon as John wrote "The End" at the conclusion of Revelation every Christian became an apostate? So the church of Antioch was doing well using the gospel of Matthew but after the death of the last apostle they said, now that the cats are away us mice can dance", let's change everything!

First, please note that when I began responding on this forum and I failed to notice that it was totally dedicated to the Orthodox Catholic Church. So my commentaries were generally in reference to the Roman Catholic Church or to the history of what continued to be called Christianity even after the apostasy had set in.

About the apostasy itself, I never claimed that it SUDDENLY appeared out of nowhere immediately after the last apostle-which is said to have been John, died. The NT itself clearly tells us that the Apostasy wasn't to be a sudden appearance but a gradual transformation. In fact, the Apostle Paul describes it as being evident during his time.

2 Thessalonians 2:7
New International Version
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

The Apostle John confirms it by making reference to the churches that are severely reprimanded in the book of Revelation.

… The order of the messages to the churches seems to be divinely selected to give prophetically the main movement of church history” (John Walvoord, The Revelation of Jesus Christ, 1989, pp. 51-52).
Seven Churches of Revelation

Concerning martyrs and acts of faith during the first three centuries, I never denied that they existed nor am I attempting to dismiss them as insincere or of no value. Such sincere efforts involving bravery and willingness to die have value in God's eyes even if they might be based on inaccurate knowledge.

However, they certainly do not erase the historical fact that they occurred within the context of a general trend that saw the original Christianity gradually being transformed into something that didn't resemble it at all.

About people viewing scripture as the only means by which God provides us with guidance, you are wrong. Scripture has always been considered the only guide for mankind both in the OT and the as the following verses clearly point out.

2 Timothy 3:16 ►
New International Version
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Romans 15:4
For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures, we might have hope.

About communion, I never spoke against the celebration of the Lord's Evening meal. Clearly we are told to celebrate it in remembrance of Christ. So you are now making unfounded accusations.

1 Cor 11:24
…23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night He was betrayed, took bread, 24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”” 25In the same way, after supper He took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”…

BTW
You misunderstand the situation. A prevailing trend towards apostasy didn't mean that all true Christianity was wiped out. It only means that the general trend towards apostasy predominated. In fact, we eventually have the weird historical phenomenon of apostate Christians persecuting those who indeed were striving to live in the manner that first century Christianity prescribed. True Christianity came to be viewed as heresy by the apostates who had zealously introduced all manner of pagan practices into their worship.
Ironic isn't it? LOL!

 

[Radrook]

The New Testament only covers a brief period of the life of the Church while most of the Apostles (and Mary) were still alive. Their continued activity in the life of the Church became apparent after the books of the New Testament were written, and is in complete harmony with them.

You are ignoring the apostasy.

 

[buzuxi02]

People have always abandoned the truth, there will always be a falling away. Likewise heresy continues until it reaches a peak and then declines to death. But if apostasy is so rampant encompassing every organization, no way to decipher anything with certainty then christianity is a fraud. It means that its simply a mystery religion reserved for the few elitists.

 

[ArmyMatt]

However, they certainly do not erase the historical fact that they occurred within the context of a general trend that saw the original Christianity gradually being transformed into something that didn't resemble it at all.

what evidence do you have from the time that actually shows this? as in, actual evidence that shows the transformation?

About people viewing scripture as the only means by which God provides us with guidance, you are wrong. Scripture has always been considered the only guide for mankind both in the OT and the as the following verses clearly point out.

actually, this is incorrect. because the NT was begun being written 17 years after Pentecost, which means the Christians did not look only to Scripture for guidance because it didn't exist. plus, since this was long before the printing press and mass literacy, even if it was around it was not available to many.

also, both of your NT references were written before John wrote anything, so if we use those verses, we should not include St John's writings because St Paul was not referring to them because they did not exist yet.

In fact, we eventually have the weird historical phenomenon of apostate Christians persecuting those who indeed were striving to live in the manner that first century Christianity prescribed. True Christianity came to be viewed as heresy by the apostates who had zealously introduced all manner of pagan practices into their worship.

again, what evidence from the early history do you have that actually supports this?

 

[Radrook]

what evidence do you have from the time that actually shows this? as in, actual evidence that shows the transformation?



actually, this is incorrect. because the NT was begun being written 17 years after Pentecost, which means the Christians did not look only to Scripture for guidance because it didn't exist. plus, since this was long before the printing press and mass literacy, even if it was around it was not available to many.

also, both of your NT references were written before John wrote anything, so if we use those verses, we should not include St John's writings because St Paul was not referring to them because they did not exist yet.



again, what evidence from the early history do you have that actually supports this?

The history of Christianity and its deviation from first-century norms is common knowledge and is readily available via a google search.

The NT scripture provided clearly mentions that all things written were written for our benefit and were inspired of God. Clearly he wasn't just referring to the things written by himself other Apostles. Furthermore, brief reading of the OT would readily reveal that the OT was regarded as sacred scripture.

BTW
I never claimed that John wrote before Paul did or that Paul was referring to them. Where you are getting these ideas from is way beyond me!

 

[ArmyMatt]

The history of Christianity and its deviation from first-century norms is common knowledge and is readily available via a google search.

well, I read the article you posted, which was garbage from because pretty much all the author did was give opinion and never actually back up that he is right with actual fact. which is actually what most do. most I have read simply find something they don't agree with, claim it as pagan because it disagrees with their own exegesis without showing how or why they are reading properly.

The NT scripture provided clearly mentions that all things written were written for our benefit and were inspired of God.

which does not necessarily mean that they were the SOLE authority.

Clearly he wasn't just referring to the things written by himself other Apostles.

which again means that Scripture would not have been the sole authority. there is a difference between primary authority and sole authority.

Furthermore, brief reading of the OT would readily reveal that the OT was regarded as sacred scripture.

since the Apostles were Jews, no one disputes this. this is a moot point.

I never claimed that John wrote before Paul did or that Paul was referring to them. Where you are getting these ideas from is way beyond me!

I never claimed that you claimed that. I said was that since you referenced Paul's letters which were before John wrote anything, Paul would not have had anything from John in mind when he wrote those epistles. so Scripture being God breathed, historically at the time Paul wrote it, would not have included anything from John since he didn't write anything yet. so how do we know that John is counted as the Scripture that was written for our benefit or God breathed?

 

[Radrook]

well, I read the article you posted, which was garbage from because pretty much all the author did was give opinion and never actually back up that he is right with actual fact. which is actually what most do. most I have read simply find something they don't agree with, claim it as pagan because it disagrees with their own exegesis without showing how or why they are reading properly.



which does not necessarily mean that they were the SOLE authority.



which again means that Scripture would not have been the sole authority. there is a difference between primary authority and sole authority.



since the Apostles were Jews, no one disputes this. this is a moot point.



I never claimed that you claimed that. I said was that since you referenced Paul's letters which were before John wrote anything, Paul would not have had anything from John in mind when he wrote those epistles. so Scripture being God breathed, historically at the time Paul wrote it, would not have included anything from John since he didn't write anything yet. so how do we know that John is counted as the Scripture that was written for our benefit or God breathed?

Since I am not too keen on struggling with ad hominems , rudeness, twisting what I have said to suit your purpose, feigning incomprehension and tendencies to create straw man arguments I will not try to respond in detail to your post. Instead I will simply agree to disagree and be done with it.

BTW
Those are the same tactics used by atheists and the reason why I no longer waste my time.

 

[Radrook]

That doesn't mean all follow those atrocities. Christ doesn't force everyone to follow His will. The Fall caused Sin to corrupt this world...not the doctrines passed onto us from the early church. "Follow the Traditions we passed onto you both in word and through action" or something along those lines.

I never said that ALL follow or followed those atrocities or that Christ forces people to do his will.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Since I am not too keen on struggling with ad hominems , rudeness, twisting what I have said to suit your purpose, feigning incomprehension and tendencies to create straw man arguments I will not try to respond in detail to your post. Instead I will simply agree to disagree and be done with it.

aside that is not what I did. I did not twist anything you said, and the article posted was just that, it was an article where someone was basically posting opinion as fact, and gave nothing to back it up.

it's garbage because there is no fact, it would be ad hominem if I said HE was garbage because I don't like the article or whatever.

no straw man, no ad hominem, no twisting, and I am sorry if I came across as rude, because that was not my intent.

 

[ArmyMatt]

BTW
Those are the same tactics used by atheists and the reason why I no longer waste my time.

and I know, that is why I don't try to use them.