Prayers to Mary

[ArmyMatt]

So, it sounds like prayers may free someone from Hades only if this was a faithful person who, for some reason, was meant to go to heaven for their own good was put temporarily in Hades?

that can be the reason. remember the only time when it becomes too late is Judgment Day. God can know, because He is God, that someone is so darkened that they may temporarily go to hades.

Sounds a little like purgatory, though I understand that purgatory is normative in RCism while this Hades-thing seems to be an exception rather than the rule.

yes, these stories are rare and this is not the norm. it is not purgatory since for us, there is not purgatorial fire, there is no time per sins, it is not a third place, it is not for all the saved who still have to endure punishment for sin. so even if this were the norm, it is still nothing like purgatory.

I just know that the 2016 Council in Greece lifted up Moghlia's letter as an essential exposition of the faith. So his Hades-thing (and his stance against the laity reading the Bible) appear to me odd things to endorse, unless it was understood that the endorsement was qualified.

I did not hear this from the Council either, and I don't think Moghila was the one saying the laity should not read the Bible. and even if he was, countless saints and bishops exhort everyone to read the Scriptures.

 

[Bessie]

that can be the reason. remember the only time when it becomes too late is Judgment Day. God can know, because He is God, that someone is so darkened that they may temporarily go to hades.



yes, these stories are rare and this is not the norm. it is not purgatory since for us, there is not purgatorial fire, there is no time per sins, it is not a third place, it is not for all the saved who still have to endure punishment for sin. so even if this were the norm, it is still nothing like purgatory.



I did not hear this from the Council either, and I don't think Moghila was the one saying the laity should not read the Bible. and even if he was, countless saints and bishops exhort everyone to read the Scriptures.

However, our funeral service does refer to the fiery judgment. We don't call it purgatory and we don't get into specific definitions about time spent, but we do have a concept of the need for purification as part of the process of entering the kingdom.

 

[All4Christ]

However, our funeral service does refer to the fiery judgment. We don't call it purgatory and we don't get into specific definitions about time spent, but we do have a concept of the need for purification as part of the process of entering the kingdom.

I've heard that this also can be purification by God's love / presence. For example, the pillar of fire or bush of fire being ways God is presented as fire. By being in the presence of God fully, we are purified. I don't think the way we experience that purification is dogma.

 

[ArmyMatt]

However, our funeral service does refer to the fiery judgment. We don't call it purgatory and we don't get into specific definitions about time spent, but we do have a concept of the need for purification as part of the process of entering the kingdom.

sure, but for us that fire is the Fire of God's Presence which is what purifies

 

[Bessie]

sure, but for us that fire is the Fire of God's Presence which is what purifies

Totally. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Totally. I wasn't suggesting otherwise.

yep, just saying for the lurkers out there

 

[FireDragon76]

I think its important to note that the language of the prayers is eastern and reflects their particular way of expressing themselves, which is not always in the precise terms of western Christians. It's grandiose and hyperbolic, like you would address someone who is your superior, in those cultures.

My favorite Marian prayer is a Russian one, "O My Most Blessed Queen", from the Akathist to the Mother of God, Joy of all who Sorrow. I have a recording of it sung by the monks of St. John's in San Francisco. This is probably an excellent example of hyperbolic language:

O my most blessed Queen, O Theotokos my hope, guardian of orphans and intercessor
for strangers, Joy of the sorrowful, Protectress of the oppressed; Thou beholdest my
misfor
tune, Thou seest my sorrow. Help me, for I am infirm; feed me, for I am a
stranger. Thou knowest mine offense: do Thou absolve it, as Thou dost will, for I have
none other help but Thee, nor any other intercessor save Thee, O Mother of God. Do
Thou preserve
and protect me unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Note the plea in the prayer of having only one help and one intercessor, Mary. Obviously that is not technically accurate in terms of Orthodox theology, but it reflects the style of a lot of Orthodoxy, not just on this particular subject: to be less than precise in language when it comes to piety and devotion.

 

[ArmyMatt]

well, depending on how you define her as intercessor, it's actually very theologically accurate

 

[Radrook]

Strange that there is not one occasion where we are told to pray to Mary nor are we even provided with one example where any disciple of Jesus ever prayed to her. Instead we are told to direct our prayers to God.

Matthew 6:9
New International Version
"This, then, is how you should pray: "'Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name,

 

[prodromos]

Strange that there is not one occasion where we are told to pray to Mary nor are we even provided with one example where any disciple of Jesus ever prayed to her. Instead we are told to direct our prayers to God.

Why is it strange?

 

[Radrook]

Why is it strange?

Because if it is as basically important as is claimed-then one would expect it to be mentioned.

 

[prodromos]

Because if it is as basically important as is claimed-then one would expect it to be mentioned.

The New Testament only covers a brief period of the life of the Church while most of the Apostles (and Mary) were still alive. Their continued activity in the life of the Church became apparent after the books of the New Testament were written, and is in complete harmony with them.

 

[All4Christ]

Also, remember that praying to Mary or the saints is really asking them to intercede for us. It may not seem like a big difference, but it is a key point.

 

[Radrook]

r

The New Testament only covers a brief period of the life of the Church while most of the Apostles (and Mary) were still alive. Their continued activity in the life of the Church became apparent after the books of the New Testament were written, and is in complete harmony with them.

A very important period in which the foundations of true Christian worship wee firmly and very clearly established. You are ignoring the very important fact that an apostasy from true worship was foretold and is generally recognized as having occurred after the last of the Apostles died.

BTW
Quality of time is more important than quantity of time. A brief period in a man's life in which he is properly serving God is far more important than the rest of his life during which time he lived in unrepentant sin while claiming to worship God.

Acts 20:29

New International Version
I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

This apostasy event had been foretold to occur and illustrated by the following parable where the Jesus compares the apostle’s death as sleep and the false Christians are represented as weed that the enemy[the devil] sowed in.

Matt 13:

24Jesus presented another parable to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was asleep, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and slipped away. 26When the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the weeds also appeared.…

That’s exactly what happened with Christianity. That’s why we see people claiming to be Christians while savagely slaughtering one another during the time after the first century and living lives of sin up to the hilt while proclaiming Jesus as their Lord up to right now.

 

[Bessie]

You are ignoring the very important fact that an apostasy from true worship was foretold and is generally recognized as having occurred after the last of the Apostles died.

Generally recognized by certain brands of Protestants, we don't believe this occurred.

 

[Radrook]

Generally recognized by certain brands of Protestants, we don't believe this occurred.

If indeed The Catholic Church doesn't believe it occurred then why did it eliminate the things it was being severely criticized for? If everything was OK as you say, then nothing would have needed to be changed. Or aren't you aware of the drastic changes hat were instituted in recognition that many things were wrong and needed to be eliminated, such as the bloody Inquisition during which people were tortured savagely prior to being roasted alive in public squares while CC members enthusiastically gathered to view it as a form of entertainment. Or demanding that of money be paid to to priests in order to have people supposedly removed from a purgatory. Or purposefully instigating supposedly holy wars against unbelievers such as the Crusades during which more cruelty was demonstrated by the so-called Christians than by the heathen who were supposed to have been demonic but who behaved far more civilized. If so, then you need to become familiar with basic CC history.

 

[All4Christ]

If indeed The Catholic Church doesn't believe it occurred then why did it eliminate the things it was being severely criticized for? If everything was OK as you say, then nothing would have needed to be changed. Or aren't you aware of the drastic changes hat were instituted in recognition that many things were wrong and needed to be eliminated such as the bloody Inquisition during which people were tortured savagely prior to being roasted alive in public squares while CC members enthusiastically gathered to view it as a form of entertainment? If so, then you need to become familiar with basic CC history.

FTR, we are not the Catholic Church. We are the Orthodox Church, which is not in communion with the Catholic Church. We haven't been in communion for almost 1000 years (though I wish the schism didn't have the need to happen).

 

[Radrook]

FTR, we are not the Catholic Church. We are the Orthodox Church, which is not in communion with the Catholic Church. We haven't been in communion for almost 1000 years (though I wish the schism didn't have the need to happen).

That doesn't nullify what happened to Christianity after the Apostles died as had been foretold it would.

 

[All4Christ]

That doesn't nullify what happened to Christianity after the Apostles died..

Most of what you referenced was not something we condoned. I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but I doubt they all approved. Plenty of people in Protestant Churches also do horrible things in the name of religion.

ETA: Besides, many of those martyred believed as we do. They stood for the faith and wouldn't deviate from it. They were persecuted because of it.

 

[Radrook]

Most of what you refeeenced was not something we condoned. I can't speak for the Catholic Church, but I doubt they all approved. Plenty of people in Protestant Churches also do horrible things in the name of religion.

Of course they do horrible things. They are part of the apostasy as well.
Apostasy in the church and false doctrines of men

The Orthodox Church participated in the Apostasy:

The Orthodox Catholic Churches

These churches have about one hundred fifty million followers. This church is much the same as the Roman Catholics although some of the Roman Catholic heresies are not taught. However, they have added heresies of their own. They teach that members are saved by the teachings and traditions of the church, by the sacraments of the church, and through praying to icons. The essential doctrine of being saved by faith is not taught. This institutional church is mostly apostate and the church in general has done few good works on the earth. I doubt if there is a significant number of true Christians within the Orthodox Catholic Church....　 Apostasy in the church and false doctrines of men